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DOJ Appeals After Judge Warns Of Contempt Charges Over Deportations; Trump Lashes Out At Powell: "Termination Cannot Come Fast Enough"; Gaza Civil Defense: Israeli Strikes Hit Displaced Palestinians' Tents. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired April 17, 2025 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[07:30:25]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Overnight, the Justice Department appealed after a federal judge threatened to hold the administration in criminal contempt for defying his orders. The judge said the government showed "a willful disregard for his order to turn around three planes deporting alleged Venezuelan gang members."

With us this morning CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig. And I know you spent a lot of time with what Judge Boasberg wrote, Elie, and you really dig into the timeline here and, kind of, the case that Boasberg lays out.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: Yeah, John. So the timeline is so key to determining that word you just said, "willfulness." That was the big question. Did DOJ defy the court on purpose or was it a big accident?

When you read this detailed timeline set out in the opinion there's little question, they did it on purpose. They acted willfully. This plan was in effect for days and weeks before the judge could even consider it. And it's fine if DOJ wants to preplan a deportation but not if they want to do it in a way that allows them to ignore the judge.

And just one detail that really jumped out at me, John. On the weekend this all went down -- the weekend the judge held the hearing where he said wait, stop -- turn those planes around, DOJ told the judge we don't need a hearing this weekend, Judge. It's not time for that yet. Let's do it Monday. If the judge had waited until Monday, it would have already been too late.

And then, John, when the judge gave his ruling to turn those planes around that was actually before the planes were unloaded. So the judge says do not deport these people and even though the judge had said that DOJ unloads those planes and hands those people over to El Salvador.

So when you read this it's really hard to argue with the conclusion that DOJ acted intentionally here. KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: And one of the things that the judge writes in this 46-page ruling is, "The court does not reach such conclusion lightly or hastily; indeed, it has given defendants ample opportunity to rectify or explain their actions. None of their responses has been satisfactory."

The Trump administration -- I say that by setting up now we know that the Trump administration is appealing, but what are they likely to argue in its defense because you've got the judge saying it's not like I haven't asked for this and asked for this again, and asked for this again?

HONIG: Yeah. This judge has been incredibly patient -- way more than most judges I ever dealt with -- in asking DOJ time and time again to give it the relevant information to decide whether this was intentional or not.

Now, DOJ has said they will appeal. They will go up the Circuit Court of Appeals. It's not clear, by the way, that the Court of Appeals can even take this case at this point because the judge has not yet actually found contempt. He just said my next step, if you don't convince me otherwise, is I will find contempt.

I think if it gets to the point where there's an appeal, I think DOJ is going to argue that the judge got it wrong. That this was inadvertent, that this was unintentional, and that he should not find them in contempt. I don't know, frankly, how they're going to make that argument when you look at the actual facts and timeline because it's really pretty damning.

BERMAN: Yeah. We're going to have to see how this winds its way up through the courts now at this point.

Elie, just before we came to air the President of the United States went directly after Fed chair Jerome Powell, saying his termination cannot come fast enough.

My question to you -- our question to you this morning is a simple legal one although I'm not sure there's a simple legal answer.

BOLDUAN: Is there ever?

BERMAN: Can the president terminate the Fed chair?

HONIG: Well, the simple legal answer, John, is we don't know for sure.

If you look at the state of law as it exists at this moment here as we sit in April 2025, the answer is no, and that's because of a U.S. Supreme Court case that goes back to 1935 called Humphrey's Executor, which says in these multi-member agencies -- these independent agencies like the FTC, the SEC, and here, the Fed -- the president can only remove those members for cause, meaning if the person has done a horrible job, has been absent, that kind of thing. And so that would protect the Fed chair.

However, there has been a growing movement by this administration and by prior administrations to challenge that law and to say that essentially no, it's up to the president if he wants to fire these people. And there's no limitations on why he could fire them.

And John, really important to note if the president does fire Chairman Powell there will be a lawsuit. Obviously, the stakes will be very high.

But that may not be the case that decides this because there is another case involving the firing of other board members of other boards of the FTC and the National Merit Protection board that's already up at the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has not decided yet whether they'll take it. But that one is way ahead of this potential case in terms of the procedure here.

[07:35:07]

But the stakes here are huge. I think it's only a matter of time before one of these cases reaches the Supreme Court, and that will tell us exactly how much power the president has to fire the Fed chair and other independent appointees within the executive branch.

BOLDUAN: I mean, I feel like we have to use both of those words against you when it comes to saying that it hasn't been legally tested. I'm going to say none of their responses has been satisfactory. That is not a satisfactory response, Elie. We need it to be cut and dry. Yes or no.

HONIG: I wish I could give you a yes or no, Kate. It would be irresponsible for me. What I will say is right now the answer is no, he can't fire him, but that could change. How about that?

BERMAN: Yeah. It only had one complication is there are people who think that even if the Supreme Court steps in and rules on the FTC thing --

BOLDUAN: Oh, was this the thing you were talking about -- the agent -- definition of an agent?

BERMAN: Well, they may try to have a carveout for the Fed. I mean, it's even uncertain on top of its uncertainty here, Elie, but it really makes it interesting when the president goes after the Fed chair so publicly.

Elie Honig -- counselor, thank you very much --

BOLDUAN: Thanks, Elie.

BERMAN: -- for explaining so much.

HONIG: Thanks, guys.

BERMAN: All right, that was the legal perspective on this.

BOLDUAN: You go now.

BERMAN: As for the financial perspective what would happen if the president fired the Fed chair or pushed him out? How would the markets react? How would economies react?

I had a chance to ask this to our friend Richard Quest last night and this is how he answered.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR AT LARGE: Oh, they would collapse. I mean -- I mean, he can't get rid of him as best we know. But if Jerome Powell was in some shape or form to be rubbish, nonsense, and generally ridiculed by the administration much more to the point where other members of the governing council or the board of governors would be disastrous for this country and for the economy. Absolutely disastrous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, with us now Pete Seat, a former White House spokesperson under President George W. Bush; and Democratic strategist and executive vice president of the Third Way, Matt Bennett.

Pete, let me just start with you here. Pretty stark words from Richard Quest there on the consequences of actually firing Jerome Powell.

What do you think the consequences are of threatening to -- what President Trump is doing right now? He's already got a trade war. Does he really need a Fed war?

PETE SEAT, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SPOKESPERSON UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH, VICE PRESIDENT, BOSE PUBLIC AFFAIRS GROUP (via Webex by Cisco): Well, President Trump has never been a fan of Jerome Powell and just a few days ago --

BERMAN: Except that he appointed him. Except that he appointed him.

SEAT: -- the secretary --

BERMAN: I will say that. But go ahead.

SEAT: Well, there are people who lose favor with Donald Trump even though he appoints them.

But the Secretary of Treasury, just a few days ago, started floating the conversation about who might replace Powell when his term expires in about a year or so.

I would just say about this thing, John, the Fed handles monetary policy. They don't handle trade and foreign policy. This is a much larger conversation than just interest rates and what the Fed manages.

And the White House has a lot to juggle and a lot to talk about. Negotiations that are taking place with foreign leaders, including later today with the prime minister of Italy.

And let's talk about job announcements that are taking place. These policies are bearing fruit right now despite what the Fed chairman says. BERMAN: Well, the Fed chair said it will increase prices -- that

consumers will bear the cost of that -- and also said it will slow growth.

Matt, from a political perspective do you think it's smart to pick a fight -- this kind of fight with the Fed chair?

MATT BENNETT, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT AND CO- FOUNDER, THIRD WAY (via Webex by Cisco): No. I think it's insane.

Look, Donald Trump took an economy that was doing pretty well. There were problems. Inflation was too high. But it -- I mean, the economists said we were the envy of the world six months ago and he has already driven it into a ditch. The markets are plummeting, prices are about to rise in incredible ways because of these tariffs, and people's 401ks are really hurting.

Now the same guy that has done that to our economy on purpose for no reason wants to take over monetary policy. As we just heard, I think the markets will go bananas if that happens. I would rather pick somebody out of a crowd at a Washington Wizards game to run monetary policy than hand it over to Donald Trump at this moment.

BERMAN: There are no more Washington Wizards games. They've been eliminated long ago. But I see your point right there.

I want to play some sound from Secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who was talking about autism -- and he's talked about autism for some time. But there are people who take exceptions, or I think maybe were hurt by the way he talked about autism just yesterday -- listen.

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ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., SECRETARY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: This is a preventable disease. We know it's an environmental exposure. Autism destroys families. More importantly, it destroys our greatest resource, which are our children.

[07:40:00]

And these are kids who will never pay taxes. They'll never hold a job. They'll never play baseball. They'll never write a poem. They'll never go out on a date. Many of them will never use a toilet unassisted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Now, there's no question that autism has a huge impact on people and families around the country. In dispute is whether or not it's preventable.

But Matt, I think what some people -- what some people were hurt by is the idea that people who do have autism can't live productive lives. That hit, I know, some people the wrong way.

What do you think about that? BENNETT: Yeah, it was absolutely despicable to hear that from the secretary of Health and Human Services -- from anybody.

I mean, look, Elon Musk, the richest guy in the world, currently basically running the American government, has said that he has autism spectrum disorder.

Like, you -- there is an enormous spectrum of people. Some are deeply disabled; some are very abled and contributing to society in all kinds of ways. And nobody in any position of authority should talk like that.

Moreover, the thing that he said at the beginning of that quote was also incredibly irresponsible. There is no evidence that it is caused by external factors like that. And the thing that he is doing by turning his agency into an advocate for this fringe idea about autism and questioning vaccines is unbelievably dangerous, and people in the United States are already dying as a direct result of that.

BERMAN: Pete, what do you think?

SEAT: I think RFK Jr. needs to find a new soapbox. He's on the right track when it comes to tackling chronic disease and getting this country healthier, but every time he wades into the autism debate, he exposes the fact that he knows absolutely nothing about that topic.

BERMAN: I want to shift gears to something that popped up overnight -- Nate Silver with his Silver Bulletin. He did something sort of fun where he did a mock draft of potential Democratic candidates for president for 2028. And he and Galen Druke, who he did this draft with -- they actually agreed that the number one pick right now would be Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

And Druke wrote -- or said -- he said, "Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has broad appeal across the Democratic Party. There are a lot of people who could potentially get on board with her. But I think equally important is the fact that she has very fervent support. I think a lot of people are going to run in 2028 and it's going to be a contest for attention and getting those sorts of people who might be in your boat to turn around and stay with you through thick and thin. And I think that's Ocasio-Cortez."

Pete, the crowds are out there right now with Ocasio-Cortez and Bernie Sanders out touring. She is delivering a message on the economy.

Do you think she could be someone who rises to the top?

SEAT: She could be for the reason that she resonates with the base. She makes people on the Democratic side of the aisle feel like they are being listened to and being heard.

She conducted a little experiment on social media right after the election where she asked her followers who were split-ticket voters -- Trump-AOC voters -- why did you do that? We are on opposite sides of the ideological spectrum. We don't agree on policy. And it came down to the fact that they believed Donald Trump and AOC listened. They heard them --

BERMAN: Wow.

SEAT: -- and they understood the plight of regular everyday Americans. And that's powerful.

BERMAN: So Matt, very quickly, I've got to let you weigh in here because you are the Democrat on this panel. But does AOC -- how does she sort of align with the Third Way?

BENNETT: Well, not very well. But I think Pete's right. I think she's an incredibly skilled communicator and politician and if she runs, she will be formidable.

But number one draft picks tend not to do very well in presidential campaigns. If you think back on people like Jeb Bush was probably the number one draft pick, and Maria Cuomo before Bill Clinton won in 1992.

So I don't know if she's going to run, and if she does run winning is very hard no matter who you are.

BERMAN: This is a good setup for NFL draft, less than two weeks away.

Matt Bennett, Pete Seat, great seeing both of you. Thank you very much -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right, let's turn to this. Gaza's civil defense says Israel launched military strikes on displacement camps in southern and northern Gaza overnight. Video showing flames engulfing the area as emergency workers responded. Gaza officials say at least 15 people were killed, including women and children.

Now, CNN cannot independently verify the claims. The Israeli government does not allow foreign journalists to independently enter Gaza. Israel has repeatedly sad it is striking at Hamas targets in Gaza.

Let's get over to CNN's Nada Bashir. She's tracking this one for us. And Nada, what are you learning?

NADA BASHIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well look, Kate, this is a scene we have seen before in the Gaza Strip -- displacement camps sheltering Palestinian families targeted following a round of overnight strikes.

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And as you mentioned, Gaza's civil defense says it was not just one displacement camp targeted overnight but a number of them in both northern and southern Gaza.

Among them, the Al-Mawasi coastal area. This is an area that has previously been designated as a safe zone. It's an area that has been designated by the Israel military as an evacuation point for Palestinian civilians, and it an area that is known to be housing thousands of Palestinian families -- civilians sheltering in these temporary overcrowded camps. And this is one of the areas that was hit overnight.

We've seen the devastating videos of these tents engulfed in flames as emergency workers try to rescue people from the blaze. According to Gaza's civil defense at least 15 bodies were recovered. They say the majority of them women and children.

Take a listen to this account from one survivor who says his sister was killed in the blaze along with her children.

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YOUSSEF ABU-ALROUS, DISPLACED PALESTINIAN WHO LOST RELATIVES IN FIRE (through translator): A 12-year-old disabled child was charred in his wheelchair. We carried him. Even his bones had melted as we were pulling him out. This was the child's wheelchair.

There is no safe place left. Where are we supposed to go? People ran into the sea last night trying to save themselves, throwing themselves into the water. Where are people supposed to go?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASHIR: Now, of course, the Israeli military and Israeli government have said that they are targeting Hamas militants and Hamas infrastructure in the Gaza Strip. But we are continuing to see strikes just like this one hitting areas known to be housing civilians, including camps and including former schools that have been housing those sheltering and displaced.

And, of course, it's important to underscore that the majority of Gaza's population have now been displaced. According to the U.N. estimates half a million Palestinian civilians have been uprooted once again since the ceasefire broke down just a month ago. So clearly, the devastation that these civilians are facing is only deepening.

BOLDUAN: Yes. Nada, thank you so much for bringing us that. Thank you for your reporting -- John.

BERMAN: All right. This morning officials racing to restore power after a sweeping blackout left more than a million people in the dark without running water all just ahead of Easter weekend.

All right, this is a big one. Scientists claim they've found evidence -- the strongest evidence yet of existing alien life. That sounds like kind of a big deal, right?

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[07:52:12]

BERMAN: This morning officials in Puerto Rico are trying to restore power after a sweeping blackout. Most of the island, home to 1 1/2 million people, is in the dark ahead of Easter weekend. Thousands without running water. It could take a few days to get power fully restored. No word yet on what caused this. So, scientists have captured the first confirmed footage of the elusive colossal squid in its natural environment. That video shows a juvenile squid -- juvenile squid -- a young squid swimming in a depth of nearly 2,000 feet in the South Atlantic Ocean. Researchers say a colossal squid can grow up to 23 feet long and weigh as much as half a ton. That's a big squid.

So the squid thing is big, but this is even bigger -- so big that if true you might ask does anything, like, really matter? Scientists say they've found the strongest signs yet of potential for life beyond our solar system. Researchers at the University of Cambridge used the Webb telescope. They say they've detected the chemical fingerprints of two gases on a planet that are produced on Earth by some living organisms like algae. They stressed that they're not announcing they discovered anything actually living on that planet, but they believe it could be signs of some sort of biological process happening out there.

This is only like 120 light years away. Algae growing there. I think there's something probably even much more developed than that, Kate. It's all happening.

BOLDUAN: It wasn't even algae. It was the gases that may lead -- it was gas plus gas could equal algae could equal life.

BERMAN: It's coming. It is coming. We will be visited by algae soon, mark my words.

BOLDUAN: I'm excited.

BERMAN: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Apparently, it's great for the skin.

OK, here we go. A new report in -- coming in from CNN's KFILE. President Trump's controversial pick to be D.C.'s top prosecutor failed to report nearly 200 media appearances on mandated disclosure forms to Congress. Some of those appearances that he left out included appearances on far-right outlets and Russian state media.

CNN's Annie Grayer has this reporting and she's joining us now. Annie, this is great reporting. Thanks for being here.

Explain what you have learned and why this is controversial.

ANNIE GRAYER, CNN REPORTER: So every nominee is required to submit essentially a paper trail to the Senate Judiciary Committee of every TV hit, podcast interview, and media appearance that they've ever done, and Martin's has huge holes in it. By our CNN tally we've found that he left out over 240 media appearances just in the years 2023 and 2024 alone.

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Now, since that first filing in March, Martin has tried to amend his paperwork, but it still has fallen short. So, for example, he initially didn't have a single appearance listed for 2023. He's added 19 appearances to that list, but we have accounts of 124 appearances for that year. So you can see where he has fallen short.

And beyond just a lot being missing here the links that he has provided don't appear to be working. When you click on them it often says "unavailable," as you can see on your screen below.

Now, this is -- it's not just all of this that's unavailable and missing, we also need to get into the content here. So what he has left out is a number of appearances on right-wing media shows, on Russian state media, and comments where he has talked about prosecuting former President Joe Biden and his family or prosecuting anyone who has gone after President Trump.

And when I talked to former Senate judiciary staffers about this who are familiar with this kind of paperwork, they say that this is abnormal and a huge concern, particularly -- and the one that I spoke to for this story, I should note, was a Democrat.

But this just doesn't appear to be how the normal process for filling out this paperwork goes. And Martin has had a lot of attention around him for some of his controversial comments.

Democrats are doing everything that they can to delay this process. Republicans are trying to move forward. But this will all come to a head by May 20 when Martin's status as acting U.S. attorney will expire.

And there are some Republicans, even, who have concerns about Martin's nomination. Even Sen. John Cornyn, to me, called him "controversial."

So this will all be in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee when they return at the end of this month.

BOLDUAN: That will be very interesting to see how this adds to that examination of his record and the holes that seem to be part of it.

Thank you, Annie, for that reporting -- John.

BERMAN: All right. Shortly a resentencing hearing will be held for Erik and Lyle Menendez in their bid to get out of prison. They were sentenced to life without parole for the 1989 murders of their parents.

The former Los Angeles County district attorney recommended they be resentenced, saying they've paid their debt to society, but the new D.A. is now seeking to put today's hearing on hold.

Let's bring in Joey Jackson, CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney. Counselor, thank you so much for being with us.

What do we expect to happen today? How will this play out?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yeah, John. Good morning to you.

And so what happens is that in a resentencing the judge is considering three primary factors.

The first factor is have you been rehabilitated. What is your body of work in jail? How have you uplifted others? What have you done with respect to your attitude, comportment? What does your disciplinary history look like?

The second issue relates to your risk at creating or otherwise engaging in violence when you get out of jail.

And the third factor, John, relates to the interest of justice. Considering everything as a whole, is it in the interest of justice that you get resentenced.

Now, despite what's happening in other facets about democratic society there's actually evidence that'll be proffered in this proceeding which will otherwise indicate whether they have been rehabilitated, whether they will not reoffend, and whether it is in the interest of justice or not.

And so I think we'll hear live testimony with respect to those inquiries.

BERMAN: Now, we say this hearing is going to happen, but the L.A. County D.A. has filed a motion to delay this hearing scheduled to begin in a few hours. And you have this weird complication where the former D.A. was the one who wanted this. The current D.A. doesn't want it.

How will that play out?

JACKSON: So I think the D.A.'s ask of the judge is appropriate. I'm not sure that it'll be granted but here is why. Their basis for the delay is that they want the California Risk Assessment. Why do they want that? Well, remember that the clemency petition -- there's also another path to their actual release -- two other paths.

One is a clemency petition submitted to the governor. In that petition you have a board that conducts this (audio gap). They evaluate, right, both of these brothers to determine, again, what they have done in prison. What is their suitability or risk of reoffending? What is the basis of the actual offense and is it something you could recover from. And that's a critical piece of evidence.

Now, this is the most updated one. I think what the judge could do is say hey, let's proceed. I will get that. I'll keep the record open, and I won't make the decision until and unless I evaluate that.

So it's an important ask. It's important to have that information but it doesn't necessarily mean the judge will postpone it. There are other alternatives the judge could consider in terms of making a decision that has merit and that considers all of the factors.

BERMAN: There's been a ton of public attention on this, including all kinds of Netflix specials, and podcasts, and the like.

How does that factor in, and if you were the defense, how might you use that?

JACKSON: So I think it factors in in a big way. Obviously, it's gotten them to this point, right -- the point where you're before --

BERMAN: Yeah.

JACKSON: -- a judge and the judge is evaluating what's happening. But at the end of the day, again, it is about the evidence.

Now, the public attention, right?

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