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Education Dept. Workers Get 30 Minutes To Pack & Clear Belongings; IRS Nears Deal To Use Tax Data To Locate Undocumented Migrants; Report: Trump Admin. Accidentally Texts Reporter War Plans. Aired 1:30-2p ET
Aired March 24, 2025 - 13:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:30:00]
LEON PANETTA, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA: This is a very serious matter. When you're planning an attack on -- on an adversary, you want to make very sure that that information is highly classified and highly protected.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Former Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, we have to leave the conversation there. Very much appreciate your insights.
PANETTA: Good to be with you.
SANCHEZ: Up next, we are live outside the Department of Education where fired workers have been given just a half an hour, 30 minutes, to pack up all their belongings, clean out their desks and get out.
Stay with CNN. We're back in just a moment.
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[13:35:07]
SANCHEZ: Thirty minutes to pack up and get out. That's the reality for some folks at the Department of Education today.
For the last few hours, we've been steadily watching a stream of workers arriving at this office in the nation's capital with a small crowd outside, supporters on hand, as the staffers head into the building to clean out their cubicles.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Since President Trump took office, more than half of the department's jobs have been gutted by layoffs or voluntary buyouts.
CNN's Sunlen Serfaty has been watching boxes moving there firsthand.
Sunlen, what are people telling you?
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, people are clearly and, of course, very emotional by the events of today. We have seen countless federal employees that once worked for the Department of Education streaming out of this building behind me with tears coming down their face.
They are mad. They are sad. They are worried about what these -- this massive gutting to the Department of Education, what it will mean for the students across the nation.
And I want to show you some video of just a short time ago where we saw a larger crowd here outside of this, one of three buildings that House the Department of Education employees in Washington, D.C.
And we saw many people carrying in boxes, carrying in their laptop computers, computer monitors that they use to work remotely for a while, carrying it into the building and then leaving to rounds of applause from the people who we're gathered in support of them, and carrying all the belongings from their offices.
And they were instructed to go in and come out, and they had 30 minutes inside to get what they needed and then leave. So clearly, a very emotional moment.
And I spoke to one woman, Sheila Chapman. She's worked for this agency for 35 years. And she spoke about not only what it means to her, but to the students across the nation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHEILA CHAPMAN, FORMER DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION EMPLOYEE: I feel devastated. You know, I've been working at the department for 35 years, come March the 26th. And I feel that I had to -- I was pushed out to retire. And it feels devastating to me, you know?
You know, coming here and packing up my bags, you know, and not knowing what I'm going to get the next paycheck. You know, it's -- you know, it's devastating.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SERFATY: And Chapman is just one of 1,300 employees from the Department of Education who were terminated, nearly 50 percent of their workforce.
And scenes like today out here this morning are playing out across the nation at many regional offices at the Department of Education, as nearly all of those 1,300 workers this week will be packed up and moved out of their offices -- Brianna, Boris?
KEILAR: All right, Sunlen, thank you.
Next, how the IRS could soon start helping ICE locate undocumented immigrants.
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[13:42:18]
KEILAR: We're watching a key legal fight that pertains to deportation underway. At this moment, the D.C. Court of Appeals is now hearing the Trump administration's argument to resume deportation flights under the Alien Enemies Act of 1798.
A federal judge temporarily halted those flights, saying the use of this centuries-old wartime law to justify the deportations of suspected gang members is, quote, "problematic and concerning."
KEILAR: At the same time, we're also learning that the Internal Revenue Service is nearing a deal with ICE to help locate undocumented immigrants through their tax data.
Joining us to talk more about these developments is John Amaya. He is the former deputy chief of staff for Immigration and Customs Enforcement under President Obama.
John, thanks for being with us.
And can we just start with the understanding of how this information has been kept separate for so many years, so that illegal immigrants would be encouraged to pay taxes, kind of take -- you know, pay their fair share while they are here.
Even if the American government thinks they should not be, with the understanding that that information would not be shared with immigration authorities.
JOHN AMAYA, FORMER ICE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, absolutely. I think, you know, the -- the IRS has a long- standing policy under statute to keep this information private because the sensitivities around it are significant.
The only time law enforcement should get access to that information under federal law is when you're involved with a criminal investigation with an order from a judge.
In this context, it's important to remind people that immigration is a civil structure. Its civil law that we're dealing with. We're not dealing with criminal law.
If criminal law was at issue for immigration purposes, then people would be afforded court-appointed counsel. That is not the case.
So there's a bit of a contradiction here in terms of using this -- this provision that the IRS allows them, which is what I'm assuming they're going to pursue, which is relegated for criminal investigations and prosecutions when we're talking about a civil immigration system.
To your point about what the government is always encouraged, yes, people have been here impermissibly, but it's the great contradiction.
We tell people do it the right way, pay your taxes even if you're undocumented, because, in some far off reality, as we did in 2013 under the Gang of Eight immigration reform bill.
That Senator Rubio, then-Senator Rubio, was a part of, one of the main requirements to be able to come forward and achieve legalized status on a pathway to residency and citizenship was proof of having paid your taxes.
SANCHEZ: So is it your view that part of this effort to obtain this IRS data is political, to undercut any future potential process of negotiation on Capitol Hill that would allow to a pathway to legality, whether citizenship or residency?
[13:45:09]
AMAYA: Well, I would welcome that. If, in fact, this is a political move.
What I think it is, it's -- highlights the operational constraints that the agency is having. They're having a very difficult time finding their targets. So they're trying to use every bit of information they possibly can.
Migrants here, impermissibly, are paying their taxes every single year. That information has been kept by the IRS. That information is of high value to ICE.
KEILAR: That money is, hey, the government wants it. It helps to defray the costs, right, of having more people here. They also pay for Social Security, which they cannot collect.
I wonder what you think the effect this -- what effect this is going to have on people who are here illegally now? And whether they are going to think it is safe to go ahead and pay their taxes, or if there's a -- this is going to really shift things into a different kind of shadow economy.
AMAYA: Yes, absolutely. I'm glad you mentioned shadow economy because I think that's what's going to happen.
Right now, people have done everything they possibly can to do things, quote, unquote, "the right way, the legal way." They pay their taxes.
And even when it comes to immigration, when they qualify for protection or when they qualify for potential benefit, whether it's being married to a U.S. citizen and then subsequently applying for residency, they have always come forward to seek that protection.
What's happening now is not only is the IRS on the verge of sharing sensitive information to ICE, but now we also see that the benefit side of the shop, USCIS, is working to help ICE Identify and arrest people.
So what's happening now is we have a government that used to have this position, this policy, we want people, where you can, to come forward as much as possible.
Now we are basically pushing people further into the shadows. And what's going to happen is we're going to create an underground economy because the workers are here, the workers are going to come.
And there are companies across America that need these workers. And what's going to happen is we're going to create an underground economy.
KEILAR: Yes, really, really interesting developments today.
And great to get your perspective, John. Thank you so much.
AMAYA: Thank you.
KEILAR: Next, a, reporter says he was added clearly accidentally, to a message chain with the vice president, the secretary of defense and other top White House officials.
Included on -- in that chain discussed in that chain, details, operational details, by the way, about war plans that actually came to fruition. We'll have new details right after this.
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[13:52:17]
KEILAR: Back now to a developing story that we're following. The editor-in-chief of "The Atlantic," Jeffrey Goldberg, says he was accidentally texted war plans.
SANCHEZ: Yes. In "The Atlantic," Goldberg writes, quote, or rather -- "The U.S. national security leaders included me in a group chat about upcoming military strikes in Yemen. I didn't think it could be real. Then the bombs started falling."
He goes on, "Screenshots from the group chat shows Vice President J.D. Vance talking with Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth."
At one point, Vance allegedly says, quote, "I just hate bailing Europe out again."
CNN chief media analyst, Brian Stelter, joins us now.
Brian, it's worth pointing out that the administration has just confirmed to CNN that the Signal message group was authentic.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: Yes. And Goldberg now knows that as well. He wondered for days if this was real or if it was a setup. Goldberg has been criticized by Trump and the Trump administration in the past.
Just last week, Trump attacked "The Atlantic" magazine at the same time that, you know, Goldberg was working on this story. So Goldberg wondered, was this real or was it a trap? Was someone trying to trick him?
And once the bombs actually fell in Yemen, he realized this was real and something worth reporting on.
Also noteworthy, he has now left that group chat, even though presumably he could have stayed in there and kept listening in for a while longer. Goldberg's article at TheAtlantic.com is well worth a read for people
who haven't read it yet. It is very revealing about the inner workings of the Trump administration.
And it does raise all sorts of questions, some of which you all have already brought up. In a normal administration, we'd be talking about disciplinary action. We're talking about legislative hearings.
We've already seen some House Democrats in the last hour call for hearings. We'll see if any Republicans agree with that.
You know, just the other day, the Defense Department and the Justice Department both announced leak investigations, pursuing people who were leaking to news organizations.
And now we know, right at the same very time, an extraordinary leak was happening by Trump's own deputies.
KEILAR: Yes, certainly.
And there's also this issue, Brian, which sort of, I think, is of journalistic interest after the fact of an administration. The records issue.
Because according to Goldberg --
STELTER: Yes, yes.
KEILAR: -- in -- in this Signal chat, it was set to -- if you use Signal, it will -- you can have it delete after, you know, whatever you set, like a time. But it had been set to deleting it one week or, in some cases, four weeks for part of it.
What do you think about that? Because now you have this fascinating conversation that should clearly be part of the record of this presidency that is going to go poof into the ether, except for we have it in "The Atlantic."
[13:54:59]
STELTER: Hey, "The Atlantic" indicates that, right, these conversations should happen on government servers, on classified servers, and in SCIFs, a secure, compartmentalized information facilities.
The idea that, instead, all these Trump deputies were hanging out, chatting on Signal instead, that is very noteworthy. And that's going to raise a lot of red flags.
Let's keep in mind here, Goldberg was seen at very classified information names of CIA officers, apparently. He was seeing the war plan, the war plans, before the plans were enacted.
So if somebody else had been added to this group chat, there were real national security concerns here. It reminds me of, you know, the kids are always taught in school about
the best and brightest running government. And then stories like this erupt and we see how human the government actually is, you know.
But texting war plans, it is something we've never quite seen before. And, you know, people are going to try to figure out, why was Goldberg added to this?
There's some theories that they were trying to add somebody else with the initials "J.G.," maybe Jamison Greer, who's the U.S. trade representative. That would have made sense.
But the point here is it was so simple, so easy, so sloppy to add a journalist from "The Atlantic" instead. And of course, Goldberg was patriotic. He didn't tell anybody. He didn't go out and share the war plans, of course.
He just listened in and tried to figure out if this was real or not. And apparently, it was all too real.
SANCHEZ: Yes, things could have certainly gone a number of different directions, even if one of these officials had lost their phone, and you know that there are folks out there closely watching Trump administration officials from adversarial governments.
Brian Stelter, thank you so much.
STELTER: Thanks.
SANCHEZ: Next, our reporter has been inside the D.C. courtroom where the biggest legal battle of Donald Trump's presidency is playing out. She'll join us live right after this.
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