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Officials: Pentagon Pauses Plan For Mass Firings After CNN Reports The DOD's Action Could Violate The Law; Judge Could Rule Today On USAID Freeze By Trump Admin; Trump: Zelenskyy Has "No Cards" & Not "Important To Be At Meetings'. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired February 21, 2025 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Pentagon pause, the Defense Department holding off on a plan to fire potentially tens of thousands of civilian employees. The legal roadblock that could save these people's jobs.

Plus, whiplash diplomacy after falsely claiming Ukraine started the war. President Trump today admits Russia attacked, but still blames Ukrainian President Zelenskyy for not stopping it. We're live in Kyiv with the latest talks just wrapped.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN HOST: And a doctor who went viral after airing her frustrations about the health insurance industry is now speaking to CNN. We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN News Central.

KEILAR: Hello, I'm Brianna Keilar here in Washington with Omar Jimenez in for Boris today.

JIMENEZ: Great to see you.

KEILAR: Great to have you. And we are following developments on a major reversal at the Pentagon today. The Defense Department is now pausing its plan to carry out mass firings of civilian employees.

Officials telling CNN, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and Pentagon attorneys are now reviewing how those firings may break the law and impact U.S. military readiness.

JIMENEZ: And this temporary pause comes as President Trump and Elon Musk have been slashing the federal workforce and scrambling in recent days to reinstate terminated workers tasked with critical jobs, such as managing America's nuclear weapons. CNN's Natasha Bertrand reports.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: We're learning that the Pentagon has hit pause on a plan to carry out mass firings of civilian probationary employees across the Pentagon. Terminations that could have impacted over 50,000 employees across the Department of Defense because the Pentagon now is doing a legal review to make sure that the Office of the Secretary of Defense is in compliance with the law when he orders these mass firings to be carried out. That is because the law says that the secretary of defense cannot reduce the number of civilian employees across the Pentagon without first carrying out a thorough review of how these firings might actually impact U.S. military readiness.

A lot of these civilian employees are in very important positions across the Department of Defense, including intelligence, cybersecurity, foreign military sales, other mission critical functions, including operations that the Pentagon really cannot spare at this point. And for that reason, defense officials had been scrambling all week to come up with lists of employees who should be exempt from these mass firings because they carry out such important roles inside the Pentagon.

And so now we're told that the Pentagon is hitting pause on this plan for now, while the Secretary of Defense and the Office of General Counsel inside the Department of Defense can carry out a review to make sure that the department is in compliance with the law and also that these mass firings and the people who do ultimately get dismissed does not impact U.S. military readiness, does not essentially harm the U.S. military's ability to carry out some of its mission critical operations and functions.

Now, it remains unclear just how long this pause is going to be in effect, but we are told that several employees inside the Pentagon, they are breathing a sigh of relief today because the original plan was to start firing these probationary employees as soon as today. So it remains to be seen just how long this pause is going to be in effect. But as we have seen in other agencies across the federal government, many of them have had to claw back employees that they have fired because they acted too hastily and they fired people who were in very important roles for U.S. national security.

And so the Pentagon right now, we're told, does not want to be in that position and is taking a beat until it can figure out all of the implications and adjust as necessary.

KEILAR: All right. Natasha Bertrand, thank you very much for that.

And let's talk about this more with Leon Panetta. He served as defense secretary under President Obama, and he served in many, many other roles across administrations. I do want to see what you think, Secretary, about and there is a pause. We -- we again have to emphasize that. But these planned terminations that were expected to impact 50,000 plus civilian employees, we should know many of these are -- are veterans at the Pentagon. They go from service and then often switch over into civilian service at the Pentagon. What are your concerns about the possibility of losing their expertise?

LEON PANETTA, DEFENSE SECRETARY UNDER PRES. OBAMA: I think -- I think we're at a very dangerous time where I'm afraid that these mixed signals and -- and chaos and disruption coming out of the administration are weakening our country. And the reality is that there is a process to look at whether or not there are employees that are critical to our readiness. That's a process they should have engaged in before they made any recommendations. [13:05:23]

But instead, they went ahead, talked about 50,000 employees getting kicked out, realized that they had violated the law and not taken the right steps. When you have this kind of chaos and disruption, very frankly, you're sending a very bad signal to the world about our ability to be ready to defend ourselves and to do what's necessary for our national security. So this is not just fun games in the administration. These carry serious implications about our national security.

KEILAR: Am I hearing, are you -- are you worried that America, because of these cuts, is more vulnerable to an attack?

PANETTA: Well, what I'm worried about are the mixed signals that are coming out of this administration. The President making comments that indicated his support for Putin and his position, undermining our allies like Ukraine, our European allies, now taking steps to go after our defense budget, for God's sakes. What that does is it sends a terrible signal not just to our allies, but to our adversaries as well. And so what I'm worried about is whether or not as a result of what's happening here, we are creating a more dangerous world and a weaker America.

KEILAR: Secretary Hegseth may be looking at firing some -- he may fire some senior generals and admirals here soon. And when you look at the list that -- that he appears to be focusing in on, it is heavy on women. It is heavy on those who were close to Secretary Austin and maybe some of those who were tied to the end days in Afghanistan. What do you think as you look at the names that you're seeing?

PANETTA: What bothers me is that, you know, you can't just have Elon Musk going around with a chainsaw and recommending different cuts. There needs to be thought. There needs to be a strategy. When I was director of OMB in the Clinton administration, we reduced the deficit by $500 billion. But we did it by working it through the budget, carefully analyzing programs, recommending reductions where they could be made, recommending some increases. And we did it with a strategy that everybody understood. What I sense right now is there is no discipline in trying to develop the strategy of what this administration is trying to accomplish.

KEILAR: Yes, certainly with your perspective from OMB, I can only imagine how you look at it. Secretary Leon Panetta, thank you so much for being with us.

And we're also standing by for a key court ruling. A judge could be ruling today on whether President Trump's executive order dismantling that U.S. agency charged with delivering humanitarian assistance around the globe is legal.

JIMENEZ: And we're still standing by for that decision. As we wait, though, some GOP lawmakers are hearing firsthand, really, the backlash to the mass firings that we've seen in various parts of the government. At a town hall in Georgia last night, a Republican congressman faced plenty of boos and pushback to Trump's moves in his first month in office. Take a listen.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Elon was going to be the main topic tonight, and he's going to continue to be the main topic tonight because we are all freaking pissed off about this. You're going to hear it and feel it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As you said on "Fox News," I believe that there's hundreds of billions of dollars to be saved with Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security that needs to be cut. And why not take that money from taxing the billionaires and corporations instead?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why is a supposedly conservative party taking such a radical and extremist and sloppy approach to this?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tyranny is rising in the White House and a man has declared himself our king. So I would like to know, rather, the people would like to know what you, congressman, and your fellow congressmen are going to do to rein in the megalomaniac in the White House.

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REP. RICH MCCORMICK (R-GA): When you talk about tyranny, when you talk about presidential power, I remember having the same discussion with Republicans when Biden was elected.

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JIMENEZ: You hear the reaction there. CNN's Jeff Zeleny joins us now. So, Jeff, I mean, obviously you look at that, you see there clearly is some pushback, at least among his constituents there, to some of these firings and the way that they've gone about. Has the White House rethought any of these cuts? I wonder how they're reacting to what we -- we've been seeing.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Omar, in a short answer, no, they've not been rethinking these cuts. But that meeting there just in northwest of Atlanta last night was certainly a window into what many members of Congress, both senators and House members, the phone calls they've been receiving over the last month. We've been reporting and hearing, of course, just like many, many. Sorry about that, Omar.

Let me start that again. What you were hearing really is a lot of what members of Congress have been hearing in the phone calls through their offices really for the last month or so. They've been hearing a lot of pushback from constituents, a lot of questions about are these firings, are these freezing of government programs the right way to go about this? But no, the White House has not acknowledged really any errors in this except for the Pentagon.

I mean, that is an unusual really the only example I can think of, of where there's been a -- a -- a pause put in place. But the President just finished speaking to governors for a little over an hour or so. And in the course of that conversation, there was some pushback, some exchanges from governors on a variety of things. But we have not seen any sign of a regret or slowing down. In fact, quite the opposite, Elon Musk was also at this meeting, as he usually is with the President. And they are going a full speed ahead.

But when you talk to members of Congress on both sides, they are hearing from constituents here. So that's, you know, the beginning of these town meetings. We certainly recall them from the -- the era of the -- the Tea Party, where there was sort of protests rising up across the country. We don't know if this is the beginning of that, but it certainly had that flavor.

JIMENEZ: And some of these cuts, while they happen in Washington, you know, have impact on employees across the country. Jeff Zeleny, really appreciate the reporting.

Now, as we mentioned, we're still awaiting a key ruling in regards to U.S. aid. But what we're learning about how President Trump's freeze is directly affecting people's lives. At one orphanage in Kenya, for example, it's created a life-and-death situation. Right now, this children's home in Nairobi cares for around 100 HIV-positive children. USAID pays for the life-saving medicines that keep them alive at an average cost of about $1,000 a year per child. Without USAID and -- and that medicine, these children could die.

I want to bring in USA -- I want to talk more about these USAID cuts. I want to bring in Susan Reichle. She's a former senior foreign service officer at the agency. Thank you for being here. I mean, we've been talking about it. We're awaiting a final decision from a federal judge on whether he'll allow the Trump administration to -- to dismantle the agency or essentially indefinitely block that from happening. You were at USAID for decades. What are you feeling right now?

SUSAN REICHLE, FORMER USAID SENIOR FOREIGN SERVICE OFFICER: Well, right now, we are living day by day, all of us who have worked in development with USAID as a partner. And I'm so glad you used that example from Kenya. And there are so many examples from across the globe where USAID has been on the front lines, literally, you know, saving lives, 25 million lives have been saved as a result of the president's emergency program, PEPFAR, as we affectionately call it. And you just highlighted there in Kenya.

Those employees and partners across the globe have been told to stop working. They have been fired. This week, we've had more than 250 humanitarian assistance officers for USAID who were let go. These are the people who respond to disasters, go in when there's an earthquake or a tsunami, who are saving lives. And so right now, you know, we're waiting for this next court order.

We do feel as though the court does understand. We -- there was a case yesterday where clearly irreparable harm has been done to everybody who's been working on development. And we do development for our national interest, as President Kennedy and every president since has supported foreign aid, as well as the polls we've seen this week, a lot of support, not just for foreign aid, but for USAID. JIMENEZ: And let's talk about those national interests because, you know, a lot of what USAID does is over its soft power influence, for example. You always talk about the three Ds, diplomacy, development, defense. But in a recent report from the now-fired USAID inspector general, he wrote that staff reported the counterterrorism vetting unit supporting humanitarian assistance were told not to report to work and could not then conduct partner vetting. So can you just explain a little bit of -- of -- about how important is that partner vetting -- vetting and does that endanger our federal employees?

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REICHLE: Absolutely. And that's so critical, what we do. And we are so appreciative that the inspector general highlighted that last week. And then, as you know, he was fired by the Trump administration as soon as issuing that information, that agency notice. Partner vetting is really making sure that all U.S. taxpayer dollars are not going into a situation that could actually prevent, create harm to the United States. So we vet all of our partners. We make sure that it is not going to be leaked.

And so when we hear these allegations of corruption and things that have been said about USAID being worms, it really just startles us. Because, frankly, there is so much oversight of USAID, as there should be of all taxpayer dollars. We want to make sure that all U.S. taxpayer dollars are being used well. And that's why we have inspector generals. And not only was the inspector general for USAID fired, but as you know, across the U.S. government.

And you have to wonder why, because they are the ones who make sure there is accountability. And in this case, our inspector general was concerned that there was over $8 billion of humanitarian assistance --

JIMENEZ: Yes.

REICHLE: -- that could not be used effectively if there weren't people, like I just described, who were -- who were managing it.

JIMENEZ: And look, big picture, we're -- we're a month into the Trump administration, weeks into seeing some of these cuts and freezes. And we don't know what the future of the agency will be officially as we wait on this -- on this order. But how does this past month, do you believe, how does it impact the global standing of the United States in regards to humanitarian aid?

REICHLE: Oh, I've heard so many stories across the globe from my former colleagues and partners. And they said, you know, so much trust and confidence in the U.S. is broken. And their biggest concern, besides obviously the impact it's having on daily lives, is that they will turn to others, such as China and Russia and those who, you know, where I used to serve in Colombia. China is already trying to fill the space from all the assistance that we're not providing. And President Petro, the president of Colombia, is already planning a trip to Russia. It's just putting us into a situation that I think is dangerous for America.

JIMENEZ: Susan Reichle, really appreciate the time and perspective. Thanks for being here.

REICHLE: Thank you.

JIMENEZ: All right, ahead of this hour on CNN News Central, Trump attacks President Zelenskyy again. This time saying the Ukrainian leader isn't needed to negotiate. We're going to have a live report from Ukraine, next.

KEILAR: Plus, supporters of Luigi Mangione are packed inside of a U.S. courthouse where the suspected killer is set to appear. We are following the latest there.

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And then later, new reporting that President Trump is planning to take over the U.S. Postal Service, a move that could end service to people in rural areas.

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KEILAR: Days after claiming Ukraine started the war, when it didn't, President Trump backtracked. Listen to what he said in a radio interview today.

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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Russia attacked, but there was no reason for them to attack. You could have talked him out. You -- there was no reason that he should have attacked. Russia could have been talked out of that so easily.

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KEILAR: Now Trump later said that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy does not need to be at the meetings with Russia about seeking a peace between the two countries.

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TRUMP: I've been watching for years, and I've been watching him negotiate with no cards. He has no cards. And you get sick of it. You just get sick of it. And I've had it. He's been at the meetings for three years, and nothing got done. So I don't think he's very important to be at meetings, to be honest with you.

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JIMENEZ: Now as President Trump slams Ukraine's president, Trump's special envoy to Russia and Ukraine, Keith Kellogg, he took a different tone. Kellogg posted about it, quote, extensive and positive discussions with Zelenskyy. The embattled and courageous leader of a nation at war and his talented national security team. CNN's Nick Paton -- Paton Walsh is in Kyiv for us, covering the U.S.-Ukraine talk. So, Nick, what impact are -- are President Trump's comments expected to have there? NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Yes, I mean, I think it's important we correct the record of a couple of things the President said in that interview. He said that nobody tried 00 tried to talk Putin out of the invasion. Well, the United States made public their intelligence that Russia was about to invade. And indeed, multiple occasions, the CIA director Bill Burns, it seems, to Moscow to lay out the fact they knew this was going to happen until the Russians not do it.

So that's one issue. The other thing he said is that he's had three years to negotiate, or in negotiations. There have not been meetings for three years. Ukraine has not been talking to Russia because they don't trust it at the negotiating table. And because many of Ukraine's allies have also felt that diplomacy hasn't been the way forward until Russia seems ready for it. So just part of the issue here, I think, is a lot of the things we're hearing Trump say are revisionist to some degree.

Today, he said that Russia did indeed attack. And that's correct. But he sort of immediately caveated that with the idea that that was essentially because Biden and Zelenskyy hadn't properly spoken to Putin.

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All of this tirade of, I hate to say it, but falsehood over the past three days has shaken many Ukrainians here. It's left Zelenskyy in a complex position where he was obliged to say, I respect Trump, I respect the American people, but they live in a disinformation space. Trump lives in a disinformation space. And that sparked another Trump tirade.

Today, we have another bid by Zelenskyy, I think, to try and put the relationship back on track, along with Trump's special envoy to the Ukraine and Russia conflict, General Keith Kellogg, and those tweets that you referred to. But we have very little detail about the content of these meetings. And Kellogg, apart from a press availability at the railway station when he arrived, has been notably absent from public view here, apart from tweets.

The last one you're referring to on his personal x.com account. What we do know is there is great focus on this rare earth mineral deal. And it is one that initially was focused on repaying the United States for previous aid. Ukrainian officials saying that negotiations around this have been going on today, that they have a sense of real urgency around them, that they are now going through several drafts of this particular document, and the Ukrainians are trying to get security elements into there. That's a little different from security guarantees that Zelenskyy has been trying to get.

But I think we're into a dark moment here in terms of the Ukraine-U.S. relationship, because it's been overshadowed in a real free fall over the past three days with this spat between their two presidents. And now it is essentially a very transactional deal that's being hammered out in which Ukraine gives up potentially half of its natural resources or rare earth minerals in exchange, hopefully, they hope, for security elements, guarantees, or maybe some future aid.

KEILAR: Can you talk a little bit more about that, Nick, that idea of security elements? Because without future security guarantees, it's hard to see how Ukraine and how Zelenskyy could just say, yes, we will give up these resources. They're already going potentially, you know, to listen to Trump, to have to give up this territory that Russia has taken here over the last several years. That would be a lot to give up, maybe too much, it seems.

WALSH: Yes, I mean, I think realists suggest that the idea of Ukraine getting back those territories now is far-fetched to some degree. They tried in the counteroffensive in 2023. That didn't work. So a peace deal is likely to freeze territory as it is. And I think most Ukrainians accept that's going to be very tough for Kyiv to reverse. Security guarantees, well, the U.S. has said explicitly, and I asked President Zelenskyy about this in -- in person. The U.S. said explicitly they won't put troops on the ground, and they seem to be prevaricating on military aid.

Zelenskyy said, well, just give us air defense, give us Patriot missiles that are adequate to keep the ballistic missiles back. So that's an ongoing discussion, and it seems to be one that shifts the idea of security guarantees more towards Ukraine's European allies. But in all honesty, without the United States assisting them, they probably don't have the sheer volume of force or economy or military production to be able to give Ukraine all that it needs. So this is constantly shifting and part of these negotiations.

And we'll see European leaders, I think, here at the anniversary on Monday and in Washington talking to President Trump. So much moving, but a lot of it, frankly, about the deterioration of Ukraine, what is their most important relationship, and that's with the United States.

JIMENEZ: Nick Paton Walsh, appreciate the reporting, as always.

[13:28:36]

Coming up, she documented an experience she had with an insurer, and then her video went viral. CNN speaks to the doctor about her experience. That's next.

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