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Pope Francis Hospitalized For Bronchitis Treatment, Tests; Zelenskyy: I Don't See That U.S. Has "Ready-Made Plan" To End War; Rep. Debbie Dingell (D-MI) On HHS Sec. RFK Jr.'s Confirmation As HHS Secretary. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired February 14, 2025 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Now, the Pope is going to be in Gemelli Hospital behind me on the 10th floor. There's a special suite of rooms for the Pope where he will be treated and where he will have tests.

The Pope has been determined to keep going with a very, very hectic schedule in recent days despite this bronchitis. He's been asking for aides to read his addresses and speeches because he hasn't been able to deliver them, and he's been having lots of meetings. But it's clearly a moment where he needs to stop. He needs to be tested properly, and he needs to receive sustained treatment.

The Pope is 88 years old. He has been vulnerable to these respiratory infections in the past. He's been hospitalized for bronchitis in recent years and when he was a young man had part of his right lung removed. So there is that vulnerability that the Pope has to these infections.

So we'll have to see what happens in the coming days. The Vatican has announced that the Pope will not have any audiences over the next three days while he has this treatment -- Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah, three days at least. We'll have to stay updated on what we can learn once he is -- once -- as he is getting admitted.

Thank you so much, Christopher, for that reporting -- John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Just moments ago pretty harsh criticism of Defense Sec. Pete Hegseth by the Republican chair of the Senate Armed Services Committee Roger Wicker.

This came in an interview with our friend Jonathan Martin just published in Politico in response to Hegseth ruling out Ukraine joining NATO. Wicker told Politico he was "puzzled and disturbed." He said Hegseth "made a rookie mistake in Brussels, and he's walked back some of what he said but not that line...I don't know who wrote the speech," Wicker said. "It is the kind of thing Tucker Carlson could have written, and Carlson is a fool." Again, this is Roger Wicker, the Republican chair of the Armed Services Committee. "I prefer we didn't give away negotiating positions before we actually get started talking about the end of the Russia-Ukraine war."

All right. Also just a short time ago Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said the U.S. -- that he does not believe the U.S. has a plan for settling the conflict in his country. A lot going on. A lot being walked in, walked back.

With us now, CNN global affairs analyst Kim Dozier, and CNN chief national security analyst Jim Sciutto.

Couple what happened with Hegseth -- Hegseth saying what he said --

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yeah.

BERMAN: -- and walking part of it back now with J.D. Vance, the vice president, giving the interview with The Wall Street Journal where he said there are economic tools of leverage on Russia and, of course, military tools of leverage. But now there's some questions being raised about whether he meant military or not.

But --

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

BERMAN: -- what's the situation with message calibration right now, Jim?

SCIUTTO: Listen, I think the only words and comments that matter are Trump's, right? That despite the mixed messages you hear from Hegseth or from others involved -- GOP senators included -- listen to what Trump's saying. And Trump has been quite clear in seeding ground on a number of positions to Russia. And this is why as our Fred Pleitgen, our colleague, is saying in Russia they are celebrating what they're hearing from Trump.

One, Trump has said Ukraine will not be in NATO and never should be. And Trump went so far as to say it was discussion of that that caused the war, right? I mean, that's a -- that's a straight-up Kremlin talking point to justify its invasion.

Trump has said Ukraine will not get back all of its territory -- in effect, seeding territory Ukrainian sovereign territory at the start of negotiations. Trump has said the U.S. will not be involved militarily there. And now Trump is saying Russia should be invited back into the G7, which it was kicked out of because of the Ukraine -- the invasion.

He's the commander in chief and regardless of any walk back you hear from Hegseth or criticism you hear from Republicans in the Senate still willing to speak out publicly on this, right, Trump is the one driving this train, right, and the train is going in one direction -- and that is ending this war and if need be forcing that man's hand to take -- to take -- to make concessions he frankly doesn't want to make.

BERMAN: It -- you know, Kim, it makes me think about a quote I read in The New York Times, and I can't remember who specifically it was from, but it was suggesting that President Trump likes to suggest that his foreign policy -- his peace through strength -- but where is the strength, this person asked? Does Russia see strength in this?

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: What Russia sees is positive messages all around.

Look, Hegseth used some hedging language. He's talked about it being unlikely and unrealistic that Ukraine would join NATO and that it would get back all of its territory from the 2014 and 2022 invasion. But all Russia heard -- all Europe heard was that the U.S. was backing out on -- you know, the Washington NATO summit last year -- yes, it was under Biden, but NATO members pledged for an irreversible pathway for Ukraine's NATO membership.

[07:35:05]

And now you've got various Trump administration officials backing out in different ways. Then you've got Vance coming in and saying no, everything's still on the table.

But to Jim's point, in the Oval Office, Trump's made comments like well, Russia says that NATO troops in Ukraine and NATO membership is a nonstarter, so that's the way it is.

It's as if, you know, he's willing to bully Greenland. He's willing --

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

DOZIER: -- to bully European nations about tariffs, but not Moscow.

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

BERMAN: So that is something to be sure, Jim.

Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the Ukrainian leader, suggesting or saying that he doesn't see that the U.S. has a plan to end a war.

Where do you think he's looking right now --

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

BERMAN: -- for help and for guidance?

SCIUTTO: He's scared, right? I mean, because as he's often said it's an existential fight for Ukraine. He's trying to survive and keep Ukraine alive as an independent state from Russia. And remember, Russia's intention was to absorb the entire country. That was their plan. They weren't talking about playing footsie with Ukraine. They wanted to take it over.

My sense is that Ukraine right now is looking for some hope from the U.S. but frankly, it's greatest hope lying with its European allies right now.

And a European leader noted to me just in the last 24 hours that if you add up the support for Ukraine's military right now, more than half of it comes from Ukraine itself in financial terms, weapons terms. About 25 percent from Europe and 20 percent from the U.S. So if the U.S. removes that 20 percent, it's significant but it's not deadly.

And the plan going forward may be that Ukraine and Europe are on their own, right, with if not no U.S. support than limited U.S. support.

We should note John that when you listen to Hegseth's and other's comments -- Vance, too -- and Trump -- they're not just talking about pulling back from Ukraine. They're talking about pulling back from Europe as a whole. A less of U.S. involvement in Europe's security. This is a massive -- it's a massive shift for the U.S.

BERMAN: What does Europe hear there, Kim? That segues into what I was going to ask you. Does Europe feel as if it can or should be committing more resources to Ukraine?

DOZIER: They've been discussing it behind closed doors. And the officials I've been in touch with -- they're talking about we are fully aware that we're going to have to eventually go it alone, especially when they look at Trump referring to Putin as someone he can "trust" on this issue of Ukraine. This is a guy who has been indicted in the international criminal court for war crimes and isn't welcome in just about any European capital.

So his turnabout on his warmth towards Putin has him being hailed in London by politicians of all political stripes as another Neville Chamberlain. That was the British prime minister who traded away European territory in hopes of dissuading Hitler from invading anywhere else. And a year later Hitler started his conquest of Europe.

BERMAN: Give him a little bit of Czechoslovakia in hopes he wouldn't take the rest, and then he went and took the rest.

Jim Sciutto, Kim Dozier, thank you both for being here -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: RFK Jr. has been confirmed and also just been sworn in as the Secretary of Health and Human Services, now heading up America's public health agencies. And in some of his first comments as secretary, the known vaccine cynic said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: I'm not going to take away anybody's vaccine. If people are happy with their vaccines, they ought to be able to get them. What we're going to do is give people good science. We don't have good safety studies on almost any of the vaccines.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Now that is the very same language that Kennedy has used for years and also used during confirmation hearings to win over support from skeptical Republicans for his confirmation hearing -- for his confirmation, saying that the country does not have good safety studies on vaccines.

Well, doctor after doctor and expert after expert say that's not true. The science around approved vaccines is safe and publicly available.

Here is what the director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, Dr. Paul Offit, has told us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. PAUL OFFIT, DIRECTOR, VACCINE EDUCATION CENTER, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: There has been dozens of studies showing that there is no association between getting a vaccine and developing autism. He says if the data are there. RFK Jr. says if the data are there. What is he talking about? Of course, the data are there. He just ignores those data because it doesn't fix with his -- fit in with his fixed immutable science-resistant hypothesis that vaccines cause autism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[07:40:10]

BOLDUAN: And now after RFK Jr.'s confirmation the Louisiana Department of Health says it will no longer promote mass vaccination programs.

CNN's Meg Tirrell has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: We've learned that Louisiana's surgeon general sent out a directive to state health workers saying that while they've historically promoted vaccines for vaccine-preventable illnesses, going forward, "While they encourage each patient to discuss the risks and benefits of vaccination with their provider, the Louisiana Department of Health will no longer promote mass vaccination."

In that same memo to health workers he emphasized that health workers should treat vaccines with nuance, and he said they should recognize the differences between seasonal vaccines and childhood immunizations, which he said were an important part of providing immunity to our children.

Now, I talked with the New Orleans Public Health Department director Dr. Jennifer Avegno about this, and she expressed alarm at hearing that this was being communicated. She said she'd already started to feel this from the state that they had been pulling back from mass vaccination events that they had run together in the past where she said together, they vaccinated hundreds and hundreds of people against, particularly, seasonal viruses.

And she said that New Orleans is trying to fill in that gap. She said they're an independent public health agency, so they don't have to abide by this directive, and she said they're not planning on abiding by the directive.

But she said it's really worrisome because already you've seen Louisiana's childhood vaccination rate decline, she said. And she pointed out particularly, they've had a really bad flu season. It's been severe nationally, but she said it's been especially bad in Louisiana.

And if you look at vaccination rates in the state, they have been declining for kids for the flu vaccine. They're now down to 11 percent for the most recent season. That compares with 42 percent nationally, which health experts say is too low.

They say when you start to get communications that are fuzzy -- that really are not clear with people around the importance of vaccination, then you start to see vaccination rates go down and you start to see outbreaks go up. So folks are quite concerned that we may see this in other states.

Avegno also told us she didn't think it was coincidental that this directive came out on Thursday -- the same day that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. was sworn in as Health and Human Services secretary. And, of course, he has made comments questioning the safety and the efficacy of vaccines, which experts in this space say are not accurate.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BOLDUAN: Meg Tirrell, thank you so much for that.

And Joining me right now is the Democratic Congresswoman from Michigan, Debbie Dingell. It's good to see you again, Congresswoman.

You are sitting in Ann Arbor, home to one of the best medical systems in the country with the University of Michigan.

What do you think RFK Jr. means for public health in the U.S. and for your constituents?

REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI) (via Webex by Cisco): Well, good morning, Kate.

I've been spending a lot of time at -- with my doctors and nurses at the hospital. I actually do rounds with the head of the hospital every couple of months, and I've been there a lot more lately because of the researchers' concerns.

I mean, what's already happening because of NIH cuts last week, research has stopped. These scientists who have found cures or are finding solutions for liver cancer, brain cancer -- some of the most difficult cancers -- that research has been stopped.

But I've spent a lot of time with the pediatricians, too. I like to go over to my hospital, and they're worried.

Look, I am actually somebody who got Guillain-Barre from a flu shot, so I studied this a lot. And I am afraid of shots, but I did a lot of studying before I got COVID. We don't want to see measle outbreaks. We don't want to see smallpox come back. We have to -- we have to educate people; not make people fearful.

And this is a very scary time right now in this country for health care. And they're going to cut Medicaid, too, which is how so many children in this country -- it's their only source of health care -- seniors, too -- long-term care.

BOLDUAN: And the question remains what can Congress do about it? Because I ask that because Sen. Lisa Murkowski -- she's a Republican who was, I'll call it hesitant to support RFK Jr. She took her time in pushing him, asking very tough questions.

After she eventually did vote in support of him, she told reporters this after the vote. "I think there are many of us who have asked for specific commitments, most specifically related to vaccines, and we want to be able to hold him accountable to that so we're going to be checking in, we're going to be calling him in, and we're going to be following through."

Do you think that is going to be enough?

[07:45:00]

DINGELL: Well, I think Congress has got to use all of the tools at its disposal and we've got litigation too. I think litigation, legislation, education, advocation, and communication are going to be really important.

Look, I have a very blunt talk with him, and I've obviously known his family forever. He and I have both had injuries from vaccines. It doesn't make me not get vaccines.

I knew to get COVID. I had to get COVID because I was scared to death. I mean, I would tell people how scared to death I was. And the first time I got the shot I waited to die. I didn't die. I became part of helping not spread COVID or making it worse.

And I plan -- and he assured me now, but that -- I mean, we had to hold him accountable that he wasn't going to stop those vaccines.

Look, I'll give you another example. I just had RSV. I hadn't gotten the RSV vaccine this year because I thought it was like the flu shot. Well, it's not a live vaccine and I won't make the mistake of not getting an RSV vaccine next year.

He's got to educate people. We've got to be educated consumers. But he cannot discourage people from getting vaccinations because they save lives. Children don't die of polio or smallpox now because those vaccines are there.

BOLDUAN: I am -- I am so sorry that you were -- you were -- you had RSV. And I didn't even -- I really -- and I've known you a long time. I did not know the history of -- that you've had with vaccines and the long road that it's been. That's a really important perspective that you bring to this conversation being skeptical -- yeah.

DINGELL: It makes me be educated.

BOLDUAN: Yeah. Yeah. It's -- I really didn't even know that.

DINGELL: I'm educated. Skeptical is not the right word. I know vaccines make a difference in life. Some people, something happens to. It doesn't mean you say no. They do save lives. And that's what I never forget -- having had a very negative experience. I want my community to be safe, so we have to talk it through. But you've got to --

What his responsibility to do is to not be anti-vaccine but to make sure that they are safe.

BOLDUAN: Um-hum.

Another topic I want to ask you about is tariffs. The tariffs on steel and aluminum that are -- all steel and aluminum coming into the United States.

President Trump was asked yesterday if he had heard or what he had heard from businessowners and CEOs about this. If he had heard it was a good thing in places like -- the question was referencing Pennsylvania.

Let me play for you what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They are in love with it, as you know. In Pennsylvania, U.S. Steel is through the roof. They're all through the roof. That's why I didn't want U.S. Steel to make a deal with Japan or anybody else. I think it's going to do great. But I think maybe more than anybody else the steel companies and aluminum companies, they're in love with what's happened. And this will eventually be the car companies and chip companies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: I mean, I heard from economists like Larry Summers, though, that these tariffs in particular are going to cause prices to rise and he -- and he says hurt job creation.

What are you hearing? I mean, these questions are central to your state. What are you hearing from the auto industry?

DINGELL: Remember, I'm someone who says -- I actually probably agree with Donald Trump more than many Republicans do on tariffs as a tool in the toolbox. And I do believe that.

I've worked with him very closely on NAFTA. It was the worst trade policy that we've seen in our history, and we needed to do something. And by the way, we need to immediately renegotiate USMCA, which replaced NAFTA, so China can't go into Mexico, build a plant, and call itself a North America product. The way that he's doing it straight across the board, it's a -- you've

got to do it as a part of a strategy -- a strategic focus, not just do it straight across the board. The workers want to see their jobs come back.

We need to build steel in this country. It's a -- it is a national security issue. We cannot be reliant on other countries, so we need to bring it back. But we need to do it in a way that the companies have time to plan. They can integrate it into their plan. It shouldn't be straight across the board.

But quite frankly, tariffs in steel, aluminum, cars, manufacturing -- it's one of the most important tools you have in leveling the playing field for manufacturing industries.

BOLDUAN: It's good to see you, Congresswoman. Thank you so much.

Coming up for us businesses are on edge this Valentine's Day. Why shoppers in one community say they are too afraid to go buy flowers.

And a father and son's South American adventure took a biblical turn as they kayaked and encountered a whale.

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:54:35]

BERMAN: So new this morning, it is Valentine's Day, so happy day to those who observe. It is one of the biggest days of the year for flower vendors but many shop owners are on edge this morning over the president's immigration policy.

CNN's Julia Vargas Jones is live in Los Angeles' flower district where I think you can see the impact of this, Julia.

[07:55:00]

JULIA VARGAS JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, you can. This is the largest flower district in the country, John. They've been working around the clock here. They haven't closed since last night hoping that a bump in sales from Valentine's Day will help them make up for the slow days that they've had in the past few weeks.

This is, of course, fears of immigration actions that we hear are coming to Los Angeles, similar to Chicago and New York, could impact this industry -- $1.1 billion moved in this six-block radius in Los Angeles. So this is an industry that one of the directors here of the Los Angeles Flower Market tells us is moved by immigrants. It is an immigrant community.

If you've ever seen, John, a vendor selling flowers in the Los Angeles streets, it is likely that they got those flowers from here. It's not just those vendors -- the customers that are coming here as well.

And another layer to this. The vendors here are saying that the fear of tariffs could also affect them. The U.S. is the largest importer of flowers in the world. Most of them -- we're seeing boxes here from Ecuador, Colombia, Canada. All of that impact could be massive.

But the good news is that California is still one of the least -- the least expensive state to buy a dozen roses. I already got my bouquet this morning, John -- 12 beautiful roses. Happy Valentine's to you guys as well.

BERMAN: They are lovely, and it serves as an excellent reminder for some people theoretically who I will not name. Nice to see you, Julia Vargas Jones. Appreciate your reporting on this -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: One of the few good reasons you wake up before anyone else in the entire world. It gives you a little extra time to remember the to-do.

BERMAN: Oh, yeah.

BOLDUAN: All right. More headlines that we're tracking this morning.

You can download TikTok again from Apple's Appstore and Google Play. The app was unavailable to download as of January 18, of course, after the Supreme Court upheld the law passed last year banning the app in the United States over national security concerns.

TikTok's Chinese owner ByteDance fought the ban on free speech grounds. Obviously, the Supreme Court -- we know how they decided.

The app briefly went dark, but President Trump has now delayed enforcement of the ban for 75 days to allow for more negotiations toward a sale to a U.S. owner -- a new U.S. owner.

And whiteout conditions -- it caused a major pileup on an Oregon highway on Thursday. Authorities -- they had to shut down portions of Interstate 84 outside of Portland after the winter storm caused as many as 30 cars to crash. A number of injuries were reported. One SUV even caught fire. Everyone got out and is safe -- got out of that one safely. The interstate has reopened since, but winter storm warnings remain in effect this morning.

This story is straight-up crazy pants and something everyone who plays in the ocean has wondered about, I'm sure. A man named Adrian was kayaking off the coast of Chile last Saturday and a humpback whale literally swallowed the 24-year-old whole. It was only for a few moments though, and then the whale spat Adrian back out. His father captured the entire thing on video, and they were able to paddle away.

Because I know also what you are now wondering is what the heck does it feel like to be swallowed by an enormous whale? Well, Adrian's take -- he didn't know what was happening and thought he was going to die, and then suddenly he's back out on the surface of the water. Completely insane. He also described the entire experience as slimy -- John.

BERMAN: I just think we don't look at this from the whale's perspective, right?

BOLDUAN: And what are your thoughts on that? BERMAN: I mean, you know, what does a kayaker taste like? I bet it doesn't taste like krill or a small crustacean, for instance.

BOLDUAN: No. I think he said I have something stuck in my teeth.

BERMAN: That's probably right.

BOLDUAN: And he's like they don't make floss this big. So, you know, that's what we'd do.

BERMAN: All right, point taken.

BOLDUAN: OK?

BERMAN: This morning NASA says it may be able to bring home astronauts Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams after more than eight months in space, finally.

CNN's Anderson Cooper spoke to them from the International Space Station. Anderson wasn't there but they were.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR, "AC 360": Commander Williams, what does it feel like to be floating around all that time? I mean, I was going to ask the captain, but his hair is pretty short. What are -- I mean, your hair is up all the time. Is that -- does it feel weird?

SUNI WILLIAMS, NASA ASTRONAUT: You know, it's a lot of fun. I like my crazy hair up here. It's sort of -- it gets a little Einstein look, so it's cool.

Both of us have lived here before and it is just amazing how when you come across the hatch after you've been here it's like oh my gosh, I remember what this is all like. I remember feeling what it's like floating. And I think both of us adapted really quickly. And I think -- I'm hoping the same will be true when we come back home.

COOPER: Yeah. How much time does it take to adapt when you land again?

WILLIAMS: Yeah. That's going to be a little bit hard, as usual. I've been up twice before for long duration missions and it's almost a day for a day that you get that, like, fast twitch muscle action back again. But I think both of us will be a little bit sad when that feeling of space sort of leaves us after about 24 hours and we're not a little bit, like, motion sickness from coming back home.