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What Do Mass Layoffs Mean For Overall Economy? Vatican: Pope "Rested Well All Night," Still In Critical Condition; Bongino On New FBI Role: "Cutesy Time Is Over." Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired February 25, 2025 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:30:35]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: All right. President Trump and Elon Musk's efforts to rapidly shrink the size of the federal government has led to thousands -- tens of thousands of layoffs. The move having, of course, a devastating effect on the families directly affected here. But what do all these cuts mean for the job market and the economy as a whole?

CNN's Matt Egan is joining me now. What are economists saying about these widespread terminations that are coming all at once and not just, of course, in D.C. where a lot of people think of federal workers but across the country?

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Yeah, Sara. This is another shock to the economy. We're talking about mass layoffs in what is the largest employer in the United States, the federal government, right? There's three million civilians who work for the federal government. Some context: that is equivalent to the U.S. workforces of Amazon, Walmart, and UPS combined. Think about that for a moment.

And now this federal workforce is under siege as Elon Musk and the Trump administration -- they try to cut costs. They try to make the government more efficient. There are estimates that perhaps 200,000 to 300,000 federal workers could get laid off here. This is, of course, devastating to all the families who rely on government paychecks.

But the economists that I'm talking to -- they're not overly alarmed about what this means to the economy at large.

SIDNER: Yeah.

EGAN: They're not projecting a spike to the unemployment rate. They're not warning of an imminent recession, and I think that's for two reasons.

One, it's because while the federal workforce is big, the U.S. economy itself is even bigger. Look at this. So the three million federal government workers -- if you put that in context overall there's 171 million workers in the economy at large. So this represents just less than two percent. The other thing here is there are more job openings than there are workers to fill them. So there is hope that these laid off federal workers are going to get rehired in the private sector.

But look, there's a lot of unknowns here, right?

SIDNER: Yeah.

EGAN: This is not coming out in neatly presented government filings or SEC filings, right? This is coming out in drips and drabs, and email leaks, and court fights. So there's a lot of uncertainties here.

And it's not happening in a vacuum, right? There's also the immigration crackdown. There's the on again-off again trade war. There's uncertainty over the tax cuts and what's going to happen there. And this is just another uncertainty.

SIDNER: It is.

And so what do these government layoffs mean, particularly though for Washington, D.C. and other local economies?

EGAN: Yeah, Sara. Look, the impact for those economies is going to be much more dramatic. When you look at the D.C. area with Virginia and Maryland, we're talking about almost a quarter of all federal workers who are in that area.

But it's not just D.C. A number of states have congressional districts where federal government workers make up a large percentage of the total workforce, including Washington State, Colorado, New Mexico, Texas, Ohio, North Carolina, and Georgia.

And there is a domino effect here when there are these layoffs because some workers are going to have to sell their homes. So you could see home prices take a hit.

Some workers who get laid off -- they're going to stop spending at some of those local businesses.

And I do want to just stress here we are talking about real people who have real families and real dreams.

I talked to a 24-year-old woman in Iowa who found out on Valentine's Day that she had been laid off from the U.S. Geological Service. And she said she feels like a lot of this is just a waste because the government spent all this time and money training her and now they have to rehire -- find someone else to fill her position. And she's got to find a way to pay back $25,000 in student debt. And by the way, Sara, now she's got to go on unemployment which, of course, is funded by the government.

SIDNER: Yeah. It is all a tangle, isn't it?

Matt Egan, I had to come over here but I -- it's no slight against you. It was a great report. I appreciate you.

EGAN: Thank you, Sara.

All right. Joining me now is former White House spokesperson for President George W. Bush, Pete Seat. And CNN political commentator and Democratic strategist Maria Cardona. Thank you both for being here.

We -- you heard Matt Egan talking about some of these effects of layoffs around the country. And CNN has also talked to workers inside the federal government. One of them is calling this confusion, another saying this is bedlam -- that we don't know who is in charge. Some of Trump's elected agencies leaders are saying one thing and Trump and Musk are saying another thing.

[07:35:00]

This is all being battled out also in court.

I mean, is this good for America, Pete, ultimately?

PETE SEAT, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SPOKESPERSON FOR PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER SPOKESPERSON, INDIANA REPUBLICAN PARTY (via Webex by Cisco): It's not good for America, ultimately.

Look, I am very sympathetic to the idea and the critical mission that I think DOGE is undertaking and that is trying to cut spending and reduce the size and scope of the federal government. However, at times, it looks like the keystone cops are executing this operation. And we have another story almost daily where they have to backtrack on some of these indiscriminate firings and layoffs.

But I would say to federal employees this could be a self-fulfilling prophecy if they -- if they are too anxious, if they're feeling anxiety and their motivation goes down and they're not producing, that could ultimately result in the worst, which is losing their jobs.

So this is a time, if any time exists, to step it up and work twice as hard as ever.

SIDNER: Maria, does this seem like it's being done on productivity because in some cases it appears it's just slashing and it has nothing to do with the work that you've done in the past?

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: It has absolutely nothing to do with productivity, Sara, and I think that is one of the problems.

You have somebody like Elon Musk with his teenage band of minions who know nothing about government going in and slashing and burning and taking a wrecking ball to what should be done in a strategic way.

Look, Pete's right. We all should be for cutting waste, fraud, and abuse. The problem is that is not what these people are doing. They are going indiscriminately and cutting everything because they don't know what they're doing, and they think that just slashing and burning and breaking things is what Americans want. And look, Americans do want to make sure that their federal government works better but the way to do it is to actually go in there with people who know what they're doing. These people don't know what they're doing.

And it's not just the cost of these people's lives and livelihoods, it's a cost to the lives and livelihoods of Americans at large. And you had people going in and firing federal workers from our

nuclear facilities but then they had to go up and say oops, you know what? No, we need to hire those people back because they do important jobs. They fired people that were in charge of foodborne illnesses. Oh, no -- wait, we do need those people.

This is the problem. They have no clue what the federal government does.

The vast majority of these workers are dedicated, committed public servants who are doing a service to all of us keeping us safe. Making sure that our lives and livelihoods are the best that they can be. Keeping our children educated. Making sure that our seniors are taken care of. Making sure that low-income families have the food that they need to feed their kids.

It's all of these services that the government provides that now Republicans are finding out actually that their constituents like, which is why they are being faced at their town halls with really pissed off constituents. And I think it's going to come back and bite Republicans in the ass.

SIDNER: We have seen that once in Georgia in a deeply red area where -- you know, during a town hall one of the Republican representatives faced the wrath of the voters there concerned about what they were seeing from the Trump administration.

I want to talk to you about sort of the U.S. on the global scale. Republican Congressman Dan Bacon (sic) said this and I'm going to quote him here. He said, "The Trump administration royally screwed up today on Ukraine."

Explain to us how the U.S. couldn't even agree on a U.N. resolution supporting Ukraine and condemning Moscow's unprovoked invasion three years ago into Ukraine. This is a remarkable change in U.S. policy.

SEAT: Well, we also have to decide whether or not words on paper actually matter. Whether these toothless demands from the United Nations make a difference. They might make a difference to the diplomats who sit in Turtle Bay at the United Nations who will think that they did something meaningful. That draft that the United States did not support demanded that Russia stop the invasion. That's not going to put an end to this war.

What will put an end to this war is negotiations. And it is an implicit acknowledgment that Russia is the aggressor. That the United States is sitting and talking with them first. Ukraine didn't start this. Russia started it.

[07:40:00]

SIDNER: But that's not what Donald Trump says.

SEAT: Russia is the one that will have to lay down their arms first.

SIDNER: Donald Trump says that Russia did not start this. SEAT: And -- but it is an implicit acknowledgment. But Sara -- But Sara, do you really think that the Russians are going to be encouraged and interested in negotiating in anything close to good faith if we're out there constantly attacking them?

And that's what I think this resolution was. It was not necessary for the greater end game. It would just make some folks at the U.N. feel good about themselves. They could pat each other on the back and maybe a couple of high fives and hugs, and that would be the end of it. We need to end the war and do things that actually matter to end this war.

SIDNER: Yeah. You may be right about some of that, but diplomacy does matter. And when people are talking and trying to get to a solution, they do have to have some of these messages put out. That is sort of what the United States has always done, but they're not doing it anymore.

Pete Seat, Maria Cardona, thank you both so much -- appreciate it -- John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. This morning the Vatican says Pope Francis rested well all night but is still in critical condition battling double pneumonia at a hospital in Rome.

CNN's Ben Wedeman is there right now. Ben, let's get the very latest from you. What do we know about the Pope's condition?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONENT: Well, apparently, what we heard from Vatican sources is that he's in basically the same condition he was in yesterday, which continues to be critical. But they say there is slight improvement. That even though he continues to receive oxygen it's at a lower flow and a lower concentration. That his kidney situation, although it's described as insufficient functions, it is not something that the doctors are particularly concerned about.

We're told that the Pope is not bedridden. That he's eating normally. That he can stand up and move around. But nonetheless, the concern is that for somebody who is 88 years old and who has a history of respiratory problems, who over the weekend had to receive blood transfusions and oxygen, and had renal failure briefly, the concern is that even though there is a slight improvement now that that's no guarantee going forward that he's going to actually recover from this.

So the doctors are being very cautious but as I said, they do say there has been a slight improvement in his situation -- John.

BERMAN: Ben, you've covered so much from Rome and so many different papacies. What's the level of transparency you think you're getting from the Vatican at this point about the Pope's condition and the language they're using?

WEDEMAN: Certainly, what we're -- and under Pope Francis there has been a certain more, we can say, transparency in terms of describing the situation. On a variety of occasions we've had doctors come out and explain in quite a decent level of detail exactly what his condition is. So they've been fairly transparent.

Now, going back to previous situations -- for instance, when 20 years ago at this point of the year when John Paul II was clearly ailing, the messages were somewhat confused. We heard, for instance, just hours before the death of John Paul II was announced that he had eaten several biscuits for breakfast. We're not getting that sort of mixed message at the moment.

So the feeling is the Vatican is being pretty straightforward about his situation. Nonetheless, that doesn't really relieve the concern of many people who are watching this pontiff trying to work at the same time is suffering from double pneumonia, which is obviously a very serious medical condition.

But we saw last night thousands of people in Saint Peter's Square praying for his quick recovery. And that's going to happen tonight and going forward hopefully until the Pope recovers, John.

BERMAN: Ben Wedeman in Rome. It's great to have you there. Thanks so much for sharing your reporting and your experience with us.

All right. This morning newly released dashcam video of a shocking explosion on a quiet street. So what caused this blast?

And reason number one gillion why you should never let anyone throw out your baseball cards. A 12-year-old gets a surprise of a lifetime.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB KENNING, KEEGAN'S GRANDFATHER: Babe Ruth! Oh my God!

KEEGAN KENNING, 12-YEAR-OLD WHO FOUND RARE SIGNED BABE RUTH BASEBALL CARD: Oh my God! Babe Ruth!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:49:25]

SIDNER: This morning officials are investigating what they call the biggest crypto heist ever. North Korean hackers stole $1.5 billion -- with a b -- from Bybit, the world's second-largest crypto exchange. It happened in just minutes. They have already laundered about $160 million of the stolen loot through accounts linked to North Korean operatives. Experts say these thefts of funds, half of North Korea's missile program.

Bybit says it can cover the loss while U.S. and South Korean investors rush to try and recover the money. So far, only $43 million has been reclaimed.

[07:50:04]

All right, this is just to show you how dangerous a gas leak can be. Watch this (building explosion). Whoa. Shocking new dashcam footage capturing the moment a building in Kansas exploded, sending firefighters running for safety. They were called to the area after hearing that there was a gas leak. And as they were walking towards the building the blast rocked the scene. The cause of the leak under investigation. Thank goodness they didn't get close enough to have to deal with that -- wow.

A rare find now by a 12-year-old turned an ordinary day into an awesome one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

B. KENNING: Babe Ruth! Oh my God!

K. KENNING: Oh my God! Babe Ruth!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: I love that enthusiasm. A young boy and his grandfather spent their President's Day at a sports card store in Indiana bonding over their shared love of baseball cards. What started as a simple card pack opening quickly became historic when he pulled out a one-of-a- kind Babe Ruth card complete with the great Bambino's signature.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

B. KENNING: When we can share this hobby together and do -- and have a grandfather-grandson bonding time -- I mean, that's priceless right there.

K. KENNING: I think I'm going to hold on to it, definitely. It's just one in a -- one in a lifetime pull and I probably will never get anything just like it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: That is super cool. What I love is to see him and his grandfather bonding and how excited they both were. They were both like kids -- wonderful.

John, did you have a, like, a baseball -- are you a baseball card collector person?

BERMAN: Not did I, do I.

SIDNER: Oh, you collect?

BERMAN: And I would just like to say to people whom I might live with I know they take up a lot of space --

SIDNER: (Laughing).

BERMAN: -- but you can see -- you can see they're completely worth it. So thank you for that.

SIDNER: Mrs. Berman, he's sorry is what he's trying to say.

BERMAN: It's OK. It's all going to be OK.

Overnight we heard from Dan Bongino on his podcast for the first time since being named FBI deputy director. He told listeners he is grateful to take the job and will transition out of his role as a right-wing commentator.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN BONGINO, HOST, "THE DAN BONINO SHOW," DEPUTY DIRECTOR, FBI: obviously we're going to be working with a team of people to make this transition from me, political commentator Dan, to deputy director of the FBI Dan. Those are different roles, require different skills. Skills I have and have used before and I plan to use again."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, with us now is the former deputy director of the FBI and CNN senior law enforcement analyst Andrew McCabe.

He says he can sort of flip a switch and turn off the partisan Dan Bongino and go back to a nonpartisan Dan Bongino.

What do you think of that?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR, FBI (via Webex by Cisco): Well, John, that would be great but as an FBI agent I have to say there's no evidence of that, so I'm withholding judgment.

What he will find on day one is a job that has over 80 direct reports, 56 of which run entire field offices. He'll find out that every one of the toughest problems, the hardest decisions in the FBI ends up on his desk. He's going to understand that making those decisions quickly and accurately requires a massive understanding of criminal law and an encyclopedic knowledge of a huge organization with almost limitless capability, and massive problems and chances to make mistakes that really matter to people.

So FBI Dan is going to have a lot of work to do.

BERMAN: Andy, I heard you all day yesterday. You were very eloquent on your views on this pick.

What do you think -- or what qualifications do you think Dan Bongino has or more accurately does not have to fill this role?

MCCABE: Well, there's no evidence John that Dan has any significant leadership experience. You know, as I just mentioned, he's going to find himself in the driver's seat of a massive organization -- 38,000 people, 12,000 agents -- and really responsible for one of the most important missions in this country. That is to protect Americans and to uphold the Constitution.

So without any significant experience leading a large organization without any knowledge of the FBI, and I should say having already expressed a deep antipathy and resentment and distrust of the FBI people, he's going to have a really hard time convincing this workforce that he is with them and motivating them to accomplish the huge things they have to do every day.

BERMAN: And very quickly in 20 seconds or less, Andy, what do you think the people in the FBI are in for?

MCCABE: I think they're in for a really rough ride, you know? They're a -- they're a wise and experienced crew and so I would expect they're probably approaching this entire period with a great deal of skepticism.

BERMAN: Andrew McCabe, thanks for coming on this morning. I really appreciate your time -- Sara.

[07:55:00]

SIDNER: All right. Thank you, John.

President Donald Trump's first month in office has been shock and awe. A show of executive orders, mass layoffs, and upending foreign policy.

Trump voters are paying attention. The question this morning is do they like what they are hearing and seeing from Donald Trump and Elon Musk?

CNN's John King is going all over the map and his latest stop takes him to Colorado to check back in with those who supported the president.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): The Spomer Ranch spans more than 100 acres, home to 60 horses and one last bison.

DAVID HAYES, COLORADO VOTER: This little guy down here, his name is Trouble.

KING (voiceover): A bit ornery at times. Yes, Trouble.

HAYES: You know, it's like Trump. I really don't like him as a person. I think he's arrogant and kind of a jerk but --

KING (voiceover): David Hayes is a funny man.

HAYES: I tried farming for a while and I would rather get run over by a bison, you know.

KING (voiceover): The northern Colorado ranch has been in his family since the 1880s. The White House and Washington are far away.

HAYES: We've got, like, hot dogs.

KING (voiceover): Yes, Hayes wants the government shrunk but he doesn't see a coherent plan, and he doesn't trust Elon Musk. Doesn't believe what he says. Doesn't want Trump letting Musk poke around Social Security or tax files.

HAYES: I don't know how many people he's fired. And, you know, Musk keeps saying, well, I found $1 billion of waste here. And Social Security, there's hundreds and hundreds of people that are collecting it that are between 100 years old and 150. Can you believe any of that crap? He can't substantiate it, but you can't believe it.

KING: Right.

HAYES: So that's a trust issue.

KING (voiceover): A blue-collar rural guy in one of the nation's most competitive congressional districts. A three-time Trump voter who calls the president unfocused and arrogant. But Democrats should hold the celebration.

KING: But if you had a do-over tomorrow and you had to pick again between Trump and Harris, what would you do?

HAYES: I would still do Trump.

KING: So a conservative Independent. Is that fair?

ESMERALDA RAMIREZ-RAY, COLORADO VOTER: Very conservative, independent, yes.

KING (voiceover): So would Esmeralda Ramirez-Ray. She smiles when asked about Trump's frenetic first month.

RAMIREZ-RAY: I voted for that. I love it.

KING: What did you vote for?

RAMIREZ-RAY: I voted for a president that was going to put America first. I voted for a president that was going to secure our borders. And I voted for a president that was going to make sure that we were respected throughout the world. And I believe I'm getting that.

KING (voiceover): Greeley is the northern edge of Colorado's 8th, a congressional district that is 40 percent Hispanic and has a significant undocumented population. Ramirez-Ray is a court interpreter for defendants who don't speak English. She agrees with Trump that some who cross the border illegally are violent criminals, but she wishes he would add that the overwhelming majority are good people.

RAMIREZ-RAY: I was raised as a migrant worker working in the fields. Those are the people that are out there picking their crops. So even though I support Trump, I don't believe that he's the end-all be-all savior of humanity. Nobody is.

TODD WAUFLE, COLORADO VOTER: Now this one, we've had Canadian hoser for a long time before all this stuff came up.

KING: Right.

TODD: All the fights with American and Canadian hockey players and everything.

KING (voiceover): Like Hayes, Todd Waufle says Trump can be arrogant and pompous. But like Ramirez-Ray, he's a fan of the early pace.

WAUFLE: I like him going full speed. Let's get -- let's get things done. Let's find out if the policies work, if they don't work. But, yes, this is the baby brewing system. Boil it up there.

KING (voiceover): Waufle started Satire Brewing seven years ago. Business is good and he constantly debates expanding. But a plan to boost sales by adding canning machines is on hold because of Trump tariffs on aluminum.

WAUFLE: When you fly enough you've got to understand, you know, buckle your seatbelt -- turbulence ahead.

KING (voiceover): Waufle's approach is a trademark of many Trump voters. Accept the things that make you cringe to get the things you want, like a better economy and a stronger border.

WAUFLE: Trump's going to say what he's going to say. And, yes, some of it's going to be exaggerated, some are not going to be true. But at the end of the day, I think you've got, you know, sift through all that. Is he going to get things done? Is he going to get the country moving the right way?

AUSTIN JENKINS, COLORADO VOTER: Let go right in front of your eyes. Just like that.

KING (voiceover): Austin Jenkins voted for lower taxes and less regulation. That would help his small businesses, including this cocktail bar and the Greeley Hatchet House.

JENKINS: He seemed like the lesser of two evils in my opinion.

KING (voiceover): But Jenkins finds the first month unsettling. Not a fan of tariffs or executive orders by the dozens, or Musk popping from agency to agency.

JENKINS: I thought there's supposed to be checks and balances somewhere.

KING: So where do I want to let go, shoulder height?

JENKINS: Right in front of your eyes.

KING: Right from my eyes, OK.

KING (voiceover): Plus, he sees fear in the Latino community. Wishes Trump would find a more compassionate way to improve border security.

JENKINS: I think there's a better way to go about it. I don't know if it's necessarily just force them out.

KING (voiceover): Trump, of course, won't be on the ballot next election but this district will help decide whether Republicans keep their tiny House majority.

JENKINS: The cost of living is getting crazy here in Colorado. And I hope that they would have a -- some kind of an impact of helping that.

KING (voiceover): The new Republican congressman won by just 2,000 votes. His 2026 re-election prospects will likely hinge on Trump's performance. On whether swing voters here see the president as focused on the big issues or veering too far off target.

(END VIDEO TAPE)