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Trump Attacks Ukrainian President; Eric Adams Case in Court; Chaos and Confusion in Trump Administration. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired February 19, 2025 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:15]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: You're fired and then rehired. The federal government forced to claw back terminations after realizing the country actually needs these workers. The latest on a chaotic government overhaul.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Plus, the political future of New York City Mayor Eric Adams hanging in the balance today. Next hour, a federal judge will consider the controversial motion to dismiss the corruption charges against him, the move setting off a series of resignations from City Hall to the Justice Department.

And echoing the Kremlin, President Trump calling Ukrainian President Zelenskyy a dictator after falsely accusing Ukraine of starting the war with Russia. Zelenskyy says Trump lives in a disinformation space.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SANCHEZ: We start this afternoon with chaos and confusion boiling over, as President Trump and his government efficiency team slash away at federal agencies.

Officials tell CNN the Defense Department is now on the chopping block, bracing for cuts to its civilian work force that could come at any moment. Widespread layoffs are happening so fast that DOGE is now scrambling to clean up a mess after it fired thousands of federal workers last week by trying to get some of them back.

We're learning the Department of Veterans Affairs just reinstated about a dozen employees who provide support to vets through its crisis line. And the USDA says that it's working to revoke termination letters sent to staff working on bird flu response efforts.

Let's turn now to CNN's Natasha Bertrand, who's been tracking impacts at the Pentagon.

Natasha, what are you learning about these impending cuts?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Boris, these possible cuts could impact thousands and thousands of civilian employees inside the Pentagon. We are told that DOGE staffers began meeting with senior Pentagon officials on Friday, and they have continued to work inside the building, trying to find office space, trying to get clearances, and basically set up the infrastructure inside the Pentagon to continue working on all of these cuts.

Now, we're told that the combatant commands, which are the major military commands globally, they were asked to submit lists of probationary employees to OPM, to the Office of Personnel Management, by the end of the day yesterday to potentially cut them.

Now, probationary employees, the civilian employees inside the Pentagon, they typically have been on the job for about a year, and therefore they have less protections, fewer protections than full-time -- than employees who have been there longer.

Now, that probationary period can also be extended to two or three years, but, broadly, these are civilian employees who have been on the job for about a year or less, and, therefore, they are essentially easier to fire.

Now, it's unclear just how many employees are going to be terminated. Again, the Pentagon has been drawing up lists of all of these civilian employees who could be on the chopping block, but, broadly, the Defense Department has about 950,000 civilian employees who conduct pretty critical functions every day at the Department of Defense, including roles like intelligence, cybersecurity, foreign military sales, a lot of things that are really important to the day-to-day functions of the U.S. military, including operations.

And so it remains to be seen whether any exemptions are going to be made here to the broad swathe of possible terminations. We are told that defense officials have been scrambling to try to come up with exemptions for the people that are in the most critical national security roles, Boris.

SANCHEZ: We will see how it turns out.

Natasha Bertrand, thank you so much for that update.

Let's pivot now to the USDA with CNN's Meg Tirrell, who's been tracking what's been happening at that agency.

So, Meg, walk us through this story, these folks that were working on bird flu suddenly rehired.

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Boris, I mean, the USDA tells us that they're prioritizing the bird flu response, and so several categories of workers were supposed to be exempt from these terminations.

They say those categories include people in emergency response roles, veterinarians, animal health technicians, folks who were working to support the HPAI response -- that's the highly pathogenic avian influenza response -- and they say other animal health priorities.

So they told us in a statement that -- quote -- "Although several positions supporting HPAI," or bird flu, "were notified of their terminations over the weekend," they say, "we are working to swiftly rectify the situation and rescind those letters."

We have asked just how many people that applies to. Boris, at the same time, I have heard from a source at CDC that the same thing is happening there. They say that they are trying to rescind terminations of workers either that had protections or who do jobs that nobody else can do.

[13:05:07]

We don't know if that's specifically related to bird flu or to other things, but that's amid more than 700 jobs that were terminated at CDC since Friday, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Meg Tirrell, thank you so much for an update on that -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Happening now, government employees are rallying in cities across the U.S. They say they're taking a stand against Elon Musk and DOGE as the Trump administration makes sweeping cuts to numerous federal agencies.

With us now is Arielle Kane, a federal worker who is fired from her role as a social science research analyst at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.

Arielle, thanks for being with us.

And just give us a sense. Tell us what you were working on at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation, because you actually tweeted at Elon Musk about it.

ARIELLE KANE, FORMER CENTERS FOR MEDICARE AND MEDICAID SERVICES EMPLOYEE: Thank you so much for having me.

So I worked at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation, which was a small office inside of the larger agency that runs Medicare and Medicaid. And the goal of all of our programs is to make Medicare and Medicaid more efficient and improve outcomes.

I was specifically staffed to a maternal health project. So we were working on improving maternal health outcomes in Medicaid, and we were trying to do that at lower costs. And so it's particularly frustrating because it feels like our office was actually very well aligned with the mission of DOGE.

Not all of the models have been financially -- or have generated savings, but they have all improved outcomes or made some sort of positive change. But if the models don't accrue savings, they're terminated and so that we can keep things running efficiently.

KEILAR: So why were you terminated? What did they tell you? And what was the process? Was this a -- did someone call you into an office? Was this a phone call?

KANE: Oh, gosh, no, it was not that organized.

From what I understand, the leadership at my office still doesn't even know who all was terminated over the weekend. I'd obviously been following the news, and I knew that they were firing people across HHS agencies and they were mostly firing people who were in this probationary period, which I was.

And so I felt very nervous, but I had been assured by our leadership that they had asked for exemptions and that we were aligned with the mission of the administration and that we should be OK. Then, Saturday morning, I got a panic text from my boss that said: "Call me. They're firing people. Everything we learned yesterday was a lie."

And later that day, I got an e-mail that indeed said I had been fired, and I had to call my own boss and let him know that I had been on that list.

KEILAR: So, if leadership -- if you -- wasn't aware who was being fired, who made the decision?

KANE: They're still not aware.

KEILAR: Still not aware. Who made the decision? Who fired you?

KANE: I'd love to know that. Yes, I mean, I assume it came from someone at DOGE, again, based on the news.

And they apparently were reviewing people's job titles. And the explanations that our managers had given for our positions had to be 200 characters or less, so basically a tweet. And I guess, based on that information that they had, they cut everyone across CMMI who was in the probationary period.

KEILAR: So was it an e-mail?

KANE: It was an e-mail with two attachments. And as soon as you open the e-mail, roughly an hour later, you lost access to your computer.

KEILAR: And so what are you thinking? I mean, how are you -- how are you feeling about your personal situation, but also about the mission of your program and what it's going to do without folks like you?

KANE: Yes, I mean, personally, I'm really upset. Like, this was my dream job that I had worked many years to get. And I was so excited to be on my team doing the work I was doing.

I'm also outraged for my colleagues. One of my colleagues had actually been at CMS for nine years, but had recently been promoted. And so he was in a probationary category again because of his promotion, which, of course, he earned because he was doing good work.

And he's also a veteran. He had been deployed to Iraq and Kuwait. And so to see my colleagues being treated like this kind of fuels my fire. But then, finally, I'm worried about the work. I believed in the mission of CMMI. Again, as I mentioned at the opening, not every model has been

successful, but I believe that, even when you learn things that don't work, that's a lesson worth learning, because, in health care, it's really complicated. I believe our president has said that in the past.

[13:10:00]

And so as we try and make it better and try and make it more efficient, it's important to test things on a smaller scale before we take them nationwide, and so that we aren't taking things nationwide that don't work.

And I'm really worried, particularly the maternal health project. Like, the maternal health outcomes in this country are embarrassing, frankly, and we were going to be working on making them better. And I'm worried, when you cut a third of that team -- and I know more team members feel very, very vulnerable -- I just wonder what happens to that work.

KEILAR: Yes, that's a big question.

Arielle, thank you for being with us. We're very sorry about what you're dealing with. Thanks for taking the time.

KANE: Thank you for having me.

KEILAR: Boris.

SANCHEZ: Just under an hour from now, a federal judge is set to consider the Justice Department's request to dismiss corruption charges against New York Mayor Eric Adams.

The DOJ argues that continuing the case not only hinders the mayor's ability to govern, but also interferes with President Trump's immigration crackdown. At least eight federal prosecutors have resigned in protest, some of them alleging a quid pro quo, allegations that the DOJ and the mayor deny.

Let's take you now live outside the courthouse with CNN's Paula Reid.

Paula, what can we expect from this hearing?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Boris, something that we're seeing just in the past few minutes, a big pivot from the Justice Department.

Now, we know the Justice Department has been under fire since they first announced this move to dismiss this case. This set off a controversy, including over half-a-dozen prosecutors, including the Trump-picked U.S. attorney here in Manhattan, resigning over this decision.

And just moments ago, Attorney General Pam Bondi's chief of staff, Chad Mizelle, he started a Twitter thread laying out a more legalistic explanation for why they want this case dismissed. This is the first time that we have heard them talking about sort of concrete reasons beyond immigration enforcement, right?

Because the concern was that, initially, when the deputy attorney general sent the memo saying that this needed to be dismissed, he specifically said that the decision was not based on the merits of the case or assessing any legal theories. That's what set off the concern about a quid pro quo, because their argument was that this case should be dismissed so that he would have more time to contribute to immigration enforcement, a key priority of President Trump.

But in his Twitter thread, Mizelle goes through a lot of reasons that he believes this case should be dismissed, including the enormous amount of resources it would take to bring a case like this. He also goes through in this extensive Twitter thread past cases, public corruption cases that have failed.

It is true that, while, overall, they have had a lot of success at the Justice Department, prosecuting corruption, they have had a lot of very high-profile missteps and cases dismissed. Even a very prominent conviction that they got against the former governor of Virginia was eventually overturned by the Supreme Court. And it has made successfully prosecuting corruption cases more difficult.

Now, this is the kind of legal argument that may or may not win in court, but this is certainly a more substantive argument than that was made in the initial memo that set off the firestorm inside DOJ. So I think it's significant that, just moments before this hearing, we are getting a more legalistic argument out of the Justice Department coming directly from the attorney general's chief of staff.

And we will be watching to see what the judge inside says about this. Emil Bove, the deputy attorney general who sent that memo, he is going to be inside court today. I'm told by a source familiar with his thinking that he thought it was important to have a senior member of the Justice Department leadership in court today to defend this decision.

So we will be watching to see what kind of questions the judge has for the Justice Department, how many of these new arguments, these more precedent-based arguments, come up as they defend this. But it does appear that the Justice Department, in the wake of this enormous controversy, is pivoting to a more substantive defense of this decision.

SANCHEZ: Yes, it'll be interesting to see what happens there.

So there's the legal fight and then there is the political question of what New York Governor Kathy Hochul might actually do with Eric Adams. She held an important meeting with Democrats discussing just that. Bring us up to speed on that angle of things.

REID: Yes, that's right.

She is meeting with other officials to discuss the possibility of trying to remove the mayor. Now, that is easier said than done. I think they're also watching right now to see what happens in this hearing, so no imminent decision, but she is certainly facing a lot of political pressure, based on the controversy that this decision by the Justice Department has set off.

So, first, we will see what happens inside this hearing, looking to see if the judge is just going to have some critical words for DOJ, or if there's any sign that the judge might reject this move to dismiss the case. I do think that these new arguments the Justice Department is putting out in the last hour, these certainly put the Justice Department on more solid ground, because it is rare for judges to reject these kinds of motions to dismiss.

[13:15:08]

SANCHEZ: Yes.

REID: But this is, of course, an extraordinary situation and the first big test inside a courtroom for the Trump Justice Department not related to DOGE or executive orders.

SANCHEZ: An extraordinary situation and one that we will be tracking closely.

Paula Reid live outside the courthouse in Manhattan, thank you so much.

Still to come this hour: a war of words, Trump attacking President Zelenskyy of Ukraine as a dictator, while Zelenskyy says Trump lives in a disinformation bubble. How this tit for tat could potentially impact peace talks.

Plus, the wreckage of that Delta plane that crashed on Monday is due to be cleared from the runway today in Toronto. The latest details on that investigation.

And the Vatican says that Pope Francis is fighting pneumonia in both lungs. We will take you live to Rome for an update on the pontiff's health when we come back.

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[13:20:25]

KEILAR: President Trump is parroting Russian talking points again about Ukraine today after falsely claiming yesterday that Ukraine started the war with Russia.

Just a short time ago, Trump posted a long rebuke of Zelenskyy on TRUTH Social that includes this quote: "He refuses to have elections, is very low in Ukrainian polls, and the only thing he was good at was playing Biden like a fiddle, a dictator without elections. Zelenskyy better move faster or he is not going to have a country left."

So, a lot of factual problems with that post. We should note Trump posting it just hours after Zelenskyy made an appeal to Trump and his team for more truth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Unfortunately, President Trump, I have great respect for him as a leader of a nation that we have great respect for, the American people, who always support us, unfortunately lives in this disinformation space.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: That appeal clearly unanswered.

We have CNN anchor and chief national security analyst Jim Sciutto with us. Trump sounds like Putin.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, he is repeating Putin, right?

And it's not just an overlap of talking points here from Trump and Putin. It is a mirror image of those talking points. He blames Ukraine for the war. Remind folks, Russia invaded, by the way, two times in 2014 and again in 2022, and it has invaded other countries in Europe, going back to Georgia in 2008.

One, he says, Ukraine's to blame. Two, he gloms on to this Russian justification that it was Ukraine desiring NATO membership that caused the war, which, by the way, this began long before that was even on the table, and, three, now calling Zelenskyy a dictator, which, again, was another one of the justifications Putin going in.

Remember, he said that Zelenskyy was a Nazi and created this whole Nazi threat there, which doesn't exist, and is also just an asinine point to make, given that Putin is an actual dictator, right, who killed his opponent. I mean, he goes so far as to kill his opponent, poisoning Alexei Navalny, having his spy services do that.

So, we now have the U.S. president endorsing Kremlin positions on this war. And, listen, Republicans in Congress that I speak to, and I'm sure you do as well, know that's false, as do at least two of his senior advisers, because they have said so publicly, Mike Waltz and Marco Rubio, at least previously. Do they go along with this? We will see.

KEILAR: I think one of the most concerning things is, and it's kind of an abstraction for so many Americans, the post-World War II world order that we have enjoyed.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KEILAR: People don't think about it because they have enjoyed it, right?

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KEILAR: It's sort of something they take for granted. Are we seeing perhaps a realignment? SCIUTTO: One hundred percent. This is not just Trump apparently

abandoning Ukraine, because he's been quite public, as have his senior advisers at the Munich Security Conference, for instance, that the U.S. no longer will ensure Europe's security, saying, in effect, it's your job, regardless of NATO.

That is quite a move. And then, more broadly, to your point here, what has largely held since World War II is this rules-based international order. Sounds kind of boring, but, to your point, it has largely kept the peace among the superpowers. Putin has violated that by invading a country to change the borders by force.

And Trump is, in effect, endorsing that and moving the U.S. back from what was a bipartisan position for decades, that the U.S. supports that because it's in our interest to do so. It's not just a favor to Europe or to Asia or to other countries around the world. It's in our interests to have borders respected.

And it's worked, largely. Trump seems to be saying, we're moving on.

KEILAR: Jim Sciutto, thank you so much. Really appreciate it -- Boris.

SCIUTTO: Thanks.

SANCHEZ: Let's expand the conversation now with Michael Bociurkiw from Ukraine. He's a former spokesperson for the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe.

Michael, thanks so much for being with us.

What do you make of President Trump calling Zelenskyy a dictator?

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Unbelievable. I never thought we would reach that day.

Two months ago, Boris, or so, two months or so ago, I said there's no floor to Mr. Trump's subservience to Mr. Putin. And now we see that's playing out. These remarks are unhinged. They're divisive and they're dangerous. And it plays exactly into Mr. Putin's narrative. Now, the hope here is that, with Mr. Trump's short attention span, maybe he will move on to another ally or enemy.

[13:25:05]

But I have to make one quick point here, is that, as we speak right now, here in Odesa, the view is, Russia right now has no solid red lines enforced by the United States. We got hammered last night with drones, and we will see what happens tonight, but it is a very, very dire situation here because of all that.

SANCHEZ: I wonder if you think this tension between Zelenskyy and Trump was bound to happen, given their history. Obviously Trump's social media post came after Zelenskyy said that the president lives in the disinformation space.

Could this tension have been avoided?

BOCIURKIW: I don't think so. I think Mr. Zelenskyy was working very, very hard to ingratiate himself, if I can use that term, to Mr. Trump.

Remember, in Trump 1.0, it was Mr. Trump who tried to extort dirt out of Mr. Zelenskyy on Hunter Biden in exchange for weapons, those Javelin missiles. And now Mr. Zelenskyy has proactively gone to Mr. Trump and said, well, he probably shouldn't have said it, but he said, let's make a deal. And Mr. Trump says, OK, you're going to pay us back to the tune of half-a-trillion dollars for what we have given you.

So I think they did everything they could here, but extremely, extremely divisive. This could also play into the hands of opponents of Mr. Zelenskyy here on the ground.

SANCHEZ: I'm curious what this tells you about how the White House sees negotiations to end the war.

BOCIURKIW: I don't think they -- I think it's amateur hour, with all due respect.

And the cheerleading show we saw yesterday in Riyadh, because I don't know how many times Mr. Rubio and company said Mr. Trump is the only person on Earth who can solve this war. But I think what's happening here is, you have all of these different so-called diplomatic lines working, General Kellogg here in Ukraine today, but, at the end of the day, it's going to be Mr. Trump that -- who decides what's going to happen.

And God forbid is he acts on what he said, is that, if Mr. Zelenskyy doesn't have elections, which is impossible to do during the war, the country could be gone. Well, if Russia comes further into Ukraine, they won't stop. They will go into other neighboring countries, for sure.

SANCHEZ: There are clear reasons why holding elections in the middle of this war specifically would be problematic and would amplify Russia's lethal abilities.

I wonder what you think about why Trump and Putin are so aligned with their view, not just of Ukraine, but seemingly of Europe as well.

BOCIURKIW: It's a really good question, and we have thought a lot about that.

But I guess the beauty of being Donald Trump is, you come into a position without any ideological baggage. So you don't care about the rules-based international order or other principles. But I have to make a quick point here, in case people don't understand, is as an OSCE election observer, I can understand why you don't have elections right now, because they become targets, electoral posts for Russians.

And the other thing, with millions of Ukrainians overseas, there's no way that they can -- the U.S. embassies can handle that flow of voters for a credible election.

SANCHEZ: Michael Bociurkiw, we will leave the conversation there. Thank you so much for sharing your point of view.

BOCIURKIW: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Still to come on CNN: Debris from that Delta plane crash at Toronto Pearson International Airport is set to be removed today. It comes as we get a new glimpse from inside the plane showing the dramatic evacuation.

Don't go anywhere.

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