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Sources Say, Hegseth Shared Yemen Strike Details in Second Group Chat; Pope Francis Dies at Age 88; Pope Francis' Death Triggers Nine Days of Mourning. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired April 21, 2025 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: And, Natasha, what more are you learning about this new Signal chat that's come to light?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, sources told us last night that Hegseth up this Signal chat that included about a dozen people, including his wife, his lawyer, and his brother early on in his confirmation process as a way to kind of strategize with some of his closest advisers. But he apparently continued to use this particular Signal chat even after he was confirmed as secretary of defense. And last month, we are told, he did, in fact, share those sensitive details about the military operation against the Houthis in Yemen on that Signal chat that included his wife, lawyer, and brother.

Now, it's not clear at this point whether everyone on that signal chat had a security clearance, but, you know, officials say that it is very unclear as well whether all of these people had a need to know about this military operation that was going on at the time.

Now, as you said, there was already an inspector general review into he's use of Signal, including whether he mishandled classified information, CNN reported at the time that the details that he shared in that first Signal chat were, in fact, highly classified, but Hegseth's spokesperson, Sean Parnell, he issued a statement late last night that said that, quote, there was no classified information in any Signal chat.

So, news of this second signal chat broke just around the same time that Hegseth's former top spokesperson, John Ullyot, wrote a scathing op-ed for Politico, saying that the Pentagon under Hegseth is in, quote, total chaos. He wrote this op-ed just last night, and he said, quote, it's been a month of total chaos at the Pentagon, from leaks of sensitive operational plans to mass firings. The dysfunction is now a major distraction for the president who deserves better from his senior leadership. It's hard to see Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth remaining in his role for much longer.

Ullyot's reference to mass firings there has to do with the fact that Hegseth decided to fire three senior DOD officials last week, including two of his most senior advisers, Dan Caldwell and Darin Selnick. And we are told that the firings actually came after weeks of infighting between these men and Hegseth's now former chief of staff, Joe Lasper. So far, the only public comment that Hegseth has made in the wake of all of this news is a post on X. In response to the Democrats' account saying that he needs to go, he replied, quote, your agenda is illegals, trans and DEI, all of which are no longer allowed at DOD.

Unclear at this point whether he's going to comment any further, but he has been avoiding the press pretty studiously in recent days, Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right, let's see how long that can last though with all of this kind of building up. It's great to see you, Natasha. Thank you very, very much. John?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Talking a little bit more about the loss of Pope Francis, he passed away early this morning at the age of 88. And we're just getting some new details about how these next steps will unfold. He will be placed in a coffin several hours from now. And we're told he won't be wearing the traditional papal robes. He'll be in much more humble garb. And we've also now just learned that he could lie in state in St. Peter's as early as Wednesday, so just two days from now.

Obviously, before he became pope in 2013, he was known as Father Jorge Mario Bergoglio, and that's when Journalist Elisabetta Pique got to know him. And then the two became good friends. She wrote a book called, Pope Francis, Life and Revolution.

Elisabetta joins us now from Rome. I hope you can hear us. We are sorry for the loss of this man, the Holy Father of 1.4 billion Catholics, but also your friend. Tell us about Pope Francis, the person that you knew.

ELISABETTA PIQUE, AUTHOR, POPE FRANCIS, LIFE AND REVOLUTION: Well, the reality I met Pope Francis more than 20 years ago, I met him when he was still the archbishop, Jorge Bergoglio from Buenos Aires. It was 2001. And the reality I was here as correspondent of La Nacio, a newspaper, and my newspaper called me to say, look, the archbishop of Buenos Aires that normally doesn't give interviews will go to Rome. So, he will do an exception and he will have an interview with you.

I was coming in that moment from covering the Middle East, the second Intifada. So,m I wasn't much in church affairs. But I have this first meeting with the Jorge Bergoglio in the place where he used to live here in Rome. That was La Casa del Clero in Via della Scrofa. That was this kind of hotel for church people that when the day after he was elected the 13th of March 2003, he went to pay the bill as a -- I don't know if you remember that one of one of these first like totally a dramatic gesture of this pope.

[08:35:04]

Well, in this first meeting, I have the feeling that this man was something really special. He was not the typical cardinal looking at you, you know, from up to down. He was very straight. He was also normal, as me, as a woman journalist, he would greet, you know, normally. Well, in Argentina, it's normal not to greet with a kiss. So, he gave me a kiss. But the thing most surprising was when I started doing this interview, each of his answers were very direct. They were like -- I was thinking with my journalistic mind, this is the headline. Then another answer was, this is the headline, because he was so clear, so direct, so, you know, not like other cardinals that I would have met that would go, you know, say no, very, very clear answer.

But the real thing that made me understand that it was something very, very different besides his being humble. You know, he was already a cardinal. This was 2001. Well, that three days after this interview was published in my newspaper, this, I say, it was 24 years ago, so there was no social media, et cetera, not, you know, mobile phone. But my telephone rang in my apartment here in Rome, and it was him and he told, said, Elisabetta, this is Padre Bergoglio, and I said, oh my God, maybe I did some mistake in my story. That would be something. And he said I just phone to say thank you.

So, it was really something revealing of a man. And then, of course, since then, we established, relationship. If I would go to Argentina, we would meet, he would read my first book that was about Afghanistan and Iraq. He was always very interested in what was going on in the world. And in that sense, I also have been a war correspondent, he would phone when I was in Gaza, for instance. So, you understand someone that always would respect also my profession as a journalist and really follow also my job, you know?

BERMAN: I have to say there was so much in what you just told us that really gives us a sense of Pope Francis as the person. First, you could tell he was special from the beginning. Second, the way he related to you as a woman, so different and so telling and how he would try to maybe nudge the church a little bit over the years.

While we have you, can I just ask, because you knew him, how do you think he would want to be remembered?

PIQUE: Well, he always -- you know, he said he, he gave a lot of interviews and I remember one that he was asked that question, he said, as a good guy. But, of course, he will be remembered in something much more than a good guy. This was a pope so close to people. You know, I was in the last big trip he did in Indonesia, the country, more Muslims in the world. And I remember seeing people kneeling near his wheelchair when he was going to the plane again.

And the people of a Muslim country, you know, respecting him of a humble leader, a leader that would arrive in all these countries with a normal car. He never wanted a limousine. And also someone that was the voice of the people with no voice, because this was a pope always since the first moment close to discarded the poor people, the migrants. He wanted to go in the first trip to Lampedusa, you know, this tiny island, south of Sicily, very close to Africa, where is the symbol, the drama of the migration that we live also today.

And until the last day of his papacy, that was yesterday, and we saw him here, he couldn't read the message, he couldn't read, but was his message. And in the message he was appealing for peace, appealing for the migrants, appealing for the people that nobody cares, you know, the discarded, the outcast of the society. So, I think this pope will be, remember also to be the pope who wanted a church that was there, you know, to receive everybody without excluding nobody, so open to (INAUDIBLE). He always had (INAUDIBLE), everybody, everybody, everybody inside. And inside, the more that has to be inside are the sinners.

[08:40:02]

Because, you know, the sinner -- you know, God forgives everybody. And so this message of mercy and a church open to everybody to heal the wounds of the world, I think this will be the -- like this, he will be remembered.

BERMAN: Elisabetta Pique, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and your memories this morning. Everybody, everybody, everybody, that is who Pope Francis wanted to be in the church and really share the world with. And as you say, he wanted to be remembered as a good guy. I have to say, being remembered as a good guy and a great man, that combination is truly remarkable. Elisabetta, thank you very much and we are sorry for the loss of your friend.

All right, our breaking news coverage continues on the loss of Pope Francis.

And there is other news this morning. The feud between President Trump and Harvard University, a one-way feud, I should say, the president going after Harvard. The White House is now threatening to slash more than $1 billion in funding.

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[08:45:00]

BERMAN: The breaking news, the world waking up to the news that Pope Francis has passed away at the age of 88. We are getting some new details in about what happens next.

His body will be placed in a coffin several hours from now. This is a ceremony that will include some of his family members as well as senior Vatican officials who will be presided over by the chamberlain of the Vatican, Kevin Farrell, who was once archbishop of Dallas, an American-Irish born. The Vatican says now that the Pope could lie in state in St. Peter's as soon as Wednesday.

And, again, this sets off a period based on thousand years of tradition, but also some tweaks that have taken place over the generations.

Let's get right to CNN's Jim Bittermann in Paris on what we can expect over the next several days.

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: John, if we can judge from the past papal funerals, I think we can expect a period that really literally lives up to the word inter regna. It is an inter regna, between reigns. We have the death of one pope. The next pope has not yet been selected. So, there'd be a period of kind of a vacuum in terms of the power structure in the Vatican, the cardinals themselves who have the various Vatican offices will resign not as Cardinals but from the offices that they hold. Only two cardinals will remain active, and those are the ones that will set up the conclave eventually.

And, yes, it the funeral was cement to take place within four to six days. And in between now and then there will be a period of lying in state where the average Catholic can come to Rome and take a look at the pope's body lying within the Vatican walls. It's going to be a period of kind of no action, no news, but in a way, it'll be -- for many Catholics, there'll be a period of much news because they'll be thinking about what's next. The cardinals themselves will be thinking about what's next in terms of the structure of the church, where they're going from here. They'll be talking among themselves about that.

They probably will not be talking to the news media. As I've covered every papal succession since Paul the 6th. And the news media really have a hard time at this point trying to figure out what the cardinals are thinking about, how they should cast their votes. They like to say, of course, that they're moved by the Holy Spirit, but, in fact, if you saw the series or the movie, Conclave, you get a pretty good idea of what really takes place, a kind of discussion of the issues facing the church and what the cardinals can expect and what they should expect of the church to come. John?

BERMAN: And it is worth noting that more than half the cardinals who will vote at the conclave were appointed by Pope Francis. So, his legacy will very much be felt in practice as well.

All right, Jim Bittermann in Paris, thanks so much, Jim.

BOLDUAN: Let's bring in someone we lean on quite often, and I'm very happy to see him this morning on this news. Joining us right now is Father Edward Beck. It's great to see you. We wish you were here in person. We'll take you anyway. We can get you though on a morning like this.

One thing that has been noted, and I know you care deeply about as well, is the pope's first trip outside of Rome after Francis became, when he became pope, was to the Italian island of Lampedusa. And it came with some, you could say, some controversy or some pushback from those around him as he wanted to highlight the plight of migrants and refugees around the world. Why is that so important and symbolic of the pope that he was?

FATHER EDWARD BECK, ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIEST: Well, you're right Kate. He decides to go to this tiny island that nobody had heard of, except, of course, migrants who were coming mostly from Africa and other places, and were lost at sea around that island. It was became the entry point to hopefully a new world for them. And the pope chose to go to the margins, even though it wasn't far from Rome for him, it was to the margins.

[08:50:05]

Because his whole papacy was based on go to where people are needed, especially those who are suffering.

And as we know, the immigration issue and migrants became a hallmark of his papacy. So, he decided he was going to get off on the right foot. He wanted to set his agenda right from the start, despite some opposition. And he really just wanted to see and show what kind of pope he was going to be. And that really that first action marks his papacy.

BERMAN: You know, I think it's so important that you point out he wanted to show people what the papacy was because this was a pope, again, who didn't just tell us what he was doing and why he was doing it. Very little ambiguity in a lot of his words and actions, but he wanted to show the world also to live by his own example, father. What did he change in the 12 years that he reigned? What did he change?

BECK: I think he changed this kind of grandiose notion of the church. He was about getting out of the sacristy. Don't be self-reverential. Get to where the sheep are, the smell of the flocks. I mean, it was his metaphor. You have to have the smell of the sheep on you. And so he didn't like the co-hierarchical structure, the privileged nature of the clergy, and he really tried to say, you need to be where your people are.

So, I think that whole notion of the church triumphant was transformed by this papacy because, as we know, even in death, he is shunning some of those traps, really, that he saw them, ecclesiastical traps. He wants something more simple. He doesn't want to be like a king, a reign of a king or a king who has died. He wants it a pastor. That's what he was. He was a person, a priest who ministered to his people. He was bishop of Rome and bishop to the world, and yet people felt a personal connection to him. And I think that's really why he was so important to people.

BOLDUAN: And we just got in, Father, a statement from former President Barack Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama and where they call Pope Francis the rare leader who made us want to be better people. And also to your point in his humility and his gestures at once simple and profound, embracing the sick, ministering to the homeless, washing the feet of young prisoners, he shook us out of our complacency and reminded us that we are all bound by moral obligations to God and one another. It just speaks, I mean, right to the point you were just making.

BECK: Such a beautiful statement, Kate. I mean, even this Holy Thursday in his convalescence, and he is told by his doctors don't be around people, you know, especially that you can be compromised, and yet he decides to go to the prison anyway. He wasn't able to wash the feed. But just think of it, just few days ago, feeling as he does. He went to a prison on Holy Thursday.

Now, they had never done that before. I mean, they've washed feet in St. Peter's, you know, with people. And yet, again, for him, these were symbolic gestures and real gestures that he felt to find the papacy and was where he should be. And he made every effort in his final days to show how important that was.

BOLDUAN: Father Edward Beck, it's great to see you. Thank you so much.

BECK: You too, Kate.

BOLDUAN: We'll continue. We've got much more on the breaking news as we are learning more details of what the next hours and days are going to look like in this nine-day period of mourning for Pope Francis.

We also have other news that we are following this morning. Florida State University is announcing new options this morning for students as some begin to return to class today.

And a new way to help climbers who dare to take on Mount Everest. Drones will now be allowed to deliver supplies for those climbing the world's highest mountain.

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[08:55:00]

BERMAN: All right. A new report by The Wall Street Journal says the Trump administration plans to pull another $1 billion in federal research funding from Harvard. Last week, officials froze $2.2 billion in grants after Harvard refused demands for oversight of hiring, admissions and protests. Harvard rejected the demands in a letter, calling them a threat to its independence and rights. CNN has reached out to Harvard and the White House for comment.

Florida State University students are returning to class this morning but with remote options, this following the shooting there last week. Evidence markers have been cleared from the campus where shell casings were found after the son of a local sheriff's deputy killed two people and injured several others. Among the victims are University Dining Coordinator Robert Morales and a campus vendor employee, Tiru Chabba.

All right, starting this year, drones will deliver supplies on Mount Everest to Sherpas who help climbers climb the mountain. Airlift technology, a local drone mapping startup is helping those Sherpas navigate and set up trails for the climbers. The new technology will make it safer, not only for the Sherpas who risk their lives every day, but also, of course, for the thousands of climbers.

A new hour of CNN News Central starts right now.

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