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Atlantic Reporters Refute White House Claims; DOJ Refuses to Give Flight Details to Judge; Weed-Smoking Moms Try to Erase Stigma. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired March 25, 2025 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Quote, "try everything, we won't give up."

Pope Francis was eventually discharged from the hospital in Rome this past Sunday after spending 38 days with double pneumonia there.

Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Wow.

All right, so just 30 minutes from now, the director of national intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, and CIA Director John Ratcliffe are set to face the Senate Intelligence Committee for a hearing that had already been scheduled on worldwide threats. But now, undoubtedly, a top focus will be this big intelligence breach we've been reporting on after National Security Adviser Mike Waltz accidentally added a journalist to a highly sensitive group chat on an unsecured messaging app about the military strike in Yemen just before the strike was carried out.

Let's talk about the potential fallout here. Joining us right now is Maura Gillespie, former adviser to then Speaker of the House John Boehner, and also former deputy cabinet secretary under President Biden, Dan Koh.

It's good to see you guys. Dan, thank you so much for being here.

DANIEL KOH, FORMER DEPUTY AND SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Give me your take - you've been involved and in many a classified briefing in your long time serving in administration. What do you think of where things stand today, which is, we now know Donald Trump says he's apparently standing by Mike Waltz, says he's learned a lesson, and the White House now is saying that no classified information was shared. Andy McCabe says that now even ups the danger more of what could happen.

KOH: Well, as Director McCabe talked about, it should be a public record what they were talking about. So, if that is indeed true, they should just release the transcript to prove what they're saying is correct. And until then, I'm not sure that we should believe them. I think its also important to take a step back, and Maura can back me

on this. Regardless of party, there are some serious things that we take seriously as Americans in terms of treating sensitive data. When you're in the White House, in the Situation Room or elsewhere, you take off all your watches, all your electronics, and you leave your phone in a designated place because the information is so sensitive that it could compromise American lives if it were to get out. The fact that the top 18 government officials used an unsecure app to share future battle plans shows a lack of respect for the troops of the country, and that should concern everyone.

BOLDUAN: Well, and real quick, Dan, if there is a double standard here that we - we would be witnessing, what does that do? Does it matter?

KOH: I think it matters to the 2.9 million people who work at the DOD, who are putting their lives on the line every day, and who look to the secretary of defense to set the example of leadership. This is a president who always talked about taking care of troops as his number one priority. What kind of signal does it send if it seems now there's absolutely no consequences for being cavalier?

I think it's also really important to note, this was a manned mission. If it were a drone strike, it would still be very, very bad. But this was a manned mission, meaning human lives were in the field. If Jeffrey Goldberg had decided to leak that information, those lives could have been in danger.

BOLDUAN: Maura, some of the fallout you look to, right, is what's the reaction on Capitol Hill? Some Republicans have been critical of this breach. Don Bacon spoke out very clearly against what was done here, saying he would have lost his security clearance for far less than what's been reported.

I want to play for you, though, what the current speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, says about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): What you did see, though, I think, was top level officials doing their job, doing it well and executing on a - on a plan with precision. That mission was a success. No one was jeopardized because of it.

I think the administration has acknowledged it was a mistake, and they'll tighten up and make sure it doesn't happen again. I don't know what else you can say about that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: I mean, Maura, what - I'm think of, if you're still on The Hill, you're still working for a Republican speaker, what are you advising him right now?

MAURA GILLESPIE, FORMER PRESS ADVISER TO THEN-HOUSE SPEAKER JOHN BOEHNER: Unfortunately, this, to me, shows me that someone is not advising him because there's a lack of experience here across the board from the speaker's response right there to those officials who were on that Signal chat in the first place. That's inexperience. They're not prepared for the severity of this job and the seriousness of which they are tasked with. And the cavalier response and the dismissiveness of Pete Hegseth, the secretary, when he was first asked about it, is truly appalling. And I think the hypocrisy - and to Dan's point to, you know, not only do you have to hand in your phones and your watches and everything about sensitive information, what Jim Sciutto brought up earlier, my concern about Steve Witkoff, where he was located when these Signal chats were happening. He was in Russia. Again, I think it's belittling the American people's intelligence by dismissing this and acting cavalier about something so serious. And I think it's a disservice - you know, from Trump's position, the president, you know, retweeting Elon Musk and just being flippant about "The Atlantic" and no one reads it. You're basically telling your voters that they're too stupid to understand the severity of the situation, and they should be offended by that. All Americans should be offended. But I think that this is really, really frustrating from a Capitol Hill perspective, but also just an American voter perspective.

BOLDUAN: What is the role, Maura, for Congress here?

[09:35:011]

They've got the - you've got tons of committees that could have oversight over some of this since there are so many cabinet secretaries, you know, so many different agencies involved on that chat. What do you think the role of Congress should be?

GILLESPIE: Wall, I was glad to hear that Senator Thune, his first reaction was, we need to get to the bottom of this and that the Senate will find out the answers of how this happened.

I would also - you know, I believe Senator Wicker also mentioned that he was going to instruct his committee to take a look at this.

What needs to happen, and what Speaker Johnson referenced was, you know, he wanted to go ahead and tout the success of the mission. That's all fine and good. Once you address the fact that there was a huge breach of security here, addressed that, discuss the protocols that will now be put in place to ensure that something like this would never happen again, and then go into the success and tout the success. Sure, of course it was a successful mission, but there was a real risk here that didn't need to happen. And I think that needs to be addressed, first and foremost.

BOLDUAN: Maura, great to see you. Thanks so much.

Dan, thanks so much for being here. It's great to see you.

KOH: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, the Justice Department refusing to answer questions from a federal judge about the timing of deportation flights.

And a father and his two children found alive after surviving a plane crash on a remote Alaskan lake. Look at that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:40:34]

SIDNER: New this morning, we're standing by for a federal judge to respond after the Trump administration invoked state secrets laws to avoid giving him details about two flights of Venezuelan migrants that the U.S. sent to El Salvador this month. You're seeing the video there of it happening. It's a major escalation in the growing battle between the administration and the judge, James Boasberg. Top DOJ officials writing overnight, quote, "the information sought by the court is subject to the state secrets privilege because disclosure would pose reasonable danger to national security and foreign affairs." They also said that handing over details would, quote, "impede future counterterrorism operations."

Joining us now is John Sandweg, the former acting director of ICE.

Thank you so much for being here.

I just want to get your reaction to how the DOJ - all right, how the government is responding to the judge and the language that they're using, that this would be a danger to national security, potentially.

JOHN SANDWEG, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR, ICE: Well, Sara, obviously, it's hard to look at this as anything other than an escalation of this attack on the legitimacy of the court's inquiry. The government's position throughout this case has been that the court has really no right whatsoever to question the president's invocation of Alien Enemies or the processes utilized in carrying it out. So, I think, you know, obviously, in some ways, this isn't surprising to see that they take this position.

Now, in the short term, the court was asking for information related to when the flights departed. And what the court was obviously trying to do was make a determination as to whether or not the administration violated the court's order that no flights be - depart. And obviously he gave a verbal order. And it appears, based on FlightAware and other publicly available data, the flights left thereafter.

But this also raises larger questions about how the courts are going to do their job. There are still so many unanswered questions we have about who was deported, what was - where were they in the immigration process? What processes were utilized to identify them as gang members? And then, of course, what is the nature of our agreements in El Salvador? This was not a normal deportation. These people were sent to El Salvador, where they're immediately incarcerated. It's going to be very hard for the courts to do their job as this case progresses without those answers. And the administration has said, we're not going to give them to you.

SIDNER: I'm just curious, you know, in your time as the acting director of ICE, did - did you ever deport people to a country not of their origin, back to a completely different country, and not just even over the border?

SANDWEG: Yes, Sara, it is exceedingly rare. It never happens on a scale like this. We saw something like this, but - but, you know, with the first Trump administration, with remain in Mexico, where we had individuals crossing the border who were not Mexican nationals, and the Trump administration worked out a deal with Mexico where they would, you know, temporarily deport those people back ostensibly so that they could come back to the United States in the future for an asylum hearing. But never like this.

You do have cases where people are deported to third countries, but it's not - this was a whole - a - you know, a significant effort where we had an agreement with another country to incarcerate these people and intentionally move Venezuelans back to their - to - to El Salvador, right? I don't know how to convey this, but it is exceptionally rare. It can happen. The INA does technically allow ICE to deport people to a country that isn't their home country, but certainly never seen anything like this, where we load up 300 individuals, take them to a foreign country, and have this agreement in place for them to be incarcerated in that country.

SIDNER: I think you summed it up very well, exceptionally rare, never seen anything like this on this scale happen.

I do want to ask you, isn't there already a process in place that has been used for decades to deport migrants who commit crimes, instead of using these ancient, if you will, or very old, hundreds of years old laws?

SANDWEG: Sara, I think that's really an important point. A lot of - I think the administration is trying to put this as a binary effort, right? You're either with allowing transnational gang members to operate in the United States, or, you know, you're - your for the Alien Enemies Act, as if there is - can't be an in between.

The reality is, and this kind of came out yesterday in this Court of Appeals arguments, says there is plenty - there's ample authority for ICE to get these people off our streets. This has long been - transnational gangs have long been an ICE priority. We - ICE conducts operations targeting these individuals. Under existing immigration authorities, there is no problem arresting them, putting - detaining them in secure facilities and deporting them from the U.S. This idea that we either have to have Alien Enemies and these kind of streamlined processes, or we have to have gang members is really a false narrative.

[09:45:04]

And I would just say one other thing, Sara. The - the president in - you know, labeled these gang - transnational gangs foreign terrorist organizations. In doing so, he actually enhanced now the authorities that ICE has to deport these people. You can simply now, whereas previously under U.S. law you couldn't, now you can say, hey, you're a member of this gang, that makes you a - by itself deportable under, you know, the terrorism removal grounds.

So, I - this idea that this is somehow, you know, either if you're opposed to alien enemies or you want to build process, that means you're for gang members is really a false narrative. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. ICE gets out dangerous criminals. ICE gets out gang members. They've done it for decades. These authorities, you know, really are just not necessary an order to accomplish the larger mission.

SIDNER: Well, you would know, as the forming - former acting director of ICE.

John Sandweg, thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on and explaining that to all of us.

John.

BERMAN: All right, breaking news. We are standing by to hear from top intelligence officials on Capitol Hill. You're looking at live pictures of the hearing room. I promise you, this room would not be filled like this except for the bombshell story overnight. This group text chat on a messaging app discussing attack plans overseas with a reporter there. Top U.S. intelligence officials about to answer questions for the first time. You'll want to stand by for that.

Also this morning, a new report on a group of mothers who say smoking weed makes them better parents.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:50:59]

BOLDUAN: A pilot and his two children were found alive Monday after their plane crashed on an icy lake in Alaska. They waited on that ice for 12 hours before someone finally spotted the wreckage. The three of them, they were taken to the hospital, but authorities fortunately say that their injuries were not life threatening. Investigators are now working to find out what led to the crash, but the lake has been described by the Alaska Department of Fish and Game as notorious for its sudden, dangerous winds.

John.

BERMAN: All right, new this morning, marijuana as a parenting tool. One group of women has turned to the drug as a way to cope with the challenges of motherhood. They call themselves "cannamoms" and say smoking has made them better parents.

CNN's Meena Duerson has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MEENA DUERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): These are the St. Louis "cannamoms." And this is game night.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Cannamom" game night is a night out with your besties away from the kids. You're meeting new friends. You're going to be gifted some joints. You're going to play some games. And you're just going to live your best kid-free life for a couple of hours.

DUERSON (voice over): Here in Missouri, recreational cannabis has been legal since late 2022. Every few months these moms get together to consume.

DUERSON: What is special about this being like a room full of moms?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It gets me out of the house. The women here are all very accepting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You put marijuana and a mom together, those things don't' really go together.

DUERSON: Why do you think people care if it's a mom?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because moms are supposed to do everything. They're supposed to be this picture-perfect person.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're held to a certain standard.

SERAFINE ADAMS, ATTENDEE, ST. LOUIS CANNAMOMS GAME NIGHT: Mom that smoke weed should be just as acceptable as moms who drink wine. It should be, you know, something that is exactly the same.

DUERSON: And do you think that they're not treated like that?

ADAMS: Not at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Both of us used to drink. We used to go to the bar. We used to go out.

DUERSON: What's the difference?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Huge. I will never, in the world, understand how marijuana was illegal for so long and - and alcohol was legal, when alcohol is literally killed and destroyed so many people and my family's lives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Girl, hey, how've you been? I've missed you.

DUERSON (voice over): Jessica Carroll and Kimberly Kesterson (ph) started this group to help moms like themselves find and support each other.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just really have created a community, a space where women come together. They laugh.

JESSICA CARROLL, ST. LOUIS CANNAMOMS CO-FOUNDER: So, if you're any parent like me, you put your children first. So, to be able to step away and give yourself some time and do some self-care, it's hard to do.

DUERSON (voice over): A lot of these women say their kids know they smoke, and that weed actually helps them be better moms.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They see that I'm not doing it to party. I'm doing it to relax. And as far as motherhood, it helps me be able to calm down and handle the situation at hand.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I - I normally do it in the nighttime or right after I get my kids on their scheduled sleep.

DUERSON: So, for you, like, you're tucking your kids into bed, they're asleep and you're like -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's time for me to relax. I got through the day. Kind of like a replenish myself. I water myself like a plant.

DUERSON (voice over): Cannabis is still illegal at the federal level. The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention warns it may have, quote, "a wide range of health effects on the body and brain," and cautions against smoking and driving. For these moms, the group is about a lot more than getting high. St. Louis Cannamoms, one of dozens of similar Facebook groups around the country, has more than 4,000 members and provides donations to moms in need.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not just me, my kids. I don't know where we would be without them. They're - they're my family.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Being a mom's hard.

That's not nice, Benjamin.

There's so many expectations on you and we feel like we have to be perfect. We feel shame around our blow-ups and having a hard day.

All right, I'm going to step out.

And so, I think it's super important that we're able to see that there are so many other moms that go through the same struggles.

DUERSON: Do you see it now as like a tool in your parenting?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, yes. For sure. I think it definitely helps me stay patient. I actually want to sit down and do stuff with my kids instead of sit and scroll on my phone all day.

[09:55:04]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Triceratops!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Triceratops! You found him.

DUERSON: Do you get any backlash?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just, you know, you're a bad mom. You shouldn't have your kid because you smoke.

DUERSON: People said that to you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uh-huh.

You see the baby?

I feel like I'm at a space now where I feel very secure within myself and who I am and how I use cannabis.

Here. Get up here. Brush your teeth.

And if people want to judge me for that, or make an assumption that I'm a bad mom, then let them go.

Go put your dinosaurs in your room.

DUERSON: That's not something that's keeping you up at night?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, not at all. Absolutely not.

DUERSON: Are you going to say good night?

KIDS: Good night.

DUERSON (voice over): Meena Duerson, CNN, St. Louis, Missouri.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: A great report there.

SIDNER: Really good.

BERMAN: Our thanks to Meena Duerson for that.

SIDNER: Boy, this is awkward.

All right, so let's just go ahead and go to "THE SITUATION ROOM" next.

BERMAN: Speaking - speaking of good parents.

SIDNER: And marijuana.

BERMAN: There you go, JB.

SIDNER: Nice. That's nice.

BERMAN: "SITUATION ROOM" starts now.

BOLDUAN: Go! Go!

SIDNER: Get off us!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)