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London Counter-Terror Police Investigating Heathrow Fire; Global Travel Chaos As Power Outage Shuts London's Heathrow Airport; Musk To Visit Pentagon Amid Report He'll Be Briefed On China War Plan; Ocasio-Cortez Urges Democrats To Fight Harder At Rally; Trump Escalates Attacks On Judge Amid Fight Over Deportation Flights. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired March 21, 2025 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: We're just learning that London counter-terror police are taking control of the investigation into the fire that shut down one of the world's busiest airports. We've got new information, or what information do they have, as thousands of travelers are stranded.

We're standing by, Elon Musk is about to visit the Pentagon as the New York Times reports he will be briefed on a top secret war plan against China, a report that he angrily denies. We're also standing by to see if the Trump administration defies a deadline from a federal judge on the migrant deportation case. And moments ago, the President issued a new attack on the judge.

Kate and Sara are out today. I'm John Berman. Jessica Dean is here with us. This is CNN News Central.

And the breaking news, this new information that London counter-terror police are taking over the investigation into the fire that shut down Heathrow Airport and sparked global travel chaos. Now, the authorities say that so far they've seen no clear evidence of foul play, but they're keeping an open mind.

Thousands of travelers around the world are stranded at this moment as flights were diverted, some turned around mid-air. This morning, Heathrow is closed as airports roll out emergency measures. Some passengers are stuck at an airport outside Rome.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They said there's no flight, and we have yet to hear anything. We've been here for how long? Three hours? Three and a half hours, four hours with no information.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're waiting. We don't know the -- one of our parties said that we wouldn't get out until the 24th, which is a long time, you know.

(END VIDEOCLIP) BERMAN: All right, CNN Transportation Analyst, Former Inspector General of the Department of Transportation, Mary Schiavo, joins us now. First, just the impact here. When you wake up to the news, Heathrow is closed. As someone who goes to the skies so often, what was your reaction?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN TRANSPORTATION ANALYST: Oh, my reaction was, if Heathrow gets a cold, the world gets, you know, pneumonia. And we have said that when O'Hare closed due to a fire similar, a fire that was set a number of years ago, when Atlanta had to close, that's what we have done to our system. We have funneled so much traffic into the key airports that when they shut, literally, we have global chaos. And that's what we will be seeing for several days.

The gentleman who was just in the segment who said it's going to be several days before they get out, and that will be lucky if they do in even a couple days.

BERMAN: So this investigation, we understand, is now being led by London counter-terror police. The initial information they gave for why was the location of this power substation near Heathrow and the impact, which, as you just said, is enormous.

SCHIAVO: Right.

BERMAN: How concerned have authorities been over the years about things like power stations that fuel airports?

SCHIAVO: Well, they haven't been concerned enough. And again, we had this, a similar thing, it's not the same, a similar thing in O'Hare a number of years ago. But, you know, everyone realizes, and we have a lot of security aimed at airports and aircraft, but the service industries that supply those can also be under attack.

And of course, in London, they have had other transportation modes attacked as well, the tube, the buses, et cetera. And London's very good in camera coverage. They have really extensive intelligence and camera coverage all over London and at key substations, infrastructure, et cetera.

So if they have switched it to counterterrorism, my guess, this is only my opinion, would be that they do have some kind of intelligence, and maybe it's verbal intelligence or informants that suggest that perhaps it was an attack. But many similar situation in the United States, we would not have such extensive security and may not be able to respond as quickly.

But London does have great intelligence and --

BERMAN: Yes.

SCHIAVO: -- counterintelligence and video.

BERMAN: We will have to see if they have any concrete information that may come out in the hours or days ahead. How hard is it? And what are the complications now with getting things back online, not just at the airport for the -- but for the thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of travelers impacted?

SCHIAVO: Exactly. So, you know, when they get -- even when they get the infrastructure back online, they have literally millions of people on thousands of flights, perhaps tens of thousands of flights that have been disrupted. And the problem is in our system, not just in the U.S., but worldwide, we don't have what's called excess capacity.

We used to fly and, you know, we'd have the seats next to us empty, et cetera. But the airlines have been very frugal at cost cutting and seat cutting, and so now it can take days. And the problem is, even when the system is back to normal, you have this backlog of passengers, not to mention bags, that we really don't have just a lot of unused capacity that we can fill with these stranded, abandoned, dumped, you know, irate passengers.

[09:05:11]

And so that is one of the biggest problems is once it's fixed, once the surgery is over, the healing begins. And that will take many days. And the airlines, of course, don't have a lot of excess capacity --

BERMAN: Right.

SCHIAVO: -- in staff to help these people.

BERMAN: Yes. And as of now, right now, the surgery isn't even over yet. So the recovery can't begin.

Mary Schiavo, thanks so much for being with us. I appreciate it. Jessica?

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: Happening today, a mystery meeting at the Pentagon. Elon Musk invited there by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. But as to the why of it all, that's still unclear.

The New York Times reporting the tech billionaire will be briefed on top secret war plans, including China. But President Trump is denying that, saying, quote, "China will not even be mentioned or discussed". And Musk denying it as well, warning anyone who may leak information from the Pentagon, quote, "They will be found".

Now, this all comes amid growing questions about potential conflicts of interest for Musk, who does a lot of business with the U.S. government.

CNN's Natasha Bertrand is joining us now from Washington. Natasha, what more have you learned about this visit today?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jessica, we know that Elon Musk has been invited to the Pentagon by Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth. But Hegseth said in a post on X that, quote, "This is just an informal meeting about innovation, efficiencies and smarter production".

And Elon Musk, of course, has been to the Pentagon many times before. He does have many contracts with the Department of Defense. But that is precisely why many critics are concerned about the possibility that he might receive some kind of highly classified briefing about war plans with China, because he potentially has several conflicts of interest.

And receiving this kind of top secret information could put him at a competitive advantage over other contractors in this space. Not to mention, of course, his many vested interests in China, which he has talked about publicly, including, of course, Tesla, which relies on China for a lot of the production of its vehicles.

So we still don't know exactly what this meeting is going to cover. As you said, President Trump has vehemently denied that this is having anything to do with any kind of top secret briefing about China. And Sean Parnell, who is the chief Pentagon spokesperson, he also just went on Fox a short time ago and he called this fake news.

But I do think it's interesting, just the amount of very strong pushback that we are seeing to this reporting, seeming to indicate that officials do understand that it is potentially politically problematic, or at least from an optic standpoint, for Elon Musk to be at the Pentagon and potentially receiving a highly classified briefing. That is something that officials want to stay away from and are pushing back against.

So it remains to be seen what Musk is actually going to be doing there today. But we do expect to be seeing him around the halls of the Pentagon, as that much has been confirmed that he is going to be attending meetings there today, Jessica.

DEAN: All right, Natasha Bertrand with the very latest, thanks so much.

John?

BERMAN: All right, with us now is Congressman Steven Horsford, a Democrat from Nevada. Congressman, thank you so much for being with us.

To be clear, Elon Musk and the president deny that Musk will be briefed on war plans against China today. But what concerns do you have about his journey there?

REP. STEVEN HORSFORD (D), NEVADA: Well, thank you for having me on, John. Look, I just had a big rally here in my district, listening directly to the people of Nevada's 4th District. And what they're frustrated with is Elon Musk wasn't elected to anything. He is an unelected billionaire, the richest person in the world who has no accountability.

And the idea that he would have access to our national security interest at a time when there are so many concerns all around the world is outrageous. This is why Democrats have been calling on House Republicans to bring Elon Musk before Congress.

If he is such a genius, if everything that he's doing is so great, then bring him before Congress and let him testify. Let there be accountability to the people who are actually elected to ask those questions and to make sure our interests are protected.

I think President Trump is showing just how weak he is when it comes to China by allowing this type of access from an unelected billionaire like Elon Musk.

BERMAN: Again, to be clear, both the President and Musk deny that the meeting will be about China today. Musk does have a security clearance granted by the President. But you talk about Musk, and Musk did come up at this rally in Nevada overnight where you were.

Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Bernie Sanders, the congresswoman talked about Musk but she talked about Democrats and what Democrats need to do. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

[09:10:05]

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D), NEW YORK: This isn't just about Republicans. We need a Democratic Party that fights harder for us too. I want you to look at every level of office around and support brawlers who fight because those are the ones who can actually win against Republicans.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

BERMAN: What do you think about that, Congressman? What is on you, as it were?

HORSFORD: Well, look, what I do agree with is you're going to need to fight for the people every single day. I represent a very competitive district here in Nevada. I represent all the people of Nevada. In fact, I just met with five Republicans who voted for Donald Trump, who are veterans, who worked at the V.A. and who were terminated.

They came to my office in outrage and really concerned because their very well-being, their livelihoods are under attack by the Trump administration. And so, they're Republican. But as their representative, it's my job to listen to them, to be accountable to them.

And fortunately, because of the lawsuit that was brought and we have won, those five veterans who work at the V.A. here in Las Vegas are now returning to their jobs. That's because we fought for the people. This is not about party. This is about our very ability to exist as a country.

Look, while Donald Trump is focused on everything else, he's not focused on bringing down the cost of housing here in Nevada. He's not focused on making sure that people can actually afford the groceries that they need. He's firing the very employees that inspect baby food, for example.

BERMAN: You -- HORSFORD: There is chaos and cruelty, and that is why the American

people are so fed up.

BERMAN: And so you say it's not about party, but clearly there is some soul-searching going on within the Democratic Party. And it does happen from time to time with political parties. It happened in the Republican Party with the Tea Party movement.

And there are some who feel that the Tea Party movement pulled the Republican Party even further to the right and created some electability problems with them. Politico reports this morning, this is a line from them, "The Democratic base's disillusionment runs so deep that it's eerily reminiscent of Republican grassroots sentiment in the period leading up to Donald Trump's takeover of the Republican Party.

The numbers are clear. No longer satisfied with the status quo in their party, Democrats are on the verge of a Tea Party-style intra- party revolt". How would you characterize right now the comedy with a T inside the Democratic Party right now?

HORSFORD: Well, look, in the House of Representatives, our House Democratic caucus, as you saw, is united, united behind the leadership of Hakeem Jeffries and those of us who stood with the American people, unlike our colleagues on the other side of the Capitol.

And there does need to be a debate, a debate about what we're fighting for. We need to be focused on taking on these corporate interests that are making it harder for people to get ahead. Here in my home state of Nevada, families are literally being priced out by these corporate speculators, these landlords from hedge funds out of Wall Street, who are buying up property and making it more difficult for people to own a home, to afford to pay their rent.

Now we have the attacks on Social Security and Medicare. And this is what it's all about. They want to cut, on behalf of the American people, the things that are most vital for us in order to give tax breaks to the very wealthy. And that is a clear message that every Democrat should be able to communicate and to run against and to win when we're fighting for the American people.

BERMAN: Congressman Steven Horsford pointing a finger a bit over at the Senate side. We appreciate your time this morning. Thank you very much.

Jessica?

DEAN: This morning, President Trump again attacking judges with growing questions about whether the Trump administration is openly defying direct orders from a federal judge.

And why a top Tesla investor is questioning whether Elon Musk is still fit to lead that company.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:19:15]

DEAN: New this morning, President Trump escalating attacks on a federal judge overseeing the legal battle over the President's use of wartime powers to deport hundreds of alleged gang members. With Justice Department lawyers set to face the judge this morning, the President is sounding off on Truth Social yet again.

CNN's Alayna Treene is joining us now. Alayna, what is the President saying?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, he's definitely ramped up his attacks. So it's going to be really interesting today, Jessica, is that we're going to hear directly from this judge, James Boasberg. Now, we're really going to see this high profile showdown between him and Justice Department attorneys following a weeklong legal battle over whether or not the President has the right to invoke the 18th century law known as the Alien Enemies Act to deport Venezuelan migrants.

[09:20:03]

A key question as well that is expected to come up today in this hearing is whether or not the Trump administration knowingly and intentionally violated a judge's order last week as when they continue those deportation flights on Saturday evening.

Now, look, you've mentioned the President's attacks earlier this week. He actually called for this judge's impeachment, but then he ramped up those attacks overnight. And again, just moments ago, I want to read for you a little bit of what the President said.

He said, quote, "Judge James Boasberg is doing everything in his power to usurp the power of the presidency. He called the rulings so ridiculous and inept". And then moments ago, he wrote this. He said, "No district court judge or any judge can assume the duties of the president of the United States. Only crime and chaos would result".

And again, just going back to that point of him calling for Judge James Boasberg's impeachment, it actually prompted a rare rebuke from Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts earlier this week.

Now, one key thing that we've continuously heard now from the President himself, of course, but also top officials like Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller and the Justice Department as well, is they are arguing that this judge is overstepping his authority with these rulings, and particularly with his calls for the Justice Department to provide more evidence to back up their use of the Alien Enemies Act.

So I can -- you can expect to hear some of this today. But I really think taking a step back, the big picture is we're seeing Judge James Boasberg become emblematic of what we've seen now as scores of district court judges really trying to stymie the President's agenda just a couple months into his first term.

This is something we've repeatedly heard the President and top officials argue is not a proper use of these district judges' authority and their power. And we're also hearing them continue to call to bring this up to the Supreme Court level.

We've seen this with many other legal battles as well, them kind of preparing and readying this fight, hoping that it'll reach the highest court of the United States. Jessica?

DEAN: All right. Alayna Treene with the very latest from the White House, thank you so much.

John?

BERMAN: All right. With us now, Defense Attorney and Former Federal Prosecutor, Shan Wu. We have this deadline of 10:00 a.m. this morning where Judge Boasberg has basically said, you need to produce someone to give me some of the facts here. Shan, what do you make of how far that the White House and the DOJ has pushed this judge in terms of shirking the deadlines, in terms of not giving him what he wants so far?

SHAN WU, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They pushed him very far. And I think part of their strategy is they want to push him as far as possible without giving him sufficient detail to make a record where he can hold them in contempt. So they're kind of like playing both sides here.

And what Judge Boasberg wants to do is he's a very measured, very smart, very firm judge, is he wants to get the answers not just for the sake of making them answer and respond to him, but to get the records so that if they're in contempt, he has a basis to hold them. If they're complying, that's fine.

And then if they comply with the answers, then they can move to legal merits. They can't even get to the legal analysis right now.

BERMAN: Right. This isn't even on the main part of the case here, which is whether or not the use of the Alien Enemies Act is in fact legal to deport these migrants without any due process. That's over here. That's up here.

But right now they're fighting about procedure, about whether or not he's even getting the answers to the questions he's asking. And their defiance seems deliberate, Shan.

WU: It does seem deliberate. I mean, I think they would think of it as this is a way of delaying the judge's action. Maybe they can continue to implement this policy. They can keep sending people off on planes.

But you're exactly right. I mean, they're not even at the actual issue yet, nor can they be because, frankly, the judge does not even know, nor do we, who was on the plane. Were these actually American citizens, some of them? Obviously, that act can't apply to them.

Were they undocumented migrants? We don't even know the basic answers to who got sent on the plane. And the judge wants to know that before they can start.

BERMAN: So President Trump himself continues to attack the judge. Although it is notable, he's no longer at least publicly calling for his impeachment. He shifted the argument a little bit to say that a district judge shouldn't be able to take action in this way, in a way that affects larger policy.

And there may be some members of Congress, Republican members of Congress, who actually try to pass legislation to this effect, Shan. What do you make of that argument?

WU: Well, I think it's an argument that both sides have made at times where they feel that a single trial court, federal judge, should not be able to impose these nationwide injunctions. And that's what it really boils down to. But right now they can.

I mean, if Congress wants to pass a law that says you can't have a nationwide injunction by a federal judge, great. Have at it, pass the law.

[09:25:05]

But right now they can, and much of the Trump administration's rhetoric about how a single judge is stymieing the executive branch, et cetera. It's kind of like too bad. That's just the way the system works right now. Judges make decisions, you guys try and implement policies, and the court gets to review the policies, whether they're legal or not.

BERMAN: Yes. And again, where do cases of this nature start at the federal level? Which court does it go to first?

WU: It's always going to go to the particular trial court that they're bringing the case in or where the people are affected. That's always where it's going to start. And the idea of the nationwide injunction, I think it's an important one to have because there are certain kinds of issues, particularly when the executive's imposing a nationwide type policy that makes sense for the injunction to be nationwide.

But that's something that can legitimately be revisited, legitimately questioned. But simply, you know, having a lot of blustery talk about how judges have no right to do this is simply legally wrong.

BERMAN: Yes. And again, if you look at the Alien Enemies Act, if you look at the actual law here, it talks about judges, it talks about the role of judges in interpreting this law in ways that may apply directly to this case, as in, are the people being deported, are they in fact alien enemies?

WU: No, that's exactly right. And, you know, there's a lot of talk about how during World War II, President Roosevelt invoked this for detainment of U.S. citizens like Japanese Americans. Actually, his executive order did not mention the Alien Enemies Act.

It was part of the rationale for it. But that was not the reason for the executive order. They didn't rely on that because they were interning American citizens, not alien enemies.

BERMAN: Shan Wu, a lot of history here. We will see what happens in the next few minutes, whether the administration continues to push this judge.

Appreciate your time, Shan. Jessica?

DEAN: Elon Musk is spending time at the Pentagon today. But what's going on at Tesla? Who's now saying he should step aside?

And how's your bracket looking this morning? Chances are, it's not great. We're going to run the numbers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)