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Trump Considering Giving 20 Percent Of DOGE Savings Back To Americans; Soon: Trump, Macron To Speak After Oval Office Meeting; Trump, Macron Hold News Conference At White House. Aired 2:30-3p ET
Aired February 24, 2025 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:30:00]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Pay down the debt or send out stimulus checks? It's been a hot debate since President Donald Trump said he's considering a plan to give 20 percent of savings identified by Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency back to taxpayers.
According to the proposal, if DOGE hits its target of $2 trillion in total federal savings, taxpayers could see a refund check of up to $5,000 each.
But some argue that all the money saved by DOJ's cost cutting should be used to pay down the $36 trillion federal debt, and that sending out those checks could also worsen inflation.
With us now to discuss is James Fishback. He is actually the person who originally proposed this DOGE dividend plan that is now under consideration.
OK, so let me ask you about this. You said that this will incentivize people to report waste, fraud and abuse in their local communities. I wonder about that though. Can you give me an example of what that would actually look like?
JAMES FISHBACK, CEO, AZORIA INVESTMENT FIRM & HE PROPOSED GIVING TAXPAYERS REFUNDS FOR SOME DOGE SAVINGS: Absolutely. I grew up in Florida, Brianna, and I saw, after hurricanes, FEMA wasted and abused taxpayer money. And so now you're giving folks the mechanism with DOGE. But more importantly, the incentive.
KEILAR: OK. But like be more specific.
FISHBACK: Sure. So, for example, these Ready to Eat meals after hurricanes, over ordering them and throwing them in dumpsters, that's a really big problem. And so that's collectively millions of dollars of taxpayer funds that are being thrown out and abused.
If you see that, you call it in. Why do you call it in? Because the more that DOGE saves under President Trump's leadership, the bigger your DOGE dividend check is.
KEILAR: You saw that in dumpsters yourself.
FISHBACK: Yes. Because as a kid growing up in Florida, a lot of big hurricanes.
KEILAR: As a kid?
FISHBACK: Yes.
KEILAR: So how would you scale that? Do you think that would actually be a very, very large source of savings?
FISHBACK: I think so. I think, look, the truth is --
KEILAR: How much?
FISHBACK: The truth is the government was spending $4.5 trillion a year in 2019 on its budget. It's now spending $6.5 trillion a year. That's an increase of 45 percent.
To your viewers at home right now, is life in America 45 percent better with all of that spending?
KEILAR: How much would that save?
FISHBACK: Well, that's a good question? We have to find out. We have to deputize, as President Trump said, 100 million people, give them the incentive to report waste, fraud and abuse. When they do that, DOGE saves more and the DOGE dividend is even bigger.
In economics, we learn, show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome. There's no incentive right now for American taxpayers to report waste, fraud and abuse. With the DOGE proposal like this, there is.
KEILAR: You could also find that people crowdsourced stuff that actually isn't waste, fraud and abuse. And now you're wasting resources sifting through it.
FISHBACK: There's always going to be some element of folks overreporting things that aren't actually worth it. We have to cast a very wide net. We're going to find it. There's going to be a process.
KEILAR: Your concerns that sizable checks could add to inflation?
FISHBACK: No concerns. And there are a couple reasons why. The first is recency bias is really powerful. The last time we thought about stimulus checks was under President Biden during covid. A lot of things we're happening then that aren't happening now.
We had the Biden lockdowns. We had the Biden mandates. We had the Biden supply chain disruptions. Those things aren't happening today.
The second thing is this idea of sending out checks to millions of Americans is not new. We do it every tax season. And 120 million Americans last year got a tax refund check at an average of about $3,100.
KEILAR: But this is new. James, you can't say this isn't new.
(CROSSTALK)
FISHBACK: Well, it's certainly a new idea, but we send out money all the time back to Americana.
KEILAR: But this is new money.
FISHBACK: Well --
KEILAR: So you can't conflate the two. And there is something --
FISHBACK: And I don't think it's new money. I think it's their money.
KEILAR: But it --
FISHBACK: It's their money. Taxpayers will spend $270,000 in their lifetime sending money to D.C. DOGE exposed waste, fraud and abuse like the Rock in Sesame Street. It's time to pay restitution back to the taxpayers. They were defrauded.
KEILAR: It's their money.
FISHBACK: It is.
KEILAR: But it's also their debt.
FISHBACK: It's --
KEILAR: It's all of our debt. It's actually --
FISHBACK: Yes.
KEILAR: And, James, as you're well aware, it's our kids' debt --
FISHBACK: I agree.
KEILAR: -- and it's our grandkids' debt and they --
FISHBACK: Our great-grandkids' debt.
KEILAR: And they will have the benefit of paying it back with more interest than we will. So why take out the 20 percent?
FISHBACK: Take out the 20 percent for one big reason. We have to incentivize Americans for DOGE to even save more.
There's two states of the world, Brianna, the first of which is DOGE and Trump and the engineers keep finding stuff. It's been really good.
The second state of the world --
(CROSSTALK)
FISHBACK: -- is having 100 --
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: You're going to make it -- they're going to make.
FISHBACK: Because we're going to have 100 million Americans deputized to report waste, fraud and abuse. It's the largest snitch network against government fraud. And it should absolutely happen.
We are going to make it back. We also need to pay restitution to the American people for all of this abuse.
KEILAR: You said, with inflation, there are things that are not happening now that we're happening before.
FISHBACK: Correct.
KEILAR: There's also something happening now that was not happening at that point in time, and that is that inflation is at 3 percent. And as you're aware, it has actually just gone up, the biggest monthly increase since August of 2023. Inflation hasn't been this high since last summer.
How can you not have concerns about inflation and infusing that kind of new money? The money -- if you're talking about a Rocky Sesame Street and there's a debate to be had about that, I'm not going to have it with you.
[14:35:06]
But that's money that was going to another economy. Now you're bringing it into the American economy. That is new money that would stimulate the American economy.
Some people would say, great, but that is money that would add to inflation.
FISHBACK: So it depends, Brianna, on how they actually spend the money. I want to read from some Americans here who actually tweeted at me.
I asked them, how would you spend a $5,000 DOGE dividend check? Deborah Augustine, "I'd use it to pay off debt."
Enrique Gimenez, "Pay off accrued debts."
Kaitlan Brennan, "Pay off my all my current debt."
Paying off debt is not inflationary. It's deflationary. It matters how they spend the money.
If you want to go to Louis Vuitton and go to the movie theater and go out and get haircuts, that's one thing.
But if you want to pay down the debt that you had to take on because Biden printed too much money and put us in the worst inflation since a guy named Paul Volcker had to break the back of inflation in the 1980s, that's a different story. It's how the money is spent.
And secondarily, it's the greater context. Oil prices are down 8 percent since President Trump took office. Drill, baby, drill means more oil, oil production, and it means lower energy prices across the board. You know that that filters through to the economy.
So --
KEILAR: I think it's lovely that some people tweeted that at you. We cannot use that as any sort of indication of how they'll actually spend their money. Past shows us that's not.
But then let me ask you this about --
FISHBACK: Well, that was -- that was Covid.
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: James, let me ask you this because we have a limited amount of time.
If you're talking about paying down the debt and being fiscally conservative here, we just need to be clear about what this is, because I think a lot of people think a check would be nice. Who doesn't think that? Right?
But when you're thinking about fiscal concerns, because this is certainly being marketed as if you're paying people like 20 percent of a surplus that you have.
But that's not what it is. It's really like if you had a $36 trillion credit card bill and you had enough money that you'd save to pay off maybe something modestly more than the minimum payment, but you decided to take 20 percent of what you could pay and pocket it.
FISHBACK: Yes.
KEILAR: That's really what it's more like. And I don't think people understand that.
FISHBACK: Where is this newfound focus on fiscal responsibility at CNN? With all due respect, are you opposed to sending Ukraine new money because we're a national debt as well?
KEILAR: I'm asking you a question about fiscal conservatism right now and the budget.
FISHBACK: Sure. But -- but I'm just curious, are you opposed --
(CROSSTALK)
FISHBACK: -- to all new funding?
KEILAR: I've asked many questions about it.
FISHBACK: No, I know. But are you opposed to all new funding, like Ukraine, for example, since we're at $36 trillion of debt as well? The American people deserve restitution.
What DOGE has uncovered --
KEILAR: I think --
FISHBACK: -- is waste, fraud and abuse.
KEILAR: James, we've had many people on to have conversations about Ukraine and how money should be spent and whether there is -- there should be some sort of process. That's a conversation that should definitely be had.
FISHBACK: Absolutely.
KEILAR: And those are questions I would definitely ask.
So then let me ask you again --
FISHBACK: Yes.
KEILAR: -- instead of pivoting to Ukraine, will you please answer my question?
FISHBACK: What is your question?
KEILAR: Are you serious?
OK, my question was it's like you had a $36 trillion credit card debt.
FISHBACK: Yes. Who owns the debt? Who owns the debt?
KEILAR: Americans.
FISHBACK: The American people. We hold the debt.
KEILAR: That's right.
FISHBACK: So what your saying is we want an advance payment on the debt because the government's defrauded us. We want advance --
KEILAR: But that's more money. That's more debt money?
FISHBACK: We want an advance payment.
KEILAR: And our children are on the hook for it.
FISHBACK: Our children are on the hook for the absolute abuse under the Biden-Harris administration, $7 trillion.
KEILAR: They're going to be on the hook for this, too.
FISHBACK: Look, at the end of the day, what we need to do is incentivize the American people to actually report waste, fraud and abuse.
KEILAR: Ok, James, we've talked about that. But this is a conversation we could continue. Unfortunately, we are out of time.
FISHBACK: But debate is good.
KEILAR: I do appreciate the discussion.
James Fishback, thank you so much for being with us.
FISHBACK: Thank you.
KEILAR: Thank you.
And moments from now, President Trump and French President Macron will be holding a press conference. We saw them in the Oval Office just a short time ago. They'll be taking more questions here as Europe is pushing for a seat at the table in negotiations to end the war in Ukraine.
[14:38:57]
Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:43:33]
KEILAR: And we are standing by for breaking news. At any moment now. President Trump and French President Emmanuel Macron will be holding a joint press conference at the White House.
JIMENEZ: Let's bring in CNN's Kaitlan Collins, who is at the White House.
Kaitlan, can you just set the stage for what we expect to hear in just a few moments?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we saw the two leaders gathered in the Oval Office earlier on this third anniversary of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
We just got the notice that they should be here inside the East Room at any moment. They've been meeting behind closed doors to talk about what, of course, is at the forefront of Trump's second term in office right now, now that he's a month into returning to power.
Which is this effort to bring this war to an end. And we heard from President Trump earlier in the Oval as he sat next to the French president saying that he believes this war could be over within weeks and that he could be visiting Moscow as soon as potentially this spring.
Obviously, which would be a notable moment, making him the first U.S. president in some time to visit Russia since President Obama was in office in 2013, I believe.
But the real question here is how that war could come to an end and what that looks like. And you saw the stark differences laid out. Even though they we're being friendly and speaking in friendly terms earlier, as these two leaders we're sitting side by side. Trump refusing to call President Putin a dictator, which he referred to President Zelenskyy as last week, something he said he does not take lightly.
As you listen to the French president sitting next to him, President Macron saying that Russia is clearly the aggressor here and repeatedly turning this conversation back to Russia's responsibility for invading Ukraine on this day three years ago.
[14:45:04]
And so a very high-stakes meeting between these two world leaders, where they were discussing other issues, like China as well, and their joint efforts on that.
But the real question is going to be what this effort looks like going forward and just how divergent the paths are that the U.S. and Europe take when it comes to this.
There was a remarkable moment that I will point out to you inside that Oval Office meeting earlier, where the president was characterizing Europe's nature of support to Ukraine as alone.
Effectively saying that they are going to be paid back for all of the money that they have sent or aid that they have provided to Ukraine.
The French president quickly interjected -- he's someone who knows Donald Trump well and has interacted with him on multiple occasions over the years -- to correct Trump and say that that that characterization, because of the billions of dollars that they have, hundreds of billions in frozen Russian assets that they have, saying that that is not exactly going to be a loan, that they are not getting that money back.
It was a remarkable moment that also shows you just how frank these conversations can be in front of the cameras, but also behind closed doors as well.
KEILAR: Yes, Kaitlan, they seem to have a very good rapport, which may give Macron some latitude in that kind of thing. But at the same time, Trump is certainly someone who does not like to be corrected.
COLLINS: Yes. Well, the question is how much latitude that is.
This is a world leader who, unlike some others, including the British prime minister, who will be visiting here in a matter of days, has interacted with Trump and negotiated with him and been behind closed doors and had extended handshakes with him on many occasions before.
And so, yes, they do know each other quite well, and he understands Trump's style.
The question is whether or not Europe can have real influence on President Trump's thinking here. His argument has been that the way that they have handled this the last three years has not brought this war to an end, and that he is here and he can change that and that his tactic may be better.
It is notable, though, that this comes as you saw what happened at the United Nations this morning with the -- the U.S. abstaining from one resolution and voting against another, condemning Russia for its invasion of Ukraine, just to speak of how the different tactics that they are trying here.
But this is a test for all world leaders, is how they interact with the U.S. president, what those interactions look like. And, yes, it was jovial at times there in the Oval Office. And it did speak to -- to the nature of the relationship that the French president felt that he could interrupt Trump and talk about that aid to Ukraine and what that looks like.
The question is what those tangible results look like and what it looks like when they come out here in just a few moments to take reporters' questions and talk about these closed-door meetings with their delegations.
I will note the French delegation is in here. So is the U.S. delegation as well. Which means we should expect to see the world leaders at any moment.
JIMENEZ: And, Kaitlan, just -- just for process, because we are expecting to see these leaders at any moment. We've heard the president talk about, as he has many times, that this war would not have happened if he we're in office at the time, now three years ago to the day.
But also, as he was led by questions, that, at some point, he does look forward to and hopes to meet with President Putin at some point in the future.
Do we have a sense on how he is expecting to frame the United States efforts, not just to French President Macron, but even to the U.K. prime minister when he comes later this week as well.
COLLINS: Well, that's the question in two -- in terms of how they negotiate with him and what that looks like.
Because Trump has made quite clear, he believes having a conversation with the Russian leader is the way to go here. He talked about the fact that President Biden, President Putin, had not spoken directly after Russia invaded Ukraine.
Of course, Biden had his own summit with Putin, which some of his own advisers advised against when they met in Geneva. Trump himself has sat down with Putin before and very much has made clear he plans to do so again.
The question is when and how and what that looks like. They have said that any meeting when it comes to this negotiation to end this war would happen in Saudi Arabia.
We've spoken to White House officials about this, and really it depends on -- on -- on the progress of these talks and how this is going.
One other key part of this has been that minerals deal that we have been reporting on and talking about. The treasury secretary said in the Oval Office earlier he believes that deal is essentially on the one yard line.
That comes after those comments that we heard from President Zelenskyy over the weekend, talking about how he essentially believed it was an unfair deal to Ukraine, of how much money they we're going to have to invest in that fund to the tune of half a billion -- $500 billion.
And what that would look like for his country when it comes to how much they have been given between the United States and Europe and what that path would look like going forward.
That's a real question of if that deal gets signed and what it looks like going forward.
And now here comes the president and the French president.
(APPLAUSE)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, thank you very much, everyone.
Great honor to be here with my friend. I'm delighted to welcome President Macron back to the White House. We've been together quite often, but not that often in the White House.
[14:50:03]
We honored the president and first lady of France not so long ago. It was a beautiful evening and we will not soon forget it. It was a beautiful day and evening and many fond memories.
I also want to thank Emmanuel for hosting me in Paris last December after a historic election win to witness the reopening of the spectacular Notre Dame cathedral.
Where you did an outstanding job in bringing it back together. That was a sad day watching that burn. And five years later, you had it up and it was a -- they say, more beautiful than it was before. So I think that's a great achievement. It was not easy.
France is America's oldest ally. Our cherished partnership has been a force for freedom, prosperity and peace from the very beginning. We are now working on some very interesting developments. One in particular, as you know, the war between Russia and Ukraine.
In the American revolution, French support helped us to seize our destiny as an independent nation. In the first and second world wars, our citizens shed blood together on the battlefields of Europe.
And I'll never forget joining President Macron six years ago in the 75th anniversary of D-Day. That was some day. The purpose of our meeting today is to end another battle, a really
horrible one, a war, something that we haven't seen since the Second World War that is ravaging European soil. The deadliest and most destructive conflict that one can imagine.
I've seen the pictures. I've seen the satellite photos and -- and lots of other photos. And it's a horrible thing that's happening. Thousands of people are dying a week.
This very day is the third anniversary of the invasion of Ukraine, which would never have happened if I was president. That was not going to happen.
The horrors of this gruesome and bloody war can scarcely be overestimated. Hundreds of thousands of people, Russians and Ukrainians, in particular, have needlessly died.
An entire generation of Ukrainians and Russian men has been decimated. One-thousand year-old cities have been turned into rubble. Those beautiful spires that you used to see there, they were most beautiful in the world, they say, are lying in heaps of rubble. Blasted to smithereens.
And it's time to end this bloodletting and restore peace. And I think we're going to do it. We've had some great conversations, including with Russia.
Since my return to the White House, we've made more progress toward that goal in one month than occurred in the past three years.
And I've spoken with both President Putin and President Zelenskyy. And again, a lot of a lot of good things toward peace are happening. Moving it, I think, pretty quickly.
Last week, Secretary of State Marco Rubio, national security adviser, Michael Waltz, and special envoy, Steve Witkoff, conducted successful talks in Saudi Arabia with the delegation from Russia.
And I'd like to thank the kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the king and Mohammed, great people. They're really working hard to get this done.
Our focus is on achieving a ceasefire as soon as possible and ultimately a permanent peace.
My meeting with President Macron today was another important step forward in that in -- that sphere, because he's been very much involved right from the beginning in trying to get it over with, and we're going to get it done.
I believe that Emmanuel agrees with me on many of the most important issues, chief among them is this is the right time. It may be the only time.
You know, that's a very interesting and horrible situation, and that could evolve into a third world war. We're not going to let that happen. Should have never started, but it did. And what a mess. What a horrible, bloody mess.
I'm also pleased that President Macron agrees that the cost and burden of securing the peace must be borne by the nations of Europe, not alone, by the United States, and Europe must take that central role in ensuring long term security of Ukraine, which they want to do.
And that's not a very big step. A big step is what's going to happen over the next few weeks.
The United States has put up far more aid for Ukraine than any other nation, hundreds of billions of dollars. We've spent more than $300 billion, and Europe has spent about $100, $100 billion. That's a big difference.
And at some point, we should equalize. But hopefully, we won't have to worry about that. We have other things happening that maybe take that out of the realm of necessity.
[14:55:09]
And while we've given vast amounts of military aid and money in form of grants, much of Europe's contribution has been economic relief, structured as loans for which they will be repaid.
Like the Europeans, I believe that taxpayers and the United States also deserve to recoup the colossal amounts of money that we've sent. The previous administration never even thought of that. They didn't think of a lot of things.
Like, why did they let it start in the first place? That is why we must have an agreement with Ukraine on critical minerals and rare earths and various other things as security.
And I think that that's happening. I think we've made a lot of progress. I had a report just given to me before walking in that we've made Emmanuel a great deal of progress toward getting that.
I've been elected by the American people to restore common sense to Washington and, indeed, to the world.
And I believe strongly that it's in the best interests of the United States, the best interests in Europe, the best interests of Ukraine and, indeed, the best interests of Russia to stop the killing now and bring the world to peace.
My administration is making a decisive break with the foreign policy failures of the past administration and, frankly, the past.
I ran against a very foolish foreign policy establishment. And their recklessness has led to the death of many, many people. Under our administration, we're forging a new path that promotes peace around the world.
And when I left office for the first administration, first term, we had no wars. We had no problems. We didn't have October 7th with Israel. We didn't have Russia and Ukraine going at it. We didn't have the problems in other parts of the Middle East. We
didn't have inflation. It was a whole different world.
And you know what else? We didn't have millions of people pouring through our borders, many of them criminals released from other nations and put right into our land, murderers and drug dealers, gangs. We didn't have any of that.
It's a different time. But now we have it and we're fixing it. Well fix it all up. Well get it done as quickly as possible. And we've made a great deal of progress.
People are saying it was the best month for a president in our country's history. I hope that's right. But I feel it's right. We've -- we've done a lot of things in a very short period of time, four weeks.
As I've said before, it's my hope that my greatest legacy, however, will be as a peacemaker and a unifier. I want to bring peace, not war.
I thank President Macron for joining us today in this urgent work we're doing. We have some wonderful people up front right here that have worked so hard.
Steve Witkoff, thank you very much.
And, Michael Waltz, thank you.
Scott, thank you very much.
And, J.D., thank you.
They've really done a -- they've really done a job. They worked very hard. It's like it's a real passion to get this war ended.
And I'd like to now invite Emmanuel to say a few words and then we'll take questions.
And again, Emmanuel, it's a great honor to have you with us at the White House. Thank you very much. Please.
EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Donald.
Ministers, ladies and gentlemen, mesdames and messieurs.
(through translation): Ladie and gentlemen, I'll be saying a few words in French.
Thank you very much, Mr. President, dear Donald, for your hospitality and for this visit.
As you mentioned, we have had the opportunity to meet over the past few years, since your first term. We have been able to discuss matters in Paris and also here at the White House. And it has always been a great joy to do that. And I would like to commend you and thank you, Mr. President, for
extending this friendship to France and taking part in the ceremony at Notre Dame that you mentioned before. It was a great honor for the French people to reopen the cathedral to the rest of the world. And your presence was a testament to that friendship.
As the president said, this friendship dates back to the Revolutionary War, since the beginning of the United States. And whenever we've needed to, we've been able to come together and be on the right side.
We have been able to be united to defend peace and sovereignty, namely, in the two world wars that marked the 20th century. From Lafayette to Pershing and to the many Americans who landed on Omaha Beach.
[14:59:58]
And we spoke earlier before, and you mentioned that one of those gentlemen was able to visit you here, one of the veterans. This is --
