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Pope Francis Dies At Age 88; Sister Norma Pimentel of Catholic Charities of The Rio Grande Valley On Pope Francis' Death; Vance Met With Pope Francis Hours Before Pontiff's Death. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired April 21, 2025 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[07:31:55]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: You're listening to Timothy Cardinal Dolan, the Archbishop of New York. Let's listen.

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN, ARCHBISHOP OF NEW YORK: -- wakes me up a little after 4:00 to tell me the somber news that the Holy Father had gone to the Lord. And so I turned to the Bible.

We priest and bishops make a promise that every day we say what we call a divine office. And listen, here is the reading for today. It comes from Saint Peter whom we Catholics cherish as the first pope -- the first bishop of Rome named by Jesus when he said, "You are Peter, and on this rock, I will build my church, and I will give to you the keys to the kingdom of heaven."

Listen to what Peter writes. "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ who in his great mercy gave us new birth -- a birth unto hope which draws its life from the resurrection -- the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead -- a birth to an imperishable inheritance incapable of fading or defyment which is kept in heaven for you."

Is that not providential, Joe? Is that not providential that would be the passage from the Holy Bible that we would contemplate on this Easter Monday? And it says it all.

This is -- you know, in Italy they call this Festa degli Angeli -- Lunedi dell'Angelo -- the Monday of the Angels -- the day after Easter. Because this is the day that the angels -- we remember the angels announcing the resurrection. And remember what the angels said to the women -- why are you looking for the living among the dead?

We're convinced that even though Pope Francis has passed over -- passed over from this life to the next he still lives. He still lives. Even though we have rock-solid confidence in the mercy of Jesus we never take it for granted, so we ask mercy upon his noble eternal soul. You bet we do. He'd want us to. He was such an eloquent preacher of divine mercy.

But we also offer gratitude for God for the gift -- the gift that he was. We don't call him Holy Father for nothing. He's the father of our family. And there's a death in the family and we're saddened.

We use the Latin phrase these days starting about five hours ago, "sege paquanti" -- the chair is empty. The empty chair. The chair of Peter is empty -- sege paquanti, all right? That's the chair he sat in when he visited New York. That's his portrait, obviously. That's the cross he carried. The chalice -- the chalice that he gave me, remember, at Madison Square Garden. That's the chalice he gave me.

So we have vivid, grateful memories of him and I'm just so happy that you all are here. We couldn't -- we can never choreograph our own birth or death, can we? That's always in God's hands. But if you could choreograph it, you couldn't choreograph it any better than what happened.

[07:35:07]

The last time we saw him, Easter Sunday. The last words, a blessed Easter, as he gave us his blessing. You couldn't -- the day that we believe Jesus rose from the dead and shares that victory with us in which we trust by divine mercy Pope Francis now shares in abundance. You couldn't have choreographed it better and we thank him for that.

The way he lived and the way he died, he was a great teacher. A great teacher which the pope is always called to be.

Thank you again for being here. Stick with me in the coming days if I can be of any service to you. I just appreciate you and the possibility of speaking to the wider community. Thank you, everybody, OK? Joe, what do we do now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A question of two?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

DOLAN: Hi, Julia. How you been?

JULIA: OK. How are you?

DOLAN: Happy Easter. Happy Passover. Happy Easter.

JULIA: If you could talk about his stewardship and what he meant to Catholics, and what he brought to the papacy and church.

DOLAN: I love that word "stewardship." Thanks for using it. Stewardship means we're aware -- gratefully aware of the gifts that God has given us -- humbly aware. And we try to use it in the best of our ability. And he was a wonderful steward of the gifts that God gave him.

I remember right after I was there in 2013 at the conclave, and we elected him. And when we all left after he had blessed the crowd, and we went over to the dome of Santa Marta for lunch. And obviously, he did the opening prayer, but before he's looking out at all of us and he says, "God forgive you for what you did." So there was a humility and a sense of humor there from the beginning. Those were gifts that he had. He'd be the first to admit, you know, when you think of the towering intellects of John Paul II and Benedict XVI -- he'd be the first to admit that perhaps the abundant gifts that God had given him were evident elsewhere -- in his simplicity, in his humility, in his easygoingness. These were -- these were -- boy, these were gifts that he stewarded so well.

But yet, here's a -- here's a biggie, too. He taught us -- he taught us as the end by allowing us to watch him die. He taught us that -- he taught us that who we are is more important than what we can do. He couldn't do much. He could barely raise his hand yesterday, did you see? He could barely speak. He couldn't do much but what he was as a child of God created in God's image and likeness destined for all eternity, given the high office of the successor of Peter.

What he was was so much more important than what he could do, all right? He did a lot, believe me. But in those final months I think that's when he had the most eloquent pulpit ever.

So, thanks, all right? Good question.

JULIA: What's the next -- yeah, thank you.

BERMAN: You've been listening to Timothy Cardinal Dolan, the archbishop of New York, talking about the passing of Pope Francis. Sege paquanti -- the chair is empty. Literally, the chair of St. Peter is now empty.

And Cardinal Dolan, who is never at a loss for words --

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Correct.

BERMAN: -- I think it's safe to say, talked about how this feels like a death in the family for him. The pope literally the Holy Father -- the father of that family. And the cardinal, I think, talking about what has been lost.

Obviously now with his death there are new questions about the direction of the church. Let's get to CNN Vatican correspondent Christopher Lamb in St. Peter's Square.

And I think it's fitting that we hear from an American cardinal because in many ways, Christopher, it is the American church seen as more conservative perhaps than the rest of the world and certainly than the direction that Pope Francis was trying to push it.

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. OK, can you please boost the audio because I'm really finding it difficult to hear the --

BERMAN: All right. Christopher Lamb having a difficult time hearing us. Chris, can you hear us?

LAMB: Yes, I can -- yeah.

BERMAN: I was mentioning that we just heard from Timothy Cardinal Dolan, the archbishop of New York. And it's fitting, in a way, to hear from an American cardinal because the American church in some ways is seen as more conservative than the rest of the world, and Pope Francis was seen as pushing away from that.

Can you hear me? All right. Obviously, we're having a hard time, and we'll get back to Christopher who is in St. Peter's Square where I do imagine it is quite loud now and quite active. So back to him in a moment.

BOLDUAN: And a lot going on.

BERMAN: Yeah.

BOLDUAN: And we will -- we will get right back to Christopher Lamb.

In the meantime let's talk more about what this moment means and what this means for the church going forward.

[07:40:00]

Joining us right now is Sister Norma Pimentel. She is the executive director of Catholic Charities of the Rio Grande Valley at the southern border and has been dubbed at one point the pope's favorite nun in wonderful 2020 profile. Sister, thank you so much for sharing some moments with us this morning.

How are you feeling this morning with the news setting in?

SISTER NORMA PIMENTEL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CATHOLIC CHARITIES OF THE RIO GRANDE VALLEY: It is truly a very sad moment, you know? It's a big loss for all of us and especially for us here in the Rio Grande Valley. We -- Pope Francis was an inspiration. A strength moving forward giving us courage to continue doing the good work of our God.

BOLDUAN: Sister, you last met, I was reading, with the pope earlier this year. What of that meeting are you thinking about this morning?

PIMENTEL: You know, it was -- it's truly exciting that we were able to be there. I was -- I was able to join at the Vatican for a special time that he was very interested in our voice and what we could say to others that would pass on that message of hope. And so I think it was truly a blessing to have had the opportunity to go and visit and be with him and hear his voice and hear his message again, you know. It's very encouraging for all of us and especially for me.

BOLDUAN: You have run the humanitarian respite center in Texas for over a decade. It's a migrant shelter where I believe about half -- over half a million migrants and immigrants have gone for food, help, aid, respite after being legally released by DHS. And it's this work -- your life's work in this -- in this regard that has earned the pope's praise.

His care and love, and focus on migrants, on the downtrodden, and refugees around the world -- what impact do you think that has had when it does seem at least parts of the world seem to be moving in the opposite direction these days than what Pope Francis was trying -- the message he was trying to send? PIMENTEL: You know, the -- his message was very clear for all of us that what we were doing was the right thing to care for our immigrant brothers and sisters. To live out the gospel values. To receive and welcome people that were hurting or marginalized, and to stand strong with that position of we're not doing anything wrong to reach out and see the humanity of somebody hurting and that is here in our community.

And so it was a great encouragement to all of us in spite of the fact that of others being so against it and fighting and not welcoming the immigrants and families of those people that were here looking for safety and protection.

And so Pope Francis' message was a wonderful inspiration to all of us to stay strong and continue doing with courage the right thing that God is calling us to do.

BOLDUAN: And what do you hope -- I mean, along these exact lines, what do you hope this pope's lasting legacy is as we now head into this -- entering this period of mourning and then head towards electing his successor?

PIMENTEL: The most important thing that I think we must hold on to is the fact that humanity is sacred, and we must hold -- protect it and defend it and be the best we can to each other. And so I think that not excluding nobody and not rejecting nobody but rather be more inclusive about each other and especially those who are more marginalized to bring them in and be part of our lives.

BOLDUAN: Sister, do you have a favorite or lasting personal memory in any of your encounters with Pope Francis that you'd like to share with us this morning?

PIMENTEL: Well, you know, the most magical moment for me was the moment that I met him via that special moment in 2020 where he actually asked to -- actually wanted to meet me personally and called me out and asked me come, come, come. You know, get closer. I want to see you. I want to talk to you.

And that was, like, the moment I couldn't believe what was happening to me. And so I'll never -- that goes with me so closely. And so many people that's all over the world always remind me of how beautiful that moment was not just for me but for the whole world, you know, to see how he cared about us religions. And I include all religions because I think through me, he was able to single out and to recognize the fact that the work religious women are doing in the church is very important. And so I feel so blessed that he did this to all of us by singling me out.

[07:45:05]

BOLDUAN: Sister Norma Pimentel, thank you very much for coming on and sharing with us this morning. We sincerely appreciate it.

PIMENTEL: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you very much.

PIMENTEL: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: All right. We're going to show you live pictures once again from Vatican City as we continue to follow this breaking news this morning. Pope Francis has passed away at the age of 88.

We'll be right back.

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[07:50:10]

BOLDUAN: Welcome back.

We do continue to follow major breaking news this morning. Eighty- eight-year-old Pope Francis passed away -- passing away just hours ago and just hours after his surprise public appearance during Sunday -- on Sunday to offer the traditional Easter blessing at the Vatican on Sunday.

One of the last people to see Pope Francis before he -- his passing was actually Vice President J.D. Vance who was spending the Easter holiday in Vatican City with his family.

CNN's Kevin Liptak joining us now from the White House for more on this. And we know we have heard from the vice president but what more are you hearing from the White House about the passing of the Pope, Kevin?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yeah, and the White House putting out on its official social media just this simple message of "Rest in peace" with photos of President Trump and Vice President Vance with the pope over the last several years.

Of course, that meeting with Vance, which just took place yesterday, came as something of a surprise. It was not on Vance's official itinerary for his visit to Rome. But Vance, of course, is himself a Catholic and he did visit the Vatican for about 20 minutes yesterday meeting in the pope's private residence, talking very briefly. The pope handed him a tie and some large chocolate Easter eggs for his kids before they parted ways.

And Vance saying this morning that he had "...just learned of the passing of Pope Francis. My heart goes out to the millions of Christians all over the world who loved him." Vance says that he was "happy to see him yesterday, though he was obviously very ill."

You know, Pope Francis is someone who did have these public clashes both with Vance and with Trump over the course of Trump's presidencies. Even before he was elected in 2016 the Pope talked about this idea of building walls to keep out migrants as something that he said was unchristian. And this sort of continued over the course of his presidencies -- clashes on issues of climate change, on issues of arms sales, on this issue of migration. But I do think it was notable that when President Trump went to visit

the Pope at the Vatican in 2017, all of those issues were sort of put to the side. And the president emerged somewhat starstruck by the appearance. He said it was the honor of his lifetime.

You know, that's how much presidents emerged from their meetings with the pope. I've covered several of them now. You'll remember when President Obama invited the Pope here to the White House. There were tens of thousands of people on the South Lawn -- you know, more than I've ever seen out there.

And then Joe Biden, when he met with the pope, a similar experience. Obviously, Biden himself a Catholic. The pope counseled the Biden family after the death of their son Beau. And President Biden tweeting this morning that "Pope Francis was unlike who came before him." He said that "above all, he was a pope for everyone. He was the people's pope. A light of faith, hope, and love."

BOLDUAN: Kevin, thank you so much for sharing that with us. Much more to learn about reaction inside the White House and all around the world. Thank you, Kevin -- John.

BERMAN: We're getting a sense now, Kate, of how this process will unfold over the next several hours and several days. Some of it's steeped in tradition well over a thousand years old and some of it being modified through the generations.

The body of Pope Francis will be placed in a coffin in just a few hours. His family and senior Vatican officials will be present for the rite. It will be overseen by the camerlengo -- literally, the chamberlain of the Vatican Kevin Farrell -- Cardinal Kevin Farrell.

With us now is Kim Daniels, the director of the Initiative on Catholic Social Thought and Public Life at Georgetown University. Kim is also a member of the Vatican Dicastery for Communication. Thank you so much for being with us, Director.

In your role in the communications of the Vatican so interesting because you get the sense that what Pope Francis wanted to communicate and how was very different from those before him.

KIM DANIELS, DIRECTOR, INITIATIVE ON CATHOLIC SOCIAL THOUGHT AND PUBLIC LIFE, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY, MEMBER, VATICAN DICASTERY FOR COMMUNICATION: Well, I would say first of all, it's true that he had this forward-looking dynamic vision, but I want to stress what he had in common with those before him.

You know, this for us here as Catholics is really a moment of mourning, it's a moment of prayer, and it's a moment of remembering what we share in common, which is a dedication to Jesus Christ and the gospel, and our church.

And what Pope Francis did was orient that vision and focus it on the poor and the vulnerable. Focus it on mercy and accompaniment, rooting our church in tradition but also looking forward with hope. And really, just a remarkable gift to our church. [07:55:00]

BERMAN: And consistent in that message from the time from before -- well before he was the pope -- during his papacy, going to Lampedusa, that Italian island, in his first trip, really, to put the focus on migrants there.

How do you think his 12 years -- the 12-year reign in the papacy will be remembered?

DANIELS: It's interesting you point out his visit to Lampedusa right at the beginning of his papacy. And I'm not sure if you recall but his advisers didn't want him to it. And he really, really pushed and said this is the place I want to go first really to put the focus on migrants and refugees, which has been a focus of his papacy throughout.

Overall, I think we'll see it as a legacy of spiritual renewal and structural reform of the Catholic Church. He had this hopeful vision of a home with open doors. The church isn't a fortress but a home with open doors. And he especially focused on reaching those who had been forgotten -- the poor and the vulnerable -- and that's really the message we all carry in our hearts today.

BERMAN: What was his relationship with the church in the United States? I some ways -- and I think this might seem ironic to a lot of people -- the American church was perhaps seen as more conservative -- more entrenched than some parts of the church around the world.

DANIELS: You know, it's interesting. The Catholic Church is the most multicultural, multilingual institution in the world. So we are a global church, and Americans are only six percent of that global church.

And for all of us here in America -- all of us American Catholics, Pope Francis is first and foremost our spiritual father. He's a pastor.

This is a very sad day and a day of prayer because for who -- whatever your political views we all hold them close to our heart. And I want to just stress that at the same time when we have these stories of division, we also know that most Catholics -- 75 percent of American Catholics had a positive vision -- a very positive vision of Pope Francis, especially young Catholics who really responded to his authenticity and directness.

So he did have this way of challenging us -- challenging us about and wanting to welcome migrants and refugees. Wanting to be open to the poor and make sure that our economy includes everybody. But he also had this message of unity and wanting to call us all together.

BERMAN: You mention, obviously, that American Catholics and Catholics around the world felt very close to him in many ways. Cardinal Dolan, the Archbishop of New York, said it feels like a death in the family. Literally, a death in the family when you're talking about the Holy Father. But this is someone who I think tried to reach people directly.

I was on the streets of New York when he came by once in the Pope mobile and the streets here in New York City were lined with people who wanted to be near him.

And there was a warmth that emanated from him I think right up until the end. We saw the pictures of him with J.D. Vance, the Vice President of the United States, yesterday.

DANIELS: It's amazing. He really did have that warmth about him and this wanting to connect with people individually and personally. His message to all of us was that reality is greater than ideas, he would say, and it's about looking at the person in front of you and approaching them with mercy. And I think for him the individual -- the person right in front of him was always the most important.

I was struck yesterday that he gave Easter eggs to the vice president for his children. That's the kind of warmth that we see throughout his papacy with everyone in front of him.

BERMAN: What do you think drove him? What was it about his upbringing that drove him and compelled him throughout his life until the end?

DANIELS: Well, I think what drove him was this incredible love for Jesus Christ and dedication to the gospel. And above all he was somebody who really was on fire for our faith. His background as a child of immigrants, his background as bishop and then cardinal in Buenos Aires where he really made a point to go into the poorest neighborhoods possible -- to ride the bus there -- and to live a life of humility is something that he carried forward with him.

And I think it's that personal contact that really had him help to teach us to keep the poor and vulnerable, wherever they are, right in front of us, and see what we can do directly to help them.

BERMAN: The first Latin American pope, the first Jesuit pope, the first pope to take the name Francis. This was someone who I think was very conscious of how he was different and how he wanted to be somewhat different. Though, as you say, Kim Daniels, always wanting to keep ties with the past and the legacy of the church.

Kim Daniels, I really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you so much for being with us.

DANIELS: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right. A brand new hour of CNN NEWS CENTRAL starts right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BERMAN: And the breaking news this morning. By now you have probably learned that Pope Francis has passed way at the age of 88.

You're looking at live pictures right now of Vatican City. There have been people gathering in Rome at St. Peter's Square throughout the morning.

The Vatican did announce his death early this morning, U.S. time.