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Trump Lashes Out at Fed Chair; Revoke of Harvard's Tax Exempt Status; Lee Gelernt is Interviewed about DOJ Appeals Deportations; Third Pentagon Appointee Placed on Leave; Trump Memo Details Health Cuts. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired April 17, 2025 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

LI XINYAO, BUSINESS OWNER: People will worry about that.

MARC STEWART, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): But it's a two-way street. American consumers rely on places like this for the things they want at the price they want to pay, including something that has become an unmistakable symbol.

STEWART: Look what we found in the middle of this market, Donald Trump's trademark hat, made in China.

STEWART (voice over): Last year vendors here sold around $11 billion worth of products to the United States. But even before Trump 2.0, China saw this trade war coming. To get ahead of it, exporters are already diversifying. Right now, half of Nie Ziqin's business is with the U.S. She tells me she's not worried.

NIE ZIQIN, WHOLESALE VENDOR (voice over): My next step is to transfer my U.S. sales roots to the EU. Last year we also began designing products we can sell to the Chinese domestic market.

STEWART (voice over): American consumers have long been hooked on cheap Chinese products. Giving them up might not be easy.

Marc Stewart, CNN, in Yiwu, eastern China.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, breaking this morning, from trade war to fed war. A short time ago, the president of the United States went after the Fed chair, Jerome Powell, saying, quote, "his termination cannot come fast enough." This after the Fed chair said the president's tariffs would likely lead to higher prices and slower growth.

A move to revoke Harvard's tax exempt status. This morning, new reporting on how Harvard is fighting back.

And after decades behind bars for killing their parents, could the Menendez brothers go free? A critical hearing is about to begin.

All that, plus giant squids. Sara is out today. I'm John Berman, with Kate Bolduan. This is CNN

NEWS CENTRAL.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Ignore Berman. Focus here.

New this morning, we are 30 minutes from the opening bell on Wall Street after President Trump woke up clearly ready to fight, picking a new fight and lashing out at the Federal Reserve chairman, Jerome Powell. Trump saying on social media, Powell's, quote, "termination cannot come fast enough."

Looking at futures right now. A little mixed look at that.

The president's outburst comes a day after Jerome Powell issued a stark warning about Trump's tariffs and their impacts. Warning essentially that, well, you need to get ready for prices to go up, unemployment to go up and growth to slow. Saying that part of the burden of tariffs is going to be, quote, paid by the public.

In a few hours, President Trump is expected to meet with the Italian prime minister to talk about a trade deal, to talk about tariffs. Also saying on social media just last hour, talking about his optimism about trade talks with several countries, including Mexico and Japan.

CNN's Alayna Treene back with us from the White House.

Stay close to social media today seems to be one of the messages we've learned already this morning. But strong words from the president already.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, stay close to social media I think is kind of a motto for this entire administration in covering this White House, Kate.

But look, you're right, I mean, these are some very strong words from President Donald Trump. I want to read for you just a little bit of what he posted. He said, quote, "Jerome Powell of the Fed, who was always too late and wrong, yesterday issued a report which was another and typical complete mess. He said Powell's termination cannot come fast enough.

Look, it's very clear that President Donald Trump has long been a huge critic of Jerome Powell and really criticized the way that he has been handling the Federal Reserve. Now, of course, the Fed is an independent agency, but that hasn't stopped the president from this morning, but also in the past, threatening to try and remove him from his post. It's something we saw him do back in 2018. He has continued to argue in the years since.

But I think the timing of it, of course, is why this is also so significant. It comes just a day after, as you mentioned, Powell offered his starkest warning yet and really painted a very, you know, in some ways bleak picture of the economic environment because of the tariff plans that the president has laid out. He called it a challenging scenario that really puts its two main goals, which is, of course, stable inflation, but also stable labor market, in tension. And so, you know, the president has often said that he believes that

Jerome Powell should cut rates, that he should be doing things at the Fed to kind of manipulate the market in a way that would boost the stock market, boost the economy in a way that, of course, this president wants to see.

Jerome Powell, yesterday, though, made clear that, again, the Fed operates independently and they're going to continue doing so moving forward.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Alayna, all right, stay close to the socials, as you always do. Thank you so much.

John.

[09:05:02]

BERMAN: All right, this morning, the battle over higher education - really with higher education. In one corner, President Trump with the full power of the federal government. In the other, the nation's oldest and wealthiest college. The Trump administration is now asking the IRS to rescind Harvard's tax exempt status after Harvard became the first major school in the nation to reject its demands to change policy. And the administration is also going after Harvard's reputation as a top destination for the best and brightest from around the world. The Department of Homeland Security is threatening to revoke the university's ability to enroll international students if it does not turn over disciplinary records for some students with visas, including those involved in campus protests.

Let's get right to CNN's Evan Perez.

Evan, you were part of the team really that broke the story about the Trump White House pushing the IRS to revoke Harvard's tax exempt status. Where do things stand and where do they go now?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, this is in the hands of Gary Shapley. He is the new acting commissioner of the IRS. And he does have that power.

Now, typically what happens is, when the IRS is going to do something like this, there's a process involved. There's usually a finding inside the IRS that some organization has violated the rules that allow it to get tax exemption. We don't know of any such process that has happened yet, except for the one that the president has already made clear on Truth Social, on his social media platform, where he says, and, you know, repeatedly, over the last few days, he's raised the issue of canceling their tax exemption, Harvard's tax exemption. And then yesterday he also added this. He said, "Harvard is a joke, teaches hate and stupidity, and should no longer receive federal funds."

Now, as you know, the federal government has already canceled or frozen more than $2 billion worth of funding that goes to Harvard University. And, you know, part of the case that the president is making is that Harvard is - well, one of the claims is that this is all about anti-Semitism and the campus protests that happened over the last few months.

But he's also made it clear that it's also about ideology, that he believes that - that Harvard needs to show that its producing, I guess, a better - a more welcoming environment for conservatives.

Now, mind you, you know, John, that - that Harvard has produced a lot of famous conservatives, including Ted Cruz, Neil Gorsuch, Ron DeSantis. So,, it's clear that the president doesn't see things quite that way, though.

BERMAN: Yes, Tom Cotton, among others. So, every day that passes, the federal government tries to, I think, tweak Harvard in even different ways. And now we're learning, Evan, that DHS might make it harder for Harvard to enroll foreign students. What's going on there?

PEREZ: Right. In this - Kristi - in this scathing letter that - that Kristi Noem sent to Harvard University, one of the things that she raises is that they want to see records, disciplinary records for students, foreign students and visa holders, people who they believe were involved in any of these campus protests that have been called anti-Semitic. These are people who were protesting the war in Gaza.

And what the - what's at stake is Harvard's ability to host foreign students. Now, that's a big, big part of business for any university. As you know, John, there are billions of dollars at stake here because foreign students pay full freight. They don't get - they don't get the benefit of any breaks necessarily, scholarships and so on, from these universities. So, for Harvard, this could hurt a lot on the bottom line, in addition to the other federal funding pressures that they're getting from the Trump administration.

BERMAN: This all seems destined for the courts.

PEREZ: Oh, yes.

BERMAN: Evan Perez, thank you again. You're on the leading edge of this reporting. Appreciate it.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right, also new this morning, the Justice Department will be appealing after a federal judge threatened to hold the Trump administration in criminal contempt for defying his orders. This has to do with the Alien Enemies Act that the White House leaned on as reason to deport planeloads of alleged Venezuelan gang members. That judge ordered that - a pause on that, ordering the planes to return to the United States. They did not. That was in March. And now the U.S. district judge, James Boasberg, is now writing this. "The government's actions on that day demonstrate a willful disregard for its order, sufficient for the court to conclude that probable cause exists to find the government in criminal contempt."

Boasberg wants answers now. He wants sworn statements about who made the call to not turn the planes around. And potentially, he says, if he doesn't get that, he might require live testimony from witnesses.

Joining us right now is Lee Gelernt. He is the ACLU's lead attorney in this lawsuit. He's also deputy director of the ACLU's Immigrants' Rights Project.

Lee, thank you so much for coming in. It was a very busy day yesterday for all of you in hearing from the judge on this. You're celebrating this decision, no doubt.

[09:10:02]

And this has been going on for a month now. How much longer do you think it will be before you have some answers, before this is settled one way or the other?

LEE GELERNT, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, ACLU IMMIGRANTS' RIGHTS PROJECT: Yes, well, thanks for having me, Kate.

I - I don't think we're ready to celebrate anything yet until these men are returned. You know, that's what we're focused on. I think Judge Boasberg is rightly concerned that the executive branch is not playing straight with the courts and thumbing their nose at the courts, and that's an issue that he rightly points out goes well beyond this case.

But he's also very focused on making these - sure that these men can get back who were wrongfully sent to this brutal Salvadoran prison. So, he's given the government a choice, essentially, either take the stand and explain yourself, or do the right thing and facilitate the return of these men.

We are focused on getting these men back, and that's going to continue to be our focus.

BOLDUAN: One of the things that the judge is, and has been asking for, as you're getting at for the whole time is, who in the administration was responsible for making the call, disobeying his instructions to turn back the plane - turn back the planes.

GELERNT: Right.

BOLDUAN: How high within the administration do you think that that decision making reached?

GELERNT: You know, I really don't know. But I think the judge is doing the right thing by taking it step by step. I assume it had to be very high level, but I don't know. But I've - you know obviously as the opposing counsel, have been in court every one - for every one of these hearings, and the judge has, I think, given ample time, I mean, bent over backwards to give the administration time to explain themselves. And I think that's one of the things that's going on here is he feels like he's at the end of the road and needs to get answers. So, we'll see how high up it goes. I assume it has to go very high to - to decide, we're not going to comply with the court's order or they - I mean, they think they complied. It seems as though Judge Boasberg has serious, serious doubts that they complied. But we'll see. You know, who knows how high it goes.

But as I said, we're going to stay focused on trying to get the men back. That's our main concern. But, obviously, Judge Boasberg understands that, but.

BOLDUAN: Are you worried - the White House saying it's going to appeal, does that worry you?

GELERNT: Yes, for sure. I mean they already appealed. They were appealed within a few hours. And, truthfully, I expect them to take it all the way to the Supreme Court. We had hoped that they would do the right thing and just say, OK, this has gone too far, let us get these men back. They were removed without any due process whatsoever. But instead of complying with Judge Boasberg's order, they've appealed. And, truthfully, I don't know what the administration is going to do, but based on past actions, I suspect they're going to try and take it all the way to the Supreme Court. And that very much worries me because every day that these men wrongfully stay in this Salvadoran prison, they're in danger. I think we - you know.

BOLDUAN: One of the things - and there's overlap here with the - the other case of the Maryland man who was deported and remains in that same prison.

GELERNT: Right.

BOLDUAN: And part of the overlap here is the allegation of being a member of a gang. The allegation here is that all 200 plus of these men, the Trump administration, say, we're all members of the Venezuelan gang TDA.

GELERNT: Right.

BOLDUAN: But there is new reporting from "The New York Times." They just published a big piece yesterday. And in it, it says, "a Times investigation found little evidence of any criminal background or any association with the gang for most of the men. In fact, the prosecutors, law enforcement officials, court documents and media reports that The Times uncovered or spoke to in multiple countries suggest only a few of the detainees might have any connection to TDA."

They do report that at least 32 of the men sent to El Salvador have faced serious criminal accusations - accusations or convictions in the United States. I lay that out to ask, does the ACLU have a number on how many that they believe have suspected gang ties, have committed crimes, or how many you believe are totally innocent and being swept up in this?

GELERNT: Yes, so I'm glad you asked about that, Kate. Let me - let me make a few points. One is, we don't have comprehensive numbers yet because the government is not - has not released all the information about the individuals or even given us all their names. So - but our investigation suggests that there were multiple mistakes. We don't know whether that was virtually all of the individuals or not. But the critical part about that is that they weren't given any due process. So, Judge Boasberg has made absolutely clear that if they are deportable, they can be deported under the immigration laws. He's not saying they need to be released. And if they committed crimes, they can be prosecuted for them. He's simply saying they cannot be removed under a wartime authority to a Salvadoran prison when they're Venezuelan without any due process.

[09:15:05]

So, that's our - when they get back to the U.S., and hopefully they do, there'll be due process. And those that are deportable under our immigration laws can be sent back to Venezuela. And if they've committed crimes, they can be prosecuted.

This is about the right to due process. We know from our investigation, and obviously "The Times" is saying it as well, and other reporters have said it as well, that many, many, many of these people had no ties to the Venezuelan gang. But without due process and without even knowing all their names, we can't be sure exactly of anything. So, that's the first step.

BOLDUAN: I mean, that's the scary bit of it, not even knowing all of their names and they are there.

GELERNT: Exactly.

BOLDUAN: Lee, thank you very much for coming on. We will continue to follow this.

John.

BERMAN: All right, this morning, three top Pentagon officials placed on leave in as many days, as the department expands its investigation into possible leaks.

Just in, President Trump announcing that he's in tariff negotiations. New discussions taking place today, but no announcement on any deals. You can see stocks futures are mixed at this moment.

And new warnings of extreme fire danger across parts of the country as millions prepare to travel for Easter weekend.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:20:48]

BERMAN: All right, this morning, a third top official at the Pentagon now placed on administrative leave. A defense source tells CNN, quote, this is a purge of people who had disagreements with the Pentagon chief of staff.

Let's get right to CNN's Natasha Bertrand, who's got the very latest on this. So, what are you learning now?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, three senior Pentagon officials have now been placed on administrative leave pending investigations. And we only really know the nature of one of those investigations, which is into Dan Caldwell, who was a very senior advisor to Secretary Hegseth. He apparently has been placed on leave pending a probe into the unauthorized disclosure of information. The other two, Darin Selnick, who is the Pentagon deputy chief of staff, and Colin Carroll, who is the chief of staff to the deputy secretary of defense, DOD would only tell us that they have been placed on leave pending some unknown investigation.

But I think it's worth mentioning here that there has been a large, wide-scale wide - a wide - wide-ranging leak probe at the Pentagon, including with the use of polygraph tests to try to find individuals who may be leaking to the press. And so, it does appear that in addition to Caldwell, who again is very close to Secretary Hegseth, Selnick and Carroll may also have been caught up in this wide ranging leak investigation, but still trying to get more information on what exactly happened here. Though we should note, it is ironic that one official would be placed on leave for allegedly disclosing information. But the secretary of defense, who, of course, revealed classified information on a single chat, has yet to face any accountability for that.

John.

BERMAN: Well, there's that, but what is Secretary Hegseth saying about this? And aren't some of these guys like his guys?

BERTRAND: Yes, so Caldwell and Selnick, they have been working with Hegseth for years and years. They worked with him at a veterans group that he - that Secretary Hegseth was the CEO of. They are very close to him. And so it is definitely notable that they have been marched out here.

But Secretary Hegseth is not saying anything about these very high level departures. And, in fact, we are just learning that he failed to greet the French defense minister outside the Pentagon early this morning during an honor cordon, which is really a remarkable break from protocol. And it's unclear why he essentially snubbed the defense minister there. He has been trying studiously, though, to avoid the press, and press would have been present at that honor cordon. And so that could be one reason why he did not appear there.

But it is really a remarkable break from previous secretaries of defense who make it a point, as a show of respect, to greet their counterparts outside the Pentagon when they host them for these very high-level bilateral meetings.

BERMAN: Huh, that is something.

All right, Natasha Bertrand, thank you very much for this reporting. It sounds like we might hear more soon.

All right, this morning, President Trump blasting the Fed chair, saying his termination cannot come soon enough. Why? Well, Jerome Powell sent shivers through the markets with his comments about the president's tariffs, what they mean for prices, what they mean for economic growth. All this and we are standing by for the opening bell just minutes away. You can see futures mixed at this moment. A new push from the White House to slash nearly one third of the

budget from the nation's top public health agency. Which potentially life-saving programs could now be on the chopping block?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:28:42]

BOLDUAN: Breaking overnight, potential massive cuts could be coming to America's top public health agency now run by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. CNN has reviewed an internal Trump administration memo showing that the White House is pushing to slash $40 billion from the Department of Health and Human Services and its 13 critical agencies that it oversees. That would mean cutting nearly one-third of its entire budget.

CNN's Meg Tirrell breaks it down for you.

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this memo gives us one of the first overall glimpses of what the Department of Health and Human Services might look like after this massive reorganization we've been hearing about now for weeks. We knew that 20,000 workers were leaving HHS, half of those voluntarily, and half in a massive reduction in force that cut the size of the workforce at HHS by 25 percent.

But we'd only been learning really piecemeal about where those cuts exactly were coming from. And this gives us a picture. If this is adopted, now this is not a final look at what this will look like. We have to see what happens down the line. But if this proposal is adopted, we would see more than 40 percent cuts to the budgets of the CDC and the National Institutes of Health. At the CDC, that would include elimination of entire programs, things like the global health center, chronic disease prevention, domestic HIV and AIDS prevention, programs focused on gun violence, injury prevention, youth violence prevention, drowning and minority health.

[09:30:09]