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Trump to Sign Order Aimed at Dismantling Education Dept; Trump Admin. Unfazed by Court Losses; Sets Sights on Supreme Court; Deadline Passes for DOJ to Turn Over Deportation Flight Details. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired March 20, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Just one hour from now, President Donald Trump is set to make good on a controversial campaign promise to dismantle the Department of Education. A controversial decision. We're going to dig into what it could mean for schools and students.

Plus, town hall meltdown as lawmakers get an earful from constituents. Democrats wonder who is going to stand up to President Trump, as some look aggressively at the progressive wing of the party and their leadership.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And an epidemic of swatting, bogus emergency calls used to harass and possibly cause harm. And the targets are some of the President's, some of President Trump and Elon Musk's most public supporters.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SANCHEZ: Less than an hour from now, we are expecting to see President Donald Trump joined by Republican governors and lawmakers signing an executive order aimed at dismantling the Department of Education. The White House says this move is to shift more control of public education to the states. But the White House also says the Department's, quote, "critical functions are going to remain in place."

Let's find out exactly what that means with CNN's Jeff Zeleny, who's at the White House for us. Jeff, what more are you hearing ahead of this signing?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Boris, for all the executive orders that the President has signed during his first two months in office, and there have been many, this potentially is the most far reaching in terms of the actual agency of government. Many Republican presidential candidates and presidents have talked about this. Donald Trump has as well.

But today, in an hour or so, he's going to sign that executive order to begin dismantling the Department of Education. The question is, then what comes next for students, the metrics of learning, student loans and other things? As you said, some of the big essentials of the department, Pell Grants, student loans, civil rights measures will likely remain a function of this slimmed down department.

But the White House is explaining their motives and their moves in a new fact sheet like this. Let's take a look. They say, "Instead of maintaining the status quo that is failing American students, the Trump Administration's bold plan will return education where it belongs with individual states, which are best positioned to administer effective programs and services that benefits their own unique populations and needs."

That basically to translate is to send it back to the states. The question, of course, is how do you measure competency? How do you measure a success? Will students fail in this?

The Trump administration and supporters of this say no. They say students will benefit from this. Obviously, unions and teachers unions oppose this dramatically. They say that to lower income students and families will fall through the cracks on this. So expect legal action to come from this, particularly if Congress does not act and dismantle it. It was, of course, formed in the Carter administration back in 1979 by an act of Congress, so it would take an act of Congress to dismantle it as well.

But what the administration is already doing is essentially strangling it of its finances, of its staff. So, again, at four o'clock, the President will sign this executive order. And what comes after that will take far longer to measure. Boris.

SANCHEZ: Jeff Zeleny live for us at the White House.

As we await this signing, let's take a look at what the Department of Education actually does and does not do. One of the biggest responsibilities for DOE is the management of federal funding appropriated by Congress to K through 12 schools. Two of the largest funding programs are the Title I program, which is meant to help educate children from low-income families, and the IDEA program, which provides schools with money to help meet the needs of kids with disabilities.

Together, these programs account for about $28 billion that schools are provided every year. To be clear, federal funding typically accounts for roughly just 10 percent - 10 percent of all school funding.

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The rest comes from state and local taxes. The Department of Education also distributes about $30 billion a year to low-income college students via the Pell Grant program. Full disclosure, I got Pell Grants to help me through college. Overall, the agency manages the $1.8 trillion student loan portfolio.

With that in mind, a senior Trump administration official tells CNN that neither Title I nor IDEA nor the federal student loan programs are going to be changed based on this executive order, though an administration official did tell us that this order directs Secretary Linda McMahon to, quote, "take all necessary steps to facilitate the closure of the Department of Education and return education authority to the states."

And that is where it starts to get tricky. Politically shuttering the agency, as you just heard from Jeff Zeleny, would require an act of Congress. In Trump's first term, when he wanted to combine it with the Labor Department, lawmakers didn't buy it. It's unclear how they might respond this time, but it hasn't stopped Trump's efforts to make good on his campaign promise.

DOE recently announced a workforce cuts of nearly 50 percent. And the President has pointed to the Department of Education as a sign of federal overreach, tying it to culture war issues. That's why it's important to keep in mind what the Department of Education does not do. Let's take a look.

On its website, the agency says that it does not establish schools and colleges or develop curricula. It also does not set requirements for enrollment and graduation. They also do not determine state education standards - there it is right there - nor develop or implement testing to measure whether states are meeting their education standards.

The website does go on to say that, quote, "these are responsibilities handled by the various states and districts, as well as by public and private organizations of all kinds." So, as the Trump administration claims that DOE is in charge of culture war issues that are divisive, keep in mind, a lot of that is handled by states. Brianna?

KEILAR: Yes. And joining us now is Ryan Walters, Oklahoma's State Superintendent of Public Instruction.

Superintendent, thanks for being with us.

You are in favor of doing away with the federal Department of Education. But I do wonder if you have any concerns about potential interruptions when it comes to federal funding. Oklahoma does get a little more than the national average on that, because, as I understand, you still want and need the federal funding that goes to education in Oklahoma.

RYAN WALTERS, OKLAHOMA STATE SUPERINTENDENT OF PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: Look, it's a historic day for America. President Trump is putting our education system back on track, putting our country back on track by eliminating the federal Department of Education. Look, we don't have concerns. What we're going to see is less bureaucracy, which gives us more of an ability to meet the needs of our students, more ability to get back to the basics without federal interference, pushing left-wing indoctrination on our kids.

So for us, it's going to be more of an opportunity to increase student learning, more of an opportunity to get back to the basics and empower families.

KEILAR: A lot of the federal government's involvement when it comes to education in Oklahoma does have to do with that funding, which I think is somewhere in the realm of 14 percent. I know that you touted a record amount of federal Title I funding for low-income students, which is the biggest tranche of federal funds that goes to most states, including yours. $224 million in the '23, '24 school year. You want this federal money in block grants. Can you explain why?

WALTERS: Yes, because what we see so often with the federal government is they put all these strings and regulations on the funding. So, guess what? There's been certain times they push an agenda like transgenderism, DEI in their grant programs and their dollars. There's other times that they just require a larger bureaucratic apparatus to implement them.

So, for example, when you look at special ed funding, you look at child nutrition funding. We would prefer to have that money in block grants. So, for special ed funding, I would want money to follow the student to be individualized, to be driven by the parent and kind of a school choice mechanism like an ESA rather than the fed saying you've got to fill out all this paperwork. You have to hire more bureaucrats to fill out the paperwork for us that are constantly working on things that aren't directly involved in student learning.

So, you get the federal government out of the way. You allow states to engage in that way. As a former special education teacher myself, look, I think it would be incredibly beneficial for all students with special needs for the federal government to get out of the way there.

KEILAR: In your case, though, it is superintendents in your state who have raised issues about how you are allocating federal funds. There have also been bipartisan concerns, not just Democrats, of course, but Republicans who have accused you of ignoring budgetary directives on, you know, things from children's asthma inhalers to school security funds.

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So, I guess the question then would be, is these are concerns, you know, they're coming from inside the House, not from the federal government, why should Oklahomans trust you to have more ability to determine where these funds go with less oversight when you have concerns from Democrats and Republicans within your own state?

WALTERS: Oh, this couldn't be a better example of what we're talking about. The status quo came after me when I took on the status quo and brought education back to parents, back to educators, got the government out of control here. And so you saw the teachers union join up with some RINO Republicans and the left and so they attacked us like crazy. And our record stands on itself.

We have improved student learning. We have gotten school choice done in Oklahoma. We've driven woke indoctrination out, got back to the basics, had the largest teacher signing bonus in state history, largest tutoring programs in state history. Our two largest districts are turning around dramatically in their academic outcomes.

So again, but this is what happens and you see it with President Trump, when he takes on the status quo in education, all the arrows come flying. But this is what is necessary to improve student learning. You don't back down to the teachers unions. They have run education into the ground by partnering with D.C. politicians in the Department of Education. You've got to get teachers unions out of the way, get the federal Department of Education out of the way, put parents back in charge.

Again, we love the reforms here in Oklahoma. Our parents and grandparents are excited about it. And now you're going to see more of that at the national level.

KEILAR: I think we should be clear. Republicans were really reticent to call you out on this at first. There were a number of efforts by Democrats, but eventually Republicans did call you out for what appear to be a number of valid concerns, including that lawmakers on pertinent committees were not allowed in the board's executive meetings, which is something that is actually protected by law.

And on this issue of academic performance, I mean, I hear you citing it, but under your tenure as a top education official in Oklahoma for the last several years here, there's actually been a dip in some scores when you look at that key metric of fourth graders, which is so important, math and science, the number of fourth grade students performing at basic, proficient and advanced levels has all dipped.

So, again, these are concerns folks have about your oversight of these funds. Aren't they valid?

WALTERS: No, I mean, look, that's all simply not true. All the statistics are pointing to an Oklahoma turnaround in academic performance, number one.

Number two, listen, all of these lies that were thrown at us have been ...

KEILAR: What am I - then, what am I pointing to is - explain that then.

WALTERS: Okay, hold on. let me finish. They have shown to be false. So, what we have continued to see are improvements in our F schools, a record number of F schools coming off the F list. We continue to see improvement in fourth and eighth grade reading and math. We have also continued to see the establishment forces being wrecked and parents put in control.

And so, again, you're going to continue to see these fights that occur when you take on an establishment like this, all the arrows will fly. But here's the reality. Parents know what's best for their kids, not bureaucrats. And what you're going to continue to see are states empowering families with this new freedom given to them by the Trump administration. This will be a historic day.

You will see this in the history books when education was given back to the states, given back to parents. We stand with President Trump's America First agenda. Every Republican should stand with him. But also every state should stand with the President on this. They should want power returned to the state.

KEILAR: But Oklahomans largely have that. I mean, these are states administering a lot of things. But when you're pointing to fourth grade performance, what are you talking about?

WALTERS: Yes, look, we have seen the performance of our urban students and fourth grade reading and math go up nearly 20 ranking points in the last two years. I took on the worst ...

KEILAR: Overall you got issues.

WALTERS: ... one of the worst education systems in the country ...

KEILAR: You only got issues.

WALTERS: ... have an - and embraced these reforms. So, we have continued to see the improvement. We are continuing this ...

KEILAR: But overall, you've had issues, sir.

WALTERS: No, I haven't. No, I haven't. I've had issues taking on a radical left wing teachers union that is now out of control. And so, listen, you're going to continue to push these lies here on the network. But this is what the left wing continues to do. You continue to push (INAUDIBLE) ...

KEILAR: And Republican lawmakers, as well as superintendents of schools who do not seem ideologically ...

WALTERS: Oh, that's absolutely ...

KEILAR: ... opposed you.

WALTERS: Oh, that - now that's just silly. You think that (INAUDIBLE) 99 percent of their funds to Democrats aren't political. Oh, come on now. We've got woke administrators on this attack. You know that. I've seen the attacks on President Trump every step of the way.

This makes sense. All of your viewers right now are saying more power to states, more power to families. What's not to like about this? But again, you continue to see the left protect the status quo.

KEILAR: Well, no, because I'm talking about the really ...

WALTERS: Protect the institution.

KEILAR: ... very real - like, very real concern, Superintendent.

For instance, this whole business in the spring of not getting proper estimates to schools so that they could figure out how to plan for their federal funds that they were getting. You had them running right up into August.

WALTERS: I'm sure ...

KEILAR: Obviously, you know, in spring ... WALTERS: It wasn't right.

KEILAR: ... you need to know, can I hire new teachers with Title I funds, so - especially you're talking about impoverished students.

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Let's talk about them.

That was something that you had Republicans in your state, superintendents in your state very frustrated with because they were not able to plan it.

WALTERS: Well, look ...

KEILAR: It seems like a miscarriage of just basic duties of how you handle funds.

WALTERS: I know you're trying to railroad me here and gaslight here on CNN, but all of these things show delight what left wing administrators were lying about in our state. We have gone through all this. We have proven all of this. We have gotten these numbers out faster.

So, what you continue to see is CNN here fighting for a status quo instead of saying our education system has to get better. We should all agree on that. We're one - we have fallen way behind European countries and other countries across the world.

Change needs to happen. We've got to go back to a place in time where localities, states, families were more involved in education. That's what we've got to do. No amount of gaslighting is going to change that for the American people who stood behind President Trump ...

KEILAR: Superintendent ...

WALTERS: ... and these reforms.

KEILAR: ... I don't think anyone's looking at Oklahoma right now and is fighting for the status quo. Of course, Oklahomans, broadly or not, a report last July from the Department of Education gave you and the department that you oversee, 32 out of 52 indicators for how you handle federal money for different grant programs failing grades on that. That had to do with a number of different metrics.

I hear you dismissing it by saying that they're trying to make you jump through bureaucratic hoops. But this is about how you are meeting the needs of students who are low income, the most at-risk students in your state.

WALTERS: You - so, the same department within a weak also told us we had to allow boys in girls' sports and boys in girls' bathrooms or they would take all of our funding away from us. The Biden administration Department of Education was constantly attacking conservative reforms, attacking school choice, sending the FBI and the DOJ to investigate parents who should know that the school ... KEILAR: What about you, Superintendent, in your management here.

WALTERS: ... (INAUDIBLE) ...

KEILAR: I hear you pivoting to talk about bathrooms ...

WALTERS: Oh, no, no, absolutely ...

KEILAR: ... but your management of these funds, because what we're talking about now, Joe Biden is not president, but you're talking about getting this money in block grants. So, let's talk about you ...

WALTERS: That's right.

KEILAR: ... and how you manage those funds, because you're asking for it with fewer restrictions. That's what a block grant is. And there are serious questions ...

WALTERS: Absolutely.

KEILAR: ... about how you handle that.

WALTERS: That - there's not. Now maybe on CNN, maybe you want to continue to perpetuate that but the reality is Oklahomans ...

KEILAR: With your law - with lawmakers in your party in your state, sir.

WALTERS: ... (INAUDIBLE) and they all got beat in their reelections this last cycle, because Oklahomans knew they were lying. They knew they were bought and paid for by the teachers union. And so, what you're going to continue to see is parents are tired of it. Parents are fed up with bureaucrats. They're fed up with left wing activists masquerading as looking out for others' best interest.

What they're trying to do is stop an America First agenda that was voted on by the people of America. Every county in my state voted for President Trump. We will unapologetically enforce an America first agenda into policy. And so we are going to stand with the President. We're going to continue to fight for these initiatives. We won't allow woke mobs. We won't allow gaslighting left wing news networks to derail that. Our successors are clear and this is going to be a turning point in American history.

KEILAR: We're just talking about how you're serving the students in your state. Superintendent Ryan Walters, thanks for being with us.

WALTERS: Thank you.

KEILAR: We'll be right back.

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SANCHEZ: We have new reporting to CNN as several legal battles over President Trump's aggressive agenda play out in the judiciary, we're learning that even though the administration has seen a string of recent losses in lower courts, the strategy is to get those challenges before the Supreme Court, where administration lawyers are confident that Trump will prevail as he seeks to expand executive power.

Right now, the White House is facing more than 160 lawsuits against various Trump policies. That's according to Attorney General Pam Bondi.

Let's discuss with retired New York Supreme Court judge, Diane Kiesel.

Judge, thank you so much for being with us.

What do you think of the administration's strategy here, hoping to get these cases before a conservative-leaning Supreme Court? And do you think there are cases that have a better chance of success than others?

JUDGE DIANE KIESEL, RETIRED NEW YORK STATE SUPREME COURT: Good afternoon. I'm not so certain that I would put a lot of confidence in that strategy. Remember, since 1803, the United States Supreme Court has said in Marbury versus Madison, as every lawyer and law student knows, that it is emphatically the province of the judiciary to decide what the law is.

So, I think if the Trump administration thinks that simply because it's the Trump administration and you have conservative justices on the court, that they are going to rubber stamp every decision of this administration, I think they're going to be in for a rude awakening and a big surprise. Doesn't mean they won't win some, but they're not going to win all.

SANCHEZ: I want to get your view of the administration's opinion of the Alien Enemies Act. They see it as being applicable to these alleged Tren de Aragua gang members. This act - I mean, it's only been invoked three times in the nation's history, and it - the writing, the text, is specific to countries, citizens of foreign countries, not exactly gangs.

So, I wonder if you see a flaw there potentially in their argument and whether you think that that case will wind up siding with President Trump's view of it.

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KIESEL: Well, again, it's always very hard to predict, but I do believe in my - looking at the statute that the Trump administration is viewing it quite broadly. And whether the Supreme Court or even an appellate court, if the district courts' decision, whatever that turns out to be goes against the Trump administration, I - again, I think you've got to look at the facts of the case and try and determine whether the courts are going to take that broad a view of it. I think there's a reason why it hasn't been raised, but for these few times in 200 years, right?

SANCHEZ: Yes. I wonder also what you make of DOJ potentially invoking secret privileges to avoid divulging additional information about specifically who these folks were that were deported and when they were deported. Judge Boasberg, who's overseeing the case, pointed out yesterday that it was the first time DOJ suggested that, providing any of that material could harm National Security. What do you make of that exchange?

KIESEL: Well, I think the - excuse, if you will, of not turning that over is sort of borderline absurd because we get as judges information all of the time that could be harmful or dangerous. And there are - and granted, there could be information there that's harmful or dangerous, but there's ways to protect and ameliorate that harm. This information could be provided to the judge under seal. It could be - there are even mechanisms to provide it in an ex parte manner, if it's going to be dangerous to the interest of the United States.

So, there are methods to protect the country and its people, if indeed what the government has in its possession to support its position would be dangerous or harmful judge.

SANCHEZ: Judge Diane Kiesel, thanks so much for the analysis.

KIESEL: Thank you for having me.

SANCHEZ: Still ahead, Sen. Bernie Sanders and Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are on the road tonight holding what they call a fighting oligarchy rally. One Democrat, though, says fighting words are not enough right now. She is calling for action, an intra-party debate when we come back.

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