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Soon: Trump To Sign Order To Boost U.S. Coal Industry; CNN Visits El Salvador Prison Holding Deported Migrants; Scientists Say They Have Resurrected Extinct Dire Wolves. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired April 08, 2025 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:30:03]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Minutes from now, President Trump is expected to sign an executive order that is aimed at revitalizing the U.S. coal industry.

The White House says the move is critical to achieve American energy and A.I. dominance.

Trump has long promised to boost U.S. production of coal. It's an industry that's been in decline now for decades.

In his first term, he gutted Obama-era environmental regulations, withdrew from the Paris Climate Accord, and installed a former coal lobbyist to run the EPA. But his mission to rescue coal country fell far short.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: And if anything, the collapse of coal accelerated during his first term due to cheaper alternatives, like natural gas, solar and wind energy.

Dozens of coal-fired power plants closed. And in 2019, U.S. coal consumption sank to the weakest level since 1964.

There's a reason the U.S. and most developed countries have worked to move away from coal.

A study published in the journal "Science" found that, between 1999 and 2020, 460,000 deaths among people who got health coverage through Medicare were attributable to coal-fired plants.

And between 1999 and 2007, each year, the U.S. averaged more than 43,000 excess deaths due to coal-related particle pollution.

We want to discuss this and more with Andrew Revkin, who has covered climate change and energy for four decades, mostly for the "New York Times." He now runs his "Sustain What" blog and webcast on Substack.

Thank you so much for being with us.

What would you say is the state of Americas coal industry? Can it be revived? ANDREW REVKIN, SCIENCE & ENVIRONMENT JOURNALIST: Well, it's -- it's in

a decline. And there are so many realities behind that.

The biggest one still is related to natural gas, which Trump is trying to push production of as well. So in a sense, when you step back from this announcement, you'd have to say he's his own worst enemy if he wants to have more natural gas production and more coal production at the same time.

He is using different tools this time. The -- these national emergency declarations, which are contested in many ways, give presidents remarkable powers if they can sort of squeeze an issue into the argument for national security.

KEILAR: And China is investing heavily in new coal projects. And you hear the White House saying that coal is critical to achieving American energy and A.I. Dominance. But is it really? I mean, is that true?

REVKIN: Well, if you look at what the A.I. giants are looking for when they look for electricity, Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, et cetera., they're not looking to coal.

They're looking -- some of them have already taken out contracts for -- for reviving old nuclear power plants or for just general grid- based energy that comes increasingly from wind power and other things and gas and natural gas.

So they want -- they've made these big climate commitments. And it's not like a new president can order them to change their internal policies for what kind of energy they want to put into their giant plants.

And there still are some questions about just how big that demand from A.I. and data centers will be. I recently did a conversation with Michael Liebreich, who's one of these international energy wonks who knows a lot about this stuff.

And -- and he said there is more uncertainty there than you would think. it's not just like, suddenly, we're in a major energy crunch, or as Trump has contested, contended, a national energy emergency.

SANCHEZ: Notably, the White House, in trying to differentiate this effort, has said that this new era of coal production would focus on clean coal. I just laid out the stats there. Is clean coal a misnomer?

REVKIN: Yes, I've been writing about that issue for a very long time.

And even under Obama back in the day, there was a lot of Democratic support for the idea of capturing carbon from power plants as you're burning conventional fuel, whether it's coal or gas, and sticking that in the ground.

And there's a lot of work underway there. It can be a solution perhaps decades from now, but at this point, it's still at the beta, not even really beta. But the biggest plants in the world that are capturing carbon dioxide, the main greenhouse gas, from burning fossil fuels, are in the millions of tons a year.

And we're talking about billions of tons globally to stem the buildup of this gas in the atmosphere that's heating the climate.

So clean coal is an oxymoron, still, as it was on some science I wrote about back in 2007, 2008.

KEILAR: Andrew, is there -- you know, what else is there to this announcement today besides his appeal to people and areas that have been devastated by coal and would like to see economic rejuvenation where they live and once worked very fruitfully.

[14:35:10]

REVKIN: Sure. There are states for sure, like Wyoming. If you Google right now for the Wyoming newspapers, on coal power plants, you'll see that there is demand there. There -- there are plants that have that will be shut down.

One that already has been shut down that would like to turn back on. So Wyoming would be very happy about this.

Iowa, which is a very red state, back in 2000, Iowa was generating 85 percent of its electricity was from coal. And now it's like 22 or 23 percent. And it's dominantly wind.

And the farmers and the others who have -- who are benefiting from the wind turbines on their property are not suddenly going to be saying, hey, we need to go back to -- to coal.

SANCHEZ: Andrew Revkin, very much appreciate you sharing your expertise with us.

We want to go live now to El Salvador, where CNN's David Culver is at the notorious mega prison where the Trump administration has deported migrants from the United States.

KEILAR: CNN is the first American network on the ground since the latest round of deportations happened, and David toured the prison earlier.

Let's watch this, as you can on your CNN.com app.

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DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Second time talking about CECOT. That's the terrorism confinement center here in El Salvador, several miles that way in mountainous terrain, nestled about an hour and a half outside the capital city here in El Salvador.

And it's meant to be in that location so that it essentially stands as a fortress and kept away from the rest of the populated areas here in the greater capital area. I'm going to take you around to the side of the car. We stopped on the

side of the road because it's very challenging to be able to get cell signal for one, because they jammed the signal in the immediate surrounding area.

And to find a space like this, which is quite literally on the side of the road. But it's the first time that we can actually give you a sense of what we saw inside.

Now, why is CECOT so important? Why is it making headlines right now? This is the prison that -- the mega prison, a massive facility, it's equated to roughly seven football stadiums -- that is now holding deportees from the United States.

Among them, some 238 suspected Tren de Aragua gang members, and then another 23 or so suspected M.S.-13 gang members, all deported last month under the Trump administrations plans to strike this deal with the government of El Salvador and the president here, Nayib Bukele, to be able to House some of these deportees who they deem to be very dangerous criminals.

Hence, why they're at what is a supermax facility, one that is seemingly impenetrable, one that not only they have some 1,000 guards, but they have three rings around it.

You can't go anywhere near it with any hope of keeping cell signal, let alone they have a sprawling landscape around it that has soldiers roaming the fields and keeping an eye on all vehicles approaching.

So we obviously were on an unauthorized government visit. The first time we there were there was late last year, and that gave us our first insight as to what it's like inside this facility, coming face to face with some of these individuals who the Salvadoran government considers to be the worst of the worst.

This time, the reason we wanted to go back in was to see what sense of any changes we might be able to detect. And we we're hoping to get a bit closer to those deportees from the United States.

Candidly, they told us multiple times as we were there, you can't go near the sector. Think of an airplane like hangar that has those deportees, but rather they took us into another sector to show us what is continuing to go on.

And what's different, I will say, is an increased prison population. Let me just show you some of these images. It's going to be rough, but this is an edit we're working to put together right now.

And guys just back in the control room, so, you know, I'm hearing myself a little bit of mixed minus there.

But I want to give you a sense. I won't change it too much because there's glare as we give this look to you in the back of the truck. But you can see some of what we saw inside this one sector.

And these are prisoners who are part of what they call an extrication from the cell. This is what they label it as. And they bring them out and they line them up, and then they eventually will go in and inspect the cell. And they do this at random times so as to make sure there's no contraband.

It's tough to see how anything but through maybe guards who are also searched heavily before going into this facility could actually get inside the prison, but nonetheless, they continue with these types of searches.

So that gives you an idea of -- and we've seen some of these images before. I mean, if you -- if you've seen anything on CECOT, including our past coverage, you see some of these images of -- of just how disciplined and controlled it is.

And the word that even officials at the prison will use is harsh and they accept that. But they say that the reason these individuals are treated this way, with this level of control is because, as they see it, it matches the brutality that existed in this country for so many years.

[14:40:09]

And it's something that, as we step outside the prison walls, you have people who will tell you, we look at that prison and we see freedom. We feel as though it's restored our security.

So it's interesting to take that into your mind as you're kind of conceptualizing how this is in existence and why it's to the levels it is.

One other thing. Now, this stood out to us, was the numbers. So you saw there, there were probably groups of 10, and you had at least 10 of those. So about 100-plus per jumbo cell.

Now when we were here late last year, we we're talking about 80 or so of these inmates who were inside these cells. Now the population has increased. The entire prison has a potential to hold up to 40,000 inmates.

Now, when I was speaking with the prison director, he doesn't give an exact number. And late last year, he said, maybe between you could say 10,000 and 20,000.

Now, he says they're getting closer to that 40,000 number. And he said most of those are recent arrests from right here in El Salvador. That doesn't necessarily take into consideration the deportees.

One other thing I want to show you here. You can push in. This is something that comes up a lot. We hear about due process or lack thereof. We were told that they have the opportunity to attend virtual court hearings.

I said I would like to see that. They said, OK, well, we can see if there's any in session. There happened to be three in these rooms that are also within that sector because they never leave the sector. And they showed us some of these virtual court hearings that were

underway. And this is what they argue is part of the due process that they offer these inmates. There were also medical checks going on at the same time.

They stress -- and they're really trying to push back against the criticism that they've had internationally, that this is a stripping of all rights and that nobody has the opportunity to challenge their cases.

But one thing that was also clarified to me, because we here, this is me going into yet another of these virtual hearing rooms, but you hear it a lot, that CECOT is a place that, once you go in, you never go out.

And I asked the prison director about that because last time I was here, that was something that he acknowledged. That's how they see it. They see it almost as a life sentence. Even though sentences are only up to 60 years here in El Salvador.

He says, what we were seeing in those virtual hearings were additional crimes that these individuals were being tried for. And so that's where they stack the sentences.

And a couple of the people we met had 400-plus-year, 600-plus-year sentences. And so that's why he says it's a place that, for those individuals, is one that you never leave once you enter.

But he left it a bit open. And I thought that was interesting because as you think about these deportees, and obviously you have people like Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who the U.S. deported under the Trump administration here, there's been a push to try to have him returned because the administration even admitted it was an administrative error.

But he for now is staying here. He was in the CECOT facility that we were just visiting. But for now, he won't be returned.

And so it brings open the question of, if they're no longer holding strong to, once you enter, you never leave, perhaps then there's some room that potentially some of these individuals will eventually leave CECOT.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: That was David Culver just outside that mega prison in El Salvador, giving CNN an exclusive look of the interior of this controversial place that the Trump administration is relying on as they enforce this immigration crackdown.

Sometimes with unforeseen consequences, including the story of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who is being held there right now.

He's that Maryland man that the Trump administration acknowledged they made an administrative error in deporting him to El Salvador. Now there's this legal fight about bringing him back to the United States. That prison is also pertinent, in part, because of the Supreme Court

decision late last night that allowed the Trump administration to continue using the Alien Enemies Act as part of its effort to ramp up speedy deportations.

It's obviously a controversial issue, and that is a special look at what's happening.

KEILAR: Yes, and chief justice, John Roberts, pausing that deadline that was coming due last night at midnight for Garcia to be returned, since he was taken there mistakenly.

[14:44:36]

We will be right back with more. Stay with CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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SANCHEZ: Oh. That's a sound that has not been heard in more than 12,000 years. Those Dire Wolf pups were brought back from extinction using ancient DNA cloning and gene editing technology.

Colossal Biosciences, a Texas-based biotech company, says these pups are essentially a hybrid species created using altered genes of a Gray Wolf.

Romulus and Remus were born last October. They are marking a major milestone in de-extinction efforts. They also have a little sister, Khaleesi, that was born in January.

KEILAR: Yes, that reference isn't lost on us, right, "Game of Thrones" people. The name wasn't enough to give it away. Yes, these are the same fearsome canines that were featured in that HBO series, "Game of Thrones."

Let's get right to Beth Shapiro, chief science officer at Colossal Laboratories and Biosciences.

So, Beth, there seems to be some debate in our NEWSROOM on if the pups are cuddly companions or vicious killers. Or perhaps this is something they age out of or into.

[14:50:07]

But -- but you can tell us. But also just tell us, why bring back Dire Wolves?

BETH SHAPIRO, CHIEF SCIENCE OFFICER, COLOSSAL LABORATORIES & BIOSCIENCES: Well, I would say that right now they're pretty much cuddly companions, especially Khaleesi. She's only two months old and she is adorable. She's just about reached the age where we're going to introduce her to her brothers.

Her brothers are six months old. They're about 80 pounds, so they're larger than the largest Gray Wolves. And they have this white coat, which is a color that we learned by studying the genomes of extinct Dire Wolves.

And -- and so we're super excited to have the first de-extinct species and to have developed all sorts of technologies that are going to be able to help us to protect and preserve living species, which to me is really the ultimate goal of these technologies.

SANCHEZ: Why Dire Wolves specifically and not, say, something else, a Wooly Mammoth, Velociraptor, Tyrannosaurus Rex?

(LAUGHTER)

SHAPIRO: I love how you went right to dinosaurs.

SANCHEZ: You know where I'm going.

SHAPIRO: Well, we have -- we've announced at Colossal three species that we are working to bring back from extinction. That is the Mammoth, the Dodo, and the Thylacine, which is also known as the Tasmanian Tiger.

And we didn't -- we didn't really tell people that we were also working on the Dire Wolf in the background. And so it's been about -- it's been 18 months.

It took between deciding that we were going to do this and these puppies first being born, which is pretty remarkable given how sophisticated and complicated the science is.

And one of the reasons to focus on the Dire Wolves is because they are so similar in many ways to their closest living relative. That's the Gray Wolf. They're just larger, more muscular, and they have this different coat color and texture and length and phenotype.

So our goal with de-extinction is not to create something that's genetically identical to something that used to be alive, but to recreate functional copies of these animals.

Ultimately, the goal with all of these projects is to restore animals to ecosystems that can help these ecosystems be more robust and resilient.

And the Dire Wolf is a great example of this first try, because we know so much about Gray Wolves. Everybody has a favorite Gray Wolf. You probably see mine wandering behind me. They were really excited by the cries of Romulus and Remus that you played at the opening here, so hopefully they've calmed down now.

But we know a lot about Gray Wolf genomics because domestic dogs are a Gray Wolf, and we can make informed decisions about how we're going to edit their DNA in a safe way. That still lets us bring back these key traits that defined a Dire Wolf. KEILAR: So, Beth, how do you, when undertaking a project like this, be

it a Dire Wolf or some of these other efforts for other species, make sure that there aren't any sort of unintended repercussions?

Because we have all, you know, read or seen "Jurassic Park." We know about unintended repercussions. How do you avoid that?

SHAPIRO: For the Dire Wolves, these animals are living on a 2,000 acre protected reserve. They are -- are watched over day and night by a team of wolf professionals and animal care professionals.

So we're certain that these Dire Wolves are not going to escape and harm anyone the way an escaped Velociraptor might.

When we're making the edits -- and we're not making a Velociraptor, I'll just come right out and say, we're not working on dinosaurs so that we don't have to talk about it.

(LAUGHTER)

SHAPIRO: When we're making them, we're really targeting specific phenotypes. So we're targeting, in this case, the size. We made DNA changes that will make them larger than Gray Wolves, more muscular than Gray Wolves. And we targeted this coat phenotype.

So we made several changes to their DNA that when -- so this was one of the most exciting things for me. When a wolf is born, normally, they're dark colored.

But when our wolves were born, they were white, as you saw. And this meant that the edits that we had made had successfully modified the way that animal looked.

So we're doing everything that we can, from both a genetic perspective and an animal care perspective, to make sure that these animals live happily and healthily.

And also that they're not going to escape and potentially compete with Gray Wolves, which is obviously not what we want.

SANCHEZ: But some of what you were describing before gave me the impression that you might consider releasing them into the wild. Is that accurate or no?

SHAPIRO: No. The plan with these Dire Wolves is for them to remain on this 2,000-acre ecological reserve. There are sections of this reserve that are more wild than other sections.

So right now, they've spend most of their time in the area where they can be watched over by people. But as they get older, especially the boys, Romulus and Remus, we're releasing them more into these -- into these semi-wild areas where we can start to learn about how they interact with this habitat.

[14:55:02] And long term, we have indigenous partners who are interested in having small packs on indigenous land, but this will take many conversations and many years about how to make sure that they would be protected.

And we're hopeful that this research is actually bringing more attention to the plight of Gray Wolves in general. Gray Wolves are an endangered species.

And we need to think about how important carnivores are in their ecosystem, and by drawing so much attention to the Red Wolves and the Dire Wolves -- and we should talk about the Red Wolves -- we're hopeful that people are going to start to think about the ways that they can interact with and work with Gray Wolves to give them a healthy and happy life.

SANCHEZ: They are so adorable.

KEILAR: They are.

SANCHEZ: Yes. And then they grow up and get a little bit scarier.

KEILAR: But still beautiful.

SANCHEZ: Still beautiful.

(LAUGHTER)

SANCHEZ: Beth Shapiro, thank you so much. Appreciate you sharing your time with us.

SHAPIRO: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

Markets are up after days of spiraling following President Trump's tariff announcement. What's causing this boost? Will it last? We'll break it down in just moments.

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