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Polls on Musk and DOGE; Jonathan Reiner is Interviewed about Vaccines; Pentagon Pauses Plan for Firings; Chris Kluwe is Interviewed About His Protest Over a Library Plaque. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired February 21, 2025 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:32:24]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, overnight we seem to start hearing some of the reaction that's bubbling up around the country to some of the cuts being made by the White House. This was a town hall for Congressman Rich McCormick, a Republican in a district he won by 30 points.

Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RICH MCCORMICK (R-GA): When you talk about presidential power, I remember having the same discussion with Republicans when Biden was elected.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: It's just a sample. There were all kinds of boos at this town hall over some of the cuts being made by the Trump administration, and some of their priorities.

With us now is CNN's senior data reporter, Harry Enten.

Harry, great to see you.

It's always interesting when some of the reaction out there matches what we're seeing on here.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Yes. This is an example where the polls seem to match what's going on in the public. And all I can say, Mr. Berman, is the people are mad. They are angry. They are rising up.

Take a look here. Top worst things that Trump has done. This is among the folks who oppose Trump actions in office so far. You might have thought going into the election or afterwards it'd be immigration policy, but that comes in at just 10 percent. Check out on this side of the screen, though, I'm coming over to Mr. Berman's side. Musk, DOGE, or the funding freezes, right, these funding cuts. Look at that. That takes the cake, 24 percent. That is the top answer amongst those who oppose Donald Trump's actions in office, saying it is the worst thing that he has done so far. It's Musk, it's DOGE, it's those funding cuts that people are mad. And if last night is an example, that town hall, they ain't going to take it anymore.

BERMAN: OK, this is among those who oppose Trump's actions in office. Is there a difference sort of across party lines?

ENTEN: Yes. OK. So, let's zoom in on Elon Musk, right? We're going to zoom in on Elon Musk, DOGE, and the access, of course, they have to the data. This is from our poll. The most significant Trump action this term so far, look at this, Democrats are more angry about this than Republicans are happy about it. Look at this, Democrats 18 percent say that the Musk/DOGE access to data is the most significant action so far for Trump this term.

Bring it over to this side of the screen. Look at this. Just 9 percent of Republicans say that Musk, DOGE, and the access to data is the most significant Trump action so far.

So, Elon Musk is becoming this rallying point for anger, this rallying point for anger on the left, and he's not really doing much for the right who are going, yes, we like what's going on, but it's not close to the most significant thing he's doing so far. For them, they're much more likely to say something like immigration.

[09:35:01]

BERMAN: You know, people who run elections always look for what they call an animating issue, an issue that gets voters excited or focused. For Democrats, maybe this is it. It's early days. We'll have to keep watching it.

What has this done for Elon Musk?

ENTEN: Yes, what has this done for Elon Musk? Is Elon Musk bringing his numbers up, or are they falling down?

Take a look here. This gives you an idea of how angry the folks are at Elon Musk. Look at this, Elon Musk's net favorable rating, we've been tracking this, this is Quinnipiac University, back in December of 2024, he was underwater, but just underwater by five points. Look at where he is now in February 2025. The American people are turning against Elon Musk. His net favorable rating, way down there, past now minus ten points, minus 12 points.

The bottom line is this, the voters are angry with Elon Musk, they're angry with the cuts to the federal government. You saw it in a town hall last night, and they're taking it out against Elon Musk in the polls as well, where his numbers are falling, Mr. Berman.

BERMAN: We'll have to see how this affects Elon Musk when he's up for re-election (INAUDIBLE).

ENTEN: That might be one of the reasons they're angry with him.

BERMAN: All right, Harry Enten, great to see you. Thank you very much.

ENTEN: Thank you.

BERMAN: Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Also new overnight, a key meeting with CDC - of CDC advisors who work on vaccine policy has been postponed. The Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, ACIP, had been scheduled to meet next week to discuss and vote on vaccine recommendations for flu or other diseases. Now that meeting is postponed indefinitely by the new leadership team at HHS under the direction of the new Health and Human Services secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

This all comes as an outbreak of a disease previously eradicated by vaccines, measles, is growing. The numbers are ticking up in New Mexico, with now nine confirmed case - illnesses. And in west Texas, a measles outbreak there has surged to at least 58 cases.

Joining us right now is CNN medical analyst Dr. Jonathan Reiner. He's a professor of medicine and surgery at George Washington University.

Doctor, it's good to see you again.

Let's start with this move by the new HHS. I want to read for everyone out there how I saw you react on social media, because I have heard the very same sentiment from many people, which is, you write, on that news about the - postponing the meeting, "what can happen when someone who said no vaccine is safe and effective becomes secretary of HHS? This is what can happen."

Well, people shouldn't be surprised by this.

DR. JONATHAN REINER, PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE AND SURGERY, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Please explain why this is a big deal.

REINER: So, you know, we live in a constant threat from pathogens. And one of the glorious gifts of medicine over the last century is the invention of vaccines. So, we'll talk about measles, you know, for a moment.

So, you know, before I was born, basically every child would develop measles before they were 15 years of age. We just expected that every child would get it. There'd be 4 or 5 million cases a year. About 50,000 kids would be hospitalized. About a thousand would get, you know, neurologic, horrible complications from it. Five hundred deaths a year. And then in 1963, the measles vaccine was rolled out. And in 2020, measles was eradicated. It was declared eradicated in the United States. The only case, the occasional case, someone who literally came into the United States actively infected.

But we've seen an erosion in vaccination in the United States. Between 2020 and 2024, vaccination for measles has dropped from more than 95 percent in this country to about 92 percent in this country. And in some parts, like now, west Texas, you see that almost 20 percent of kids in that county in west Texas have not been vaccinated for measles. And this is - and this is what happens. Now, it's not comforting to me that the current secretary of HHS has stated that he's not going to take vaccines away from people. We need leadership in this country. We need public health leadership in this country that advocate for vaccines. And what we should be hearing now from HHS, and CDC, and all of our public health leaders, is an urgent cry for people all over the country, not just in west Texas, if they haven't vaccinated their kids, to go ahead and do that now. But yet we hear silence.

And then, as you said out in the open, we learned yesterday that the ACIP committee, the committee of like 50 volunteer vaccine specialists and ID docs and pediatricians who meet three or four times a year to talk about vaccine policy and also set vaccine schedules for new vaccines, that the current meeting schedule for the next couple of weeks is indefinitely postponed.

So, what message are we hearing now from public health leadership in this - in the United States?

[09:40:04]

And what are we to expect if bird flu jumps into the population? Very, very disturbing to me. And as you said, I am not alone.

BOLDUAN: There are two key facts in terms of the ACIP meetings that I think can get lost. And people are like, it's an advisory committee. No one's taking away vaccines. Here's the key facts. The FDA approves vaccines, but clinicians wait for recommendations from this panel to understand the best ways to use vaccines. And insurance is - I've - as I've been learning, generally doesn't cover vaccines until a recommendation from this vaccine panel. That's why it is so important. That is why Senator Bill Cassidy said that he had gotten a commitment from RFK Jr to specific commitment to make sure these committees are not disbanded. I guess maybe there's a difference between disbanded and indefinitely postponed.

But, Doctor, you also have RFK, in his opening remarks to his staff, said that his priority is chronic disease. And what he said is he's going to look at new ways of trying to take it on, including, quote/unquote, "formerly taboo or insufficiently scrutinized contributing factors."

First on the list is, he plans to investigate was childhood vaccine schedules. Nothing is going to be off limits Kennedy said. No one should be surprised.

Your reaction?

REINER: Right. And, you know, and this - and we saw this during the confirmation hearings. This is really the cynical aspect of how Mr. Kennedy discusses these issues in public. He basically sets up this false straw man, suggesting that, you know, we really need safety data on these vaccines. You know, what do we really know about the safety of MMR? Well, the truth of the matter is, all of these vaccines have been studied for both safety and efficacy. If it's a brand new vaccine that we've never had before, but then its studied against placebo. For new vaccines replacing old vaccines, treating the same viruses, the vaccines are tested for safety and efficacy against the old vaccines.

So, every vaccine on the market in the United States has been tested for safety and efficacy. So, his arrival in Washington, he's not, you know, riding on some white horse now finally to tell us whether the vaccines we've been giving our children for 60 years are safe and effective. We've had this data. He's just been someone who has refused to read it and understand it and believe it.

BOLDUAN: Now we'll see what happens. Let's see if this meeting ever gets put back on the books for one thing.

It's good to see you, Jonathan. Thank you, Doctor.

John.

BERMAN: All right, a former NFL player arrested for protesting the implementation of a plaque that spelled out MAGA at a public library.

And a programing note. Join Roy Wood Jr., Amber Ruffin and Michael Ian Black as they serve up their take on the news of the week tomorrow night at 9:00 and streaming the next day on Max. The name of the show is, "Have I Got News for You."

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[09:46:39]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BERMAN: And we do have breaking news just into CNN.

We had been reporting on plans from the White House to cut part of the civilian workforce at the Pentagon, but there appears to be a development or a reversal there.

Let's get right to CNN's Natasha Bertrand for the latest on this.

So, a pause, Natasha?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: John, we're told that the Pentagon is currently pausing a plan temporarily to fire mass - conduct mass firings of probationary civilian employees across the Defense Department until Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth and the Pentagon's Office of General Counsel can actually carry out a more thorough review of the impact that such mass firings could have on U.S. military readiness.

And this pause, we should note, it comes after CNN reported on Wednesday that the mass terminations, which could have affected over 50,000 civilian employees inside the Pentagon, could actually run afoul of the law. That little known law, Title Ten, Section 129 A of the U.S. code. It essentially says that the secretary of defense may not reduce the civilian workforce program full-time equivalent levels unless the secretary conducts an appropriate analysis of how those firings could impact U.S. military readiness. We were told on Wednesday that defense officials were raising this

with the superiors - with their superiors, the possibility that these mass terminations could actually run afoul of those rules. And now the Pentagon's Office of General Counsel is inspecting this and making sure that DOD is fully in compliance with the law here before it moves forward with carrying out these mass terminations.

And, of course, we are also told that Secretary of Defense Hegseth is going to be carrying out a review here in compliance with that law of how this could impact readiness, because a lot of these employees, these civilian employees across the Pentagon, while they are probationary, which means that they have been on the job for about a year or less, they do, in many cases, serve critical national security roles. They are in positions like cyber security, intelligence, foreign military sales, all things that are really critical to the Pentagon's kind of day to day functioning in U.S. national security.

And so, a lot of officials had been saying, look, it's important that we take kind of a beat here and make sure that we are not getting rid of people who are going to be extremely necessary to the military operations that need to be carried out on a day to day basis. And now it seems as though that pause, even though it's likely temporary, is now in effect, John.

BERMAN: Just a temporary pause for now. And Secretary Hegseth must be getting whiplash. First he said they were going to increase spending, then cut it 8 percent annually, now pausing it. But this is just a pause. Will cuts still come?

BERTRAND: For now we are told that it is just a pause while they can review the legality of these mass firings because this is not a typical reduction in force, such that the Defense Department and other Pentagon - and other federal agencies have done in the past. This is a blanket executive order really asking them to fire large swathes of civilian employees. So, they need to really figure out the legality of this and, importantly, how it could impact U.S. military readiness, John.

BERMAN: Natasha Bertrand, in Washington, thanks so much for this breaking news. We will hear back from you again shortly, I am sure.

Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, a California city council meeting has sparked a national conversation after a former NFL player was arrested during an attempted protest over the implementation of a plaque at the Huntington Beach Central Library.

[09:50:07]

A plaque that spelled out MAGA.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS KLUWE, FORMER PUNTER, MINNESOTA VIKINGS: MAGA stands for resegregation and racism. MAGA stands for censorship and book bans. MAGA is profoundly corrupt, unmistakably anti-democracy.

I will now engage in the time-honored American tradition of peaceful civil disobedience. (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get the heck (ph)! Get out!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: With me now is the man you see in the video, former punter for the Minnesota Vikings, Chris Kluwe.

Thank you so much for being here this morning, Chris.

CHRIS KLUWE, FORMER PUNTER, MINNESOTA VIKINGS: Yes.

SIDNER: Look, the city council voting to put a plaque that they said was to honor the library's 50 year history that says magical, alluring, galvanizing, adventurous, which, of course, each capital letter of each word spelled out MAGA, seems to some like a small thing in the scheme of things. Why did you find it so important to - to protest this so fervently?

KLUWE: Because what's happening in Huntington Beach with our city council is a microcosm of what's happening with the country as a whole. This city council, they do not care about their community. They've consistently shown they don't care about community feedback. They're only in it to get more power for themselves and to push themselves higher into Trump's orbit. They welcome this national attention because for them it's a way to increase their own personal power.

And as a resident of this city, and as someone who loves books and loves reading, it is just beyond the pale what they're trying to do to this library because the plaque is only the latest in a series of events. They've tried to ban books at the library. They've tried to privatize the library. And it's become very, very clear, they do not care what the community wants. They only care about themselves.

SIDNER: I am very familiar with Huntington Beach. It is known for being a politically deep red spot in a mostly blue southern California. And they have had some policies that have really raised some eyebrows, including the banning of books.

You talked about the direct parallels that you see from the darkest times, or at least one of the darkest times in world history, and you believe that we're on that path again. What is that path, do you believe?

KLUWE: I believe we're on the path that Nazi Germany went down under Hitler. And I say that as a political science and history major, as someone who has studied history. And the parallels are very, very clear. This administration is trying to erase trans people. This administration is trying to put obedience over duty to the country. This administration is trying to thrust our country into turmoil in order to reap power for themselves. And I think regardless of political affiliation, all of us as

Americans should be able to agree, no kings, no tyrants, not now, not ever. I cannot express how disgusting it was to see an official White House account put out a picture of an American president with a crown on his head. That goes against everything this country was founded upon.

SIDNER: Yes, that's also after Donald Trump posted "long live the king" after stopping a policy here in New York.

Look, there is this issue. The American public did vote for Donald Trump. After all the things he said about being their retribution, about taking revenge, about clearing out the federal government's so- called deep state, as he puts it, and the mass deportations, what do you say to Americans who say, yes, we voted for him, we did it in large numbers, he won the popular vote for the first time as well, knowing all these things.

KLUWE: I say to them that Hitler was elected, too, and there were a lot of very good Germans who believed that Hitler was going to have their best interests in mind. And I think there are a lot of good Americans that think that Trump has their best interests in mind. But I am very confident that what this administration has shown has already shown that Trump does not have their best interests in mind. And I would like for those Americans to not live after all the bodies have dropped and be filled with regret because they failed to do the right thing when it was time to do the right thing.

SIDNER: Are you planning to continue doing these kinds of protests there at Huntington Beach, and perhaps beyond?

KLUWE: I plan to keep on showing up to the city council meetings unless they ban me. I don't know if that will be the case or not because our next city council meeting is about a week and a half from now. So, we'll see what happens there.

I definitely plan on - on speaking out on the issue because, as an American citizen, I care about my country. I want my country to be a place where everyone can have the same advantages that I had. And I have to use my privilege to make that the case.

SIDNER: Chris Kluwe, thank you so much for coming on this morning. Really appreciate you waking up bright and early, because I know it's early there in California. Appreciate it.

BOLDUAN: All right.

SIDNER: It's Friday, guys.

BOLDUAN: What?

SIDNER: It's Friday.

BERMAN: Really. We should run the breaking news banner.

SIDNER: And you know what? I'm over it. [09:55:00]

I'm over it. I'm out.

BERMAN: Sara's out. Sara's out.

BOLDUAN: Sara's done, friends.

SIDNER: I hope you have a good weekend.

BOLDUAN: We don't know how you feel about it, but we feel similarly, I believe.

SIDNER: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you all so much for joining us today and this week and forever. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

"CNN NEWSROOM" is up next.

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[10:00:01]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, good morning. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Pamela Brown in Washington.