Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Accused CEO Killer Luigi Mangione Due in New York Court; Pentagon Pauses Plan For Mass Layoffs of Civilian Workers; Angry Voters Confront GOP Lawmakers Amid Federal Job Cults. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired February 21, 2025 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:01:15]

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN HOST: He's accused of gunning down the UnitedHealthcare CEO on a Manhattan sidewalk. And minutes from now, Luigi Mangione will face murder and terror charges inside a New York courtroom. We're following the latest.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Plus, the Pentagon putting a plan to fire thousands of civilian employees on hold. Why the Defense Department is hitting the pause button.

And as the bird flu takes a serious toll on the nation's poultry farms in steps Turkey, we're talking about the country here. How it's helping out with the U.S. egg shortage? We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN News Central.

JIMENEZ: All right. Any at this point, we're awaiting Luigi Mangione, the alleged gunman in the high profile killing of the UnitedHealthcare CEO. He is set to appear in court. Now, the 26-year-old has pleaded not guilty to state murder and terror charges. But if convicted, he could face life in prison without the possibility of parole.

KEILAR: Spectators have gathered inside. You see them here. They're also outside the courthouse ahead of this hearing today. This is Mangione's first court appearance since he was arraigned nearly two months ago in the shooting death Brian Thompson outside a hotel in Manhattan. Police say the executive was ambushed as he walked to an Investor Conference. CNN's Brynn Gingras is with us now from New York. Bryn, what are we expecting in court today?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, so guys, this is just a status conference hearing. This is going to give the chance for prosecutors and Luigi Mangione's defense team to update the judge on where they are with this case. And it's possible we may get a trial date set by the judge at the end of this hearing. It's also possible we might hear some of that evidence that has been turned over from prosecutors to Mangione's defense team.

A lot of that, of course, we were learning as this case was unfolding back in December. But it's possible we might hear a little bit more detail. But what is happening right now, I can tell you, is there is a crowd, dozens of people who are outside as you guys show the viewers in the hallway of that courthouse waiting for Luigi Mangione to show up for that court appearance.

We know his defense attorney, his lead defense attorney, Karen Agnifilo, she has already arrived. When she arrived, she went over to that group of people inside that courtroom in the hall, or the hallway, rather, and they cheered her, really. We were understanding that the court martials that are there right now weren't exactly happy about that eruption of cheers. But we can only imagine what will happen when Mangione himself shows up with the police, of course, by his side.

We also have been seeing for several hours now, people outside, as you're seeing there, supporting Mangione, wearing T-shirts holding signs saying Free Mangione. We've seen so much support for Mangione ever since this all happened back in December. And, of course, we have also heard so much from law enforcement, from political leaders, the governors of both New York and also Pennsylvania, where he was arrested, saying, you know, he is no hero. He committed or he allegedly committed a crime here.

So it's certainly interesting to see the fascination for Mangione, you know, the fact that everyone is sort of -- not everyone. A lot of people are saying there's just a movement that has now started against the health care industry because of Mangione. And that seems to only be growing as we have this, you know, little update in the court process in just a few minutes, guys.

KEILAR: All right. We'll be watching to see what happens. Brynn Gingras, thank you. And while we do wait for this hearing to start, let's bring in CNN Legal Analyst and Criminal Defense Attorney Joey Jackson.

[14:05:05]

And Michael Alcazar, he's a Retired NYPD Detective. He's now an adjunct professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

So, Joey, you're looking at this spectacle, the Mangione supporters in the court area today outside Free Luigi signs. It was projected last night on a New York City building. What do you think about this spectacle and what are you expecting today?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah, Brianna, it's a very unique case in as much as you see a brazen alleged killing right before our eyes and you see this mass public support for him, right? So it really is unique from that perspective.

But I think today, you know, when a case begins, it starts with the grand jury. And, of course, a grand jury in this case delivered 11 counts as it relates to murder in the first degree, right? Under the act of terrorism, the second degree murder charge, an assortment of gun charges, etcetera. And remember, the grand jury is not deciding guilt or innocence. They just decide whether there's reason to believe a crime was committed and he committed it. And then it ends, of course, the case itself with either a verdict or a plea. But there's a lot in between.

So just very briefly, Brianna, in terms of today, the in between, what I'm expecting is to know what is the status as it relates to discovery. There's a lot of information that has to be exchanged. There's three different, really, proceedings that are happening, right? The one today exclusively deals with the state case. But don't forget, right? Right across the street in federal court. He's facing federal charges as well, for which he can get the death penalty. New York State, you can. And then there's this Pennsylvania case.

There's a lot of coordination with respect to discovery that needs to be turned over. Where are we in that process? When will the case be ready? When, if ever, will there be pretrial proceedings such as hearings? So I want to know, as everyone does, what's the status of that information, and will we learn anything new as it relates to any revelation of information that was turned over, or are there any glitches as it relates to the discovery process which the defense needs in order to move forward to represent their client?

JIMENEZ: And those are some of the questions we could get answers to in this status hearing.

Michael, I want to bring you in because Mangione released his first public statement from prison last week. He says he's grateful for the support he's received, and powerfully, the support has transcended political, racial, and even class divisions as mail has flooded in from across the country and around the globe. He goes on to say he reads every letter he receives. Why do you think he put that statement out? And what do you make of what it said, especially at this point in the legal proceedings?

MICHAEL ALCAZAR, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: I think he's just trying to get more support, right? He wants people to know that he's reading them. So he wants it to keep coming, I guess, in a way. I don't know if he's thinking the support will help him with his case. It's definitely an anomaly that he's getting so much support. I can't figure out why they would support a person suspected of homicide. So it's definitely unusual, an unusual occurrence.

JIMENEZ: And Joey, just on that point, I mean, is there an avenue here where you see the media strategy sort of becoming part of the legal strategy?

JACKSON: So, Omar. I do. I think it's a big deal, you know, in a case like this, which is just so rare, right? Where you have to Michael's point, a situation where you have a brazen killing, but yet he's got, you know, Free Luigi, qualified bachelor, you know, could he marry me tomorrow? So why is all that relevant? It's relevant because we have this thing called jury nullification. And what that means in English is that a jury, right? Knowing that a person is guilty, has the authority to excuse it.

Now, people may think, hey, you're crazy. That'll never happen here. But stranger things may have occurred. And so to the extent that we have a health care system, right? That a lot of people are railing against, that people don't know why they deny claims, why they're causing people so much frustration, et cetera.

Do the attorneys use that as a wedge issue, as they're using to raise now, right? What is it? A half a million dollars in order to have the jury say, you know, maybe we should overlook this. I doubt it happens, right? There's a lot of evidence pointing to him being the one who's done this. But a jury can excuse, it's called nullification. And I think. Omar, Brianna, it plays big in this particular case or could.

KEILAR: Michael, can you talk a little bit about the security footprint? Because this is someone who in the past, when he was being arrested, shouted out right to the cameras. He wanted to send a message. I don't know if he's going to try to do something like that today, but there's a lot of people there who aren't normally there. What does that do for the security footprint?

ALCAZAR: Well, I mean, New York City is used to a lot of fanfare when we're dealing with high profile cases. I'm sure his lawyers already coach him not to scream anymore. It's not a good look for him to scream to the audience, to the fans, to the people standing outside in the gates to rile them up. I don't think it helps them.

[14:10:01

To me, it makes him look more guilty. So a lot of police presence, a lot of uniform presence to make sure that the bystanders are safe, the media presence is safe and that Luigi gets to the courthouse safely.

KEILAR: And we also should note, Joey, to you, that when someone is this notorious, let's just say the word, right? That could create issues not just in New York but everywhere for a jury pool. So what are you expecting ultimately when it gets to that point?

JACKSON: You know, Brianna, here's the view, right? What happens is, great question, that jurors are not empanelled because they don't know anything about the case, right? You would suspect in terms of the jury that they're going to know about the case. The issue is not did you know about it? Did you hear about it? Do even you have opinions about it? People have opinions.

Can you put that aside? And based upon what you know, can you evaluate the case for the evidence you hear in the courtroom? And could you swear to your duty, no matter what you think about the health care system, what you think about Luigi, what you think about politics, what you think about whatever, that you can make a fair, honest assessment and render a just verdict.

So I think you'll see when it gets there, if it gets there, a lot of jurors being excused for cause, meaning they have entrenched reasons they can't get over. But I do think we can empanel. There'll be an empanelled fair jury and there'll be a determination if it goes to trial that are based on the merits of the case or lack thereof.

JIMENEZ: Again, we are still waiting for him to enter court. We've been following those live images. Joey Jackson, Michael Alcazar, thanks so much for being here.

JACKSON: Thanks so much. Thanks, Brianna.

JIMENEZ: All right. Just ahead, pressing pause. Not us. The Defense Department suddenly halts a plan to fire thousands of civilian employees as we learn new details about why the process isn't moving forward.

KEILAR: Plus, CNN's new reporting from within the IRS as fear spreads through the agency over its sweeping layoffs and what they could mean for your tax returns.

And a new report. Americans are in -- they're not feeling good about the economy. The big worries driving concerns about the prices we're paying and whether they'll get better. Well, that and much more coming up on CNN News Central.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:16:47]

JIMENEZ: Welcome back everyone. Now to a major development at the Pentagon. The Defense Department now pausing its plan to carry out mass firings of civilian employees.

KEILAR: Officials tell CNN Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and Pentagon attorneys are now reviewing how those firings may break the law and impact U.S. military readiness. CNN's Natasha Bertrand is with us now. Natasha, what are you learning about the reasons these were put on pause?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Brianna. So these mass firings could have affected over 50,000 probationary civilian employees inside the Pentagon. Essentially those employees who have been on the job for about a year or less, but in some cases up to three years. And we are told that that has now been put on hold pending a review by the Secretary of Defense as well as by the Pentagon's Office of General Counsel to determine what kind of impact such a mass termination could have on U.S. military readiness.

Essentially, there is a law, Title 10, U.S. Code -- of the U.S. Code, Section 129a is the specific code here that says that the Secretary of Defense may not reduce the number of civilian employees inside the Pentagon or reduce the overall number of civilian employees in the workforce without first conducting some kind of serious analysis about how such a reduction could impact national security, how it could impact lethality and readiness of the U.S. military.

Because a lot of these employees, of course, they do carry out very critical functions. Some of them are in intelligence, cybersecurity, foreign military sales, things that are very critical to operational readiness and mission critical operations. And so it would be potentially very disruptive to have them all fired at once.

It's for that reason that we also saw defense officials scrambling to make lists of individual workers who they believe should be exempt from these mass firings because of the potential impact letting them go could have on U.S. national security. And we've already seen, of course, across the federal government, other agencies have had to kind of claw back employees that they have let go because of this very concern, because they were actually more critical to that agency's functioning than was previously known.

So this is what they're doing right now. It's a pause. It is unlikely to last very long, we're told, but it is giving the lawyers and the office of the Secretary of Defense a little bit of time here to make totally sure that everyone that they're letting go here is not going to impact the readiness of the U.S. military.

KEILAR: All right. Natasha Bertrand, thank you so much for the report. Joining us now to talk about these developments and more is Republican Congressman Pat Harrigan of North Carolina. He's a former Green Beret and he's a member of the House Armed Services Committee. Congressman, thank you so much for being with us. What's your reaction to the Pentagon putting these sweeping terminations on pause?

REP. PAT HARRIGAN, (R) NORTH CAROLINA: Hey, thanks for having me today, Brianna. I really appreciate it. Look, I think it's a prudent pause, right? Secretary Hegseth came out, reviewed the law. I think that everybody needs to understand that as the administration has gone through the process that they need to go through to rid our government bureaucracy of fraud, waste and abuse that we have to do it in accordance with the law.

[14:20:02]

And so I think that this is proof positive that they're doing it, that they're taking it slow. They're being very exacting about the next steps that they're going to take. And I think it's very prudent.

KEILAR: I do want to talk about the Pentagon budget, which is another part of what appears to be the downsizing here. Hegseth, Secretary Hegseth outlining 8% cuts a year for five years. Your house Republican budget increases the budget for the Pentagon by $100 billion. Trump actually backs that. I know you want it increased. How do you square those proposed cuts with a proposed increase?

HARRIGAN: All of that squaring is happening right now. And I think you laid it out pretty well, Brianna. Everybody's in a little bit different position right now. You've got House Armed Services, which is looking at, you know, kind of another $260 billion on top of where we are right now. President Trump last week came out and said, cut it by 50%. Secretary Hegseth said, drop it by 8% a year for five years.

And the reality is, the truth is probably as it always is, somewhere in the middle. And what we need to do is we need to get the senior leaders from the military. We need to get the branch chiefs. We have got to get senior folks from the Hill and senior folks from industry together and figure out how we actually need to move forward in the Department of Defense with respect to our budgetary apparatus.

And I think, you know, and I want to take up too much time with this, but we are at a very interesting point in our history where we're in a historic defense squeeze, because not only are we $36.3 trillion in debt, we're running a $1.8 trillion a year deficit. Our debt to GDP ratio is as high as it's ever been at 123%. We are also spending less on defense than we ever have since World War II, at 2.9% of GDP. So there's a lot of work that needs to go into squaring all of this together.

KEILAR: And I do want to turn to the war in Ukraine. Your Senator Thom Tillis calling for lawmakers to be real about the risks that Vladimir Putin poses to the world. I want to play part of what he said on the Senate floor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. THOM TILLIS, (R) NORTH CAROLINA: Whoever believes that there is any space for Vladimir Putin and the future of a stable globe better go to Ukraine, they better go to Europe. They better invest the time to understand that this man is a cancer and the greatest threat to democracy in my lifetime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: As I said, you're a former Green Beret de oppresso liber. That's to free the oppressed, the motto. You've been very clear about who that is in this war. But Russia is at the table with the Trump administration. How important do you think it is that Ukraine has a real seat at the table in these negotiations?

HARRIGAN: Look, I think the greatest threat to democracy in the history of this country is actually the debt and deficit. And we need to be very clear eyed about this. And this is some very tough talk that needs to happen. But President Trump is actually having these talks right now.

If we don't have the dollar, we have nothing. And I think it's pretty rich that most of the Congress, I will say congressional representatives and senators that are the very closest to Ukraine on this topic, that are the most vocally supportive of Ukraine, are also the same people that have never seen a spending bill that they didn't vote for.

And we've got to understand, it really is not about whether you are for or against Ukraine in this conflict right now. It is about the baseline understanding that we are 36.3 trillion in debt. We're running a $1.8 trillion a year deficit, and this is the single greatest threat to our national security that we have ever had. And if we do not respect our dollar with our spending, we will not be able to do the things that we want to do around the world --

KEILAR: I hear you on that, sir. I hear you on that, sir. It seems Congress can focus on both of these things. I'm asking you about whether Ukraine should have a seat at the table, a real seat at the table in these negotiations.

HARRIGAN: The answer to this question is we can't focus on both things. And I think, Brianna, this is what's so important to get out of this. And this is what I'm trying to convince all of my colleagues in Congress that we're in this situation. We were doomed to fail in Ukraine because we're losing the economics of wars. We are producing the high cost problems to our enemy's low cost solutions.

And so as we find ourselves collectively $350 billion into this war, we are getting our tushes kicked by Russia and China and their ilk, who are producing very inexpensive weapons that are bleeding us dry. President Reagan orchestrated the most amazing financial takedown of the Soviet Union. And we do not understand that Putin and Xi are orchestrating the exact same takedown of the United States in real time. Right now, we are the frog in the proverbial water bowl that is getting boiled.

[14:25:04]

KEILAR: Well, then, let me ask you this. You're one of a number of people who think that Putin saw the way the U.S. withdrew from Afghanistan as an open invitation to invade Ukraine. You have two Bronze stars from your service in Afghanistan. You were in some pretty hairy places. You're one of a relative few people in Washington who really knows what it means to go to war.

So how much is riding on this negotiation to make sure that Putin doesn't take it as an invitation that he can invade a NATO country, which obviously would have ramifications for the U.S. without much pushback?

HARRIGAN: It's incredibly important. I hate the position that we're in right now, but what I want people to understand is that if you care about freedom and democracy and the future of freedom and democracy around the world, you must understand the position the United States of America is in right now.

And we have got to get elected officials in office that respect the dollar because, look, when America fails to lead, the world burns. But America cannot lead if we have an absolutely worthless dollar. That is the problem that we have right now. President Trump is trying to protect it at all costs.

KEILAR: But at this very moment in time, when there is a negotiation going on to end this war, how do you deal with that?

HARRIGAN: I think President Trump and Vice President Vance have been very clear. The war needs to end. It needs to wind down. And it doesn't need to wind down six months from now, 12 months from now, three years from now. It needs to wind down right now. And that's exactly the policy that they're putting in place.

KEILAR: But you of all people have been very clear that it's not just about winding down a war. It's about how you wind down a war.

HARRIGAN: I don't disagree with you there. And what I'm telling you is that we have a clear and existential threat to the future of our country with how far in debt we are and how unmanageable our deficit is moving forward from this point on. We all want -- I live by the motto de oppresso liber. I want to see anyone that wants to be free be free, and I want to help them in that endeavor. The problem is we have to realize that we have consistently spent ourselves into a position where we can no longer do that for the globe. We can't. We have to come back. We have to bring this under control. That's why President Trump is pursuing the policy that he's pursuing. That's why Elon Musk is so involved in the DOGE process, he is legitimately concerned for the good faith and credit of the American dollar and I am too. And so are any clear eyed Republicans that are in Congress right now. This is the path that unfortunately we have to take due to actions that have been taken by the last generation of folks who are in office.

KEILAR: I have many more questions for you, Congressman. Unfortunately we have a little bit of breaking news so I'm going to bid you adieu. Thank you so much for being with us today. Really appreciate your time.

HARRIGAN: Thanks, Brianna. Appreciate you.

KEILAR: And I want to take a look now. This is our breaking news. Luigi Mangione has entered court in Manhattan. So we are getting a look at the man who has been charged with killing UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson.

And you're seeing here all of the security around Luigi Mangione as he makes this very quick move obviously from one area is he's come from the Manhattan Department of Corrections to go there into court. We will continue to follow what happens in court. We'll be back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

End