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Pope Francis' Health Worsens; Interview With Sen. Ron Wyden (D- OR); Russia and Trump Aligned on Ukraine?. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired March 03, 2025 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:35]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Should Zelenskyy resign? Europe may have the Ukrainian president's back, but after an ugly Oval Office showdown, some U.S. officials are suggesting the war-torn country may need new leadership.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And counterprogramming the president. Some Democrats are planning their own events the same night that President Trump will address Congress as the party is struggling to find its voice with Trump back in the White House.

And a call to action, but not a call to vaccinate. The new health and human services secretary under fire wears latest comments about vaccination and the deadly measles outbreak.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SANCHEZ: The ripple effects from President Trump's fiery White House meeting with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy are still spreading around the globe. The Kremlin is now celebrating the Oval Office tongue-lashing, saying that U.S. foreign policy now aligns with Moscow's vision.

Meantime, Europe is showing a united front without the United States, leaders there taking the lead on Ukraine's defense after embracing Zelenskyy more tightly than ever at a summit held over the weekend. Britain's prime minister now suggesting a coalition of the willing to help arm Ukraine against Russia.

All of this playing out one day before President Trump delivers a prime-time address to a joint session of Congress, where he's expected to lay out his vision for America's future. It's a moment the world will be watching closely.

Let's get the latest from the White House with CNN's Jeff Zeleny.

Jeff, President Trump just lashed out at Zelenskyy again on social media. What can you tell us?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Boris, it's definitely a sign that temperatures have not cooled between the two leaders and the two countries. Even as European leaders were rallying around Volodymyr Zelenskyy all

weekend long, the White House is doing no such thing, with some suggestions of the -- one of the discussions now being on the table, will the U.S. reconsider its existing military aid for Ukraine?

But just a short time ago, the president responded once again to Zelenskyy in a post on TRUTH Social. Let's take a look at that.

The president says this: "This guy doesn't want there to be a peace as long as he has America's backing. And Europe in the meeting they had with Zelenskyy stated flatly that they cannot do the job without the U.S. Probably not a great statement to have been made in terms of a show of strength against Russia. What are they thinking?"

There's a lot of questions, what is President Trump thinking as well, really, as this reorients the world order in ways that we have really not seen in generations here. Boris, as you said, the Kremlin is essentially gleeful with this realignment in Washington, even as some skeptics on Capitol Hill are wondering where the president is going to go from this.

So we're told that there are national security meetings all day long here with the secretary of state, Marco Rubio, and other advisers. A key question is what does President Trump plan to say in his address tomorrow evening to that joint session of Congress about Ukraine? Clearly, he wanted to announce a deal with the rare earths minerals. That will not happen now, but the posture towards Zelenskyy certainly has not ratcheted down since that explosive meeting on Friday -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: Jeff Zeleny live for us at the White House, thank you so much -- Brianna.

KEILAR: As the Trump administration reconsider its support of Ukraine, CNN has learned the U.S. has suspended operations and planning for offensive cyber operations against Russia.

A senior official telling CNN the suspension is a major blow, since planning for such operations takes time and research to carry out and a pause could leave the U.S. vulnerable to Russian cyberattacks.

CNN cybersecurity reporter Sean Lyngaas helped break this story.

Sean, give us the latest.

SEAN LYNGAAS, CNN CYBERSECURITY REPORTER: Well, Brianna, it's actually not unusual to pause operations when you're in a sensitive diplomatic engagement the way the U.S. is right now with Russia.

However, what is striking about this is the context in which it's happening and what we have been talking about on the air in terms of other signals from the Trump administration that it is warming to Russia. U.S. and Russia are in constant state of confrontation in cyberspace.

[13:05:01] Russia has a formidable hacking units that target U.S. critical infrastructure and do have the capability to shut down U.S. infrastructure and certainly collect high-value intelligence. That's why, for the last several years, U.S. Cyber Command, which is the militaries, the Pentagon's offensive and defensive unit, has been engaged with Russia to try to both at times deter them from doing this, but also for the U.S. to collect intelligence on Russian assets.

So the pause in operations does have a lot of U.S. officials concerned about what could come next. One would assume that they would eventually resume operations. However, we can't really assume anything right now, given what we have been talking about in terms of the changing U.S.-Russia relationship.

So it remains to be seen just when the U.S. might resume conducting cyberattacks. However, we can be sure that Russia will continue to target U.S. critical infrastructure, based on all available evidence. And Cyber Command was an important tool that has been built up to try to both protect U.S. democracy and critical infrastructure.

So it's really going to be interesting to see what happens next, Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, certainly is.

Sean Lyngaas, thank you so much.

SANCHEZ: Joining us now to talk more about all of these developments, Josh Rogin, the lead global security analyst for "The Washington Post"'s Intelligence. We're also joined by retired air force Colonel Cedric Leighton, a CNN military analyst. Thank

you both for being with us.

Josh, first to you. Is this step back from U.S. offensive operations against Russia necessary to conduct negotiations over Ukraine?

JOSH ROGIN, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Well, Boris, it's clear that the Trump administration is granting a number of concessions to the Russians in advance of the negotiations. None of them are necessary, but their theory of the cases that this will soften up Putin to make a deal.

And that's what they're doing. That's the thinking behind it. Now, it would be nice, one would think, if some of the pressure that the Trump administration is applying to Zelenskyy and his team could also be applied to the Russians and maybe Zelenskyy people could have a couple more incentives too, but that's just not the way the Trump administration is playing it.

So, right or wrong, this is wrapped up into the Trump administration's broader outreach to Russia. And that is going to go apace no matter what Zelenskyy says or doesn't say.

KEILAR: Yes. So, and, Cedric, tell us what this is, like in very real terms, what the U.S. is pausing, how this is used, especially in the context of the war in Ukraine.

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Right.

So, Brianna, when you look at what the U.S. does in cyber operations, they're basically conduct reconnaissance operations of adversary networks. What -- concretely with Ukraine, they also look at what the Russians are doing against Ukrainian networks.

There was a particular Russian activity known as Sandworm that attacked the entire Ukrainian electric grid. The U.S. was responsible for helping the Ukrainians determine what Sandworm was, how it operated, and what kinds of mitigation could be done to prevent those attacks or at least move those attacks in a less virulent area.

So that's the kind of thing that the U.S. does. It's very important not only for our infrastructure, but it's also important for the Ukrainian infrastructure, as well as NATO's infrastructure.

KEILAR: And, Josh, is this unilateral disarmament when it comes to this kind of stuff? I mean, what's Russia doing here?

ROGIN: Right, it seems as if all the concessions are on the U.S. side and none of the concessions are on the Russian side, which seems like pretty poor negotiating, from where we sit, and there's just no doubt that the Russians have responded to all of the Trump administration's concessions and outreach by doubling down on their positions.

They haven't given an inch, not with the Ukrainians, not with the Americans, at least not yet. Now, again, this is -- the Trump administration is prepared to defend that strategy until they get to the result, which is the talks about the Ukraine war. And, yes, it's possible that Russia is just playing a harder-nosed game than the Trump administration here.

But it's going to play out and eventually the Trump administration is determined to get into that room with Vladimir Putin. And then we will actually see. Then we will see if all of this activity on the Trump administration's part can get something from the Russians.

If it fails, by the way, which I think most people who know the Russians and know Putin thinks it will, then the Trump administration's policy will turn again. So I just think we all have to sort of like -- as much -- as odious as this seems and as counterproductive as this seems, we have to sort of understand that this is a process.

And when we get to the end of the process, there's a good chance that Trump will figure out that Putin is not a dealmaker, doesn't want to end the war, and then he will take a new approach to Russia. So think to remember about Trump foreign policy is not where it is. It's that it can always change and it'll change again and then again.

That's why I think that this story of the break between Ukraine and Washington is not over. It can be repaired. It should be repaired. And although the Trump administration is leaning heavily towards Russia right now, that might not be how it turns out in the end, because Putin has a vote and he tends to always do the wrong thing.

[13:10:15]

SANCHEZ: Colonel, Europe is counting on the relationship to work out and taking the view that Josh is that somehow this will get ironed out, because you had the prime minister of the U.K., Keir Starmer, essentially saying that a peace plan could involve European boots on the ground and planes in the air, but even then peace in Ukraine depends on U.S. assistance.

I wonder if you see it that way. Is it necessary?

LEIGHTON: Well, I think it's a key factor and the Europeans are basically looking at this as an enabler, a key enabler for their activities.

They don't have the logistics that we have in the U.S. They don't have the intelligence resources that we have. The closest would be the British and then the French followed by the Germans in terms of their abilities. What they lack is the ability to take intelligence, for example, and disseminate it down to tactical unit levels.

The U.S. is pretty good at that. That's the kind of thing that the Europeans need and they need to refine those kinds of capabilities. They have some of those capabilities, but not all of them. So when it comes to this, the Europeans could do this on their own. They would need to change some of their organizational structures and some of their ways of doing business.

If they did that, they could definitely succeed against the Russians, because we have seen how poorly the Russians actually do perform in a military sense, given what we have witnessed in Ukraine.

SANCHEZ: Colonel Leighton, Josh Rogin, I appreciate the perspective. Thank you both for being with us.

ROGIN: Any time.

SANCHEZ: Still to come: Do Democrats have a plan to take on President Trump? We're going to find out tomorrow when he addresses a joint session of Congress.

KEILAR: Plus: Could new videos offer crucial clues? The Santa Fe sheriff's office says it will be releasing body camera footage from the officers who found actor Gene Hackman and his wife dead inside their home, as we're learning new details about the couple's final weeks.

And as a deadly measles outbreak in Texas grows, Health Secretary RFK Jr. issues a call to action, but stops short of calling on people to get vaccinated.

These important stories and more all coming up this hour on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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SANCHEZ: President Trump will deliver his first address to Congress of his second term tomorrow night.

And we have new CNN polling showing how the American public views his new term's unprecedented start. More than half of Americans, 52 percent, disapprove of Trump's performance in office, though his approval rating is a few points higher than it was before his first address to Congress back in 2017; 45 percent of Americans see Trump's policy proposals taking the nation in the wrong direction, compared to 39 percent who say that he's taking it in the right one.

And a majority say the president has not paid enough attention to the country's most important priorities, with 52 percent of Americans feeling that way, just 40 percent saying he has the right priorities.

We should note this CNN polling was conducted before President Trump's heated exchange in the Oval Office with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

We want to discuss with Democratic Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon. He's the ranking member of the Senate Finance Committee. He also sits on the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Senator, thank you so much for being with us.

Before we get to Trump's speech tomorrow, I do want to ask you about Ukraine and some of the rhetoric that is coming from the White House. Do you think that a deal for peace in Ukraine would be more likely if President Zelenskyy were to step aside?

SEN. RON WYDEN (D-OR): No, I don't think that is the issue.

The issue is really that Donald Trump has been rewriting history. He's saying that Ukraine started the war. That's not what's going on. We have got to get down to the actual realities on the ground, and that's how you get to an agreement.

SANCHEZ: I do wonder if you think Zelenskyy's approach with Trump could have been different, or if you think this rift was unavoidable, given what you just noted, how vastly differently Zelenskyy and the White House see Russia and Vladimir Putin?

WYDEN: I think the combination of the president and vice president, they had made up their mind ahead of time what was going to go on.

And it was clear that they wanted to use this as a chance to throw some political punches and not try to advance an agreement.

SANCHEZ: On the question of U.S. -- the U.S. suspending offensive cyber operations against Russia, do you think that's an important step toward negotiations for peace in Ukraine?

WYDEN: I'm on the Intelligence Committee, so I can't get into classified matters, but I think, overall, it's a mistake. I mean, cybersecurity is one of the absolutely essential areas for

keeping Americans safe.

SANCHEZ: Now, Senator, to the president's address to Congress tomorrow, instead of attending, you have decided to host a town hall in your home state. Why take that step?

WYDEN: That's what my constituents want. That's what Oregonians, many of them, told me that they were interested in.

They said, we want to hear about Social Security, we want to hear about Medicaid, we want to hear about fighting fires, we want to hear about our veterans. We're not interested in hearing about the Donald Trump alternate reality.

[13:20:00]

So that's why we're doing it. I have had more than 1,100 open-to-all town hall meetings. And when there are big questions on the line, that's what Oregonians expect.

SANCHEZ: I do wonder what you are going to share with them about what Democrats are doing to try to address Trump's agenda.

WYDEN: Well, I'm going to talk about what I'm doing, for example, as the ranking Democrat on the Senate Finance Committee.

And, particularly, I'm leading the fight there to make sure that we don't cut Medicaid, which is a lifeline for Oregonians and so many Americans, to have more tax breaks for billionaires. We're going to lay out essentially what the key choices are.

And you have got Donald Trump stomping on the Constitution. The Constitution gives Congress the power of the purse, and Trump isn't complying.

SANCHEZ: So, outside of letting courts sort whether the executive has the authority through DOGE to conduct what many have seen as a gutting of these federal agencies, what folks like yourself see as an overreach, is there anything Congress can do?

WYDEN: Well, what I'm doing, I'm co-chair of the Whistleblower Caucus.

And, for example, during that spending freeze, one of the first things that happened was there was bedlam with the Medicaid portals. People didn't know where to get information about their medicine and about nursing homes and the like. I led the effort, went online and got the word out within a few hours.

A few hours after that, the Trump people said, we're going to get it fixed. And by the next day, it was fixed. So you use all the tools. You use whistle-blowers. You use the courts. You use the floor of the Congress. You use them all, because, right now, you have got Donald Trump unraveling the separation of powers and what the founding fathers had in mind. And that's why the stakes are so high tomorrow. SANCHEZ: To your point about using all the tools at your disposal, do

you think that Minority Leader Chuck Schumer should call on Democrats to reject unanimous consent agreements?

WYDEN: Well, certainly, we are looking at all the procedural tools right now.

For example, in the Senate Finance Committee, we're looking at ways in which we can strengthen our opportunity to get information from the various nominees. We haven't been able to get that from Treasury. So the procedural rules of the Senate are one of the areas we're looking at to have more strength to carry out our positions and our values.

SANCHEZ: It sounds like it's under consideration. What would it take for you to suggest to the minority leader that that should be the course of action?

WYDEN: It certainly ought to be one of the tools on the table. I'm not going to try to micromanage the Senate from the Rotunda, but it certainly ought to be one of the things we look at.

SANCHEZ: Sure.

Senator Ron Wyden, we have to leave the conversation there. Appreciate you joining us.

WYDEN: Thanks for having me.

SANCHEZ: Of course -- Brianna.

KEILAR: We have breaking news into CNN, an alarming update on Pope Francis from the Vatican.

CNN's Christopher Lamb with us now.

Christopher tell us what the Vatican is saying.

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, a concerning update from the Vatican, because we're told that Pope Francis had two (AUDIO GAP) this afternoon in the hospital.

This was caused by an accumulation of mucus, which is caused, a Vatican source said, by the pneumonia. And he had to be put back on this noninvasive ventilation through receiving oxygen through a mask. Now, the pope had been on this form of oxygen therapy this past Friday, when he had a similar crisis. But he had come off it.

And he had been stable, we were told by the Vatican. But, tonight, we are told that he's had these acute respiratory crises. It's obviously a concern because the pope has now been at the Gemelli Hospital in Rome for 18 days. He is battling pneumonia in both of his lungs. And there's a lot of worry and anxiety here in Rome in the Vatican for the pontiff's health.

Look, Brianna, I have been covering this for a number of days now, and I have to say it's been something of a roller coaster. We have had days when we have been told the pope's condition is stable or slightly improving, and then we have had days such as this one where we're told there have been respiratory crises and difficult scenarios for Francis.

Right now, it is a question of following this almost hour by hour. People are gathering tonight behind me in St. Peter's Square prayers for the pope, as they have been doing every night for the past several days. Tonight, the prayer will be led by Cardinal Robert Prevost, who is a U.S. cardinal who works in the Vatican.

He will be leading the prayers tonight for the pope. And I imagine those prayers will be intensified following this news. And, of course, we are expecting further updates from the Vatican tomorrow -- Brianna.

[13:25:11]

KEILAR: All right, Christopher Lamb, thank you for that update. We will continue to follow this.

Next, some new details about the mysterious deaths of actor Gene Hackman and his wife, as the sheriff prepares to release bodycam footage from first responders at their house. What we're learning about the videos.

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