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Pope Francis Dies at Age 88; Mourners Around the World Pay Tribute to Pope Francis. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired April 21, 2025 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:03]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news this morning, Pope Francis has died at the age of 88. The Vatican says his body will lie in state in St. Peter's Basilica as soon as Wednesday. The faithful can go to pay their respects. People have been gathering in St. Peter's Square all morning as an official nine-day mourning period gets underway.

We are told his body will be placed in a coffin at 2 p.m. Eastern today, observed by some family members, also Vatican officials.

Now, Pope Francis, of course, a very different kind of Pope. He was known as an outsider. He'd never lived or worked full-time in Rome prior to his years as the Pope. Once he assumed the papacy in 2013, he never returned, though, to his native Argentina.

As leader, he broke the mold as an outspoken advocate for the poor and for migrants as well. CNN's Nic Robertson is with us this morning to talk about really this moment and what happens now.

Good morning, Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yeah, good morning. And the moment is different for so many people because the Pope touched so many lives. CNN cameras have heard from somebody on the streets of the Democratic Republic of Congo who was saying they are struck with grief because the Pope loved their country.

And they said that because the Pope had come to the Democratic Republic of Congo while he was in ill health to somebody in South Korea, remembering back in 2014, the Sewol ferry disaster there where 304, many of them children, died in a ferry disaster.

Somebody we spoke to in South Korea saying they were touched by the fact that the Pope reached out and spoke to them in their grief at that time. Here in the U.K., somebody remarking on the fact that the Pope in his last speech yesterday put his energies into being on the balcony. He didn't make the speech himself. And going around the St. Peter's Square there, saying that this was very, very brave of him. People commenting on the fact that some of the Pope's last comments were to try to bring and remind people about bringing peace in Gaza, that there should be reconciliation, that the hostages should be released, that the war should end.

So everyone that's speaking about the Pope is coming from a different angle. You know, interesting that we've heard from the Irish Prime Minister, the Taoiseach there, speaking about how the world has lost a great leader. And it's that sense that I think brings everyone together today.

There's this remembrance, whether you're of the Catholic faith or outside of the faith, whether you were touched by his interfaith dialogue. This was something commented on by the Israeli President today, Isaac Herzog, talking about the value and importance of those bridges being built.

Pakistan's Prime Minister, Sharif, saying very much the same, that this interfaith dialogue, something that the Pope championed, was important for that commonality of humanity and understanding around the world.

So it doesn't matter where you are today. You're feeling this sense of loss. You're feeling this sense that we're in a different place, that this was an exceptional Pope, the first from Latin America, not educated as so many of the other Popes were in theology in Rome, but educated in his home country, the son of Italian immigrants, educated in Argentina.

Became, perhaps because of his upbringing, perhaps because of his understanding, a champion for the poor around the world. Remembered for his humanity, for bringing joy and hope to the poor. That's how the French President Emmanuel Macron put it today.

Somebody who is clearly going to be missed within the faith, but also missed, and I think President Trump today has spoken about rest in peace, and God bless all of those who found love in the Pope. It was Barack Obama who spoke about what the Pope brought to the world, trying to bring it to a better place, bring people to a better place.

So I think this is where the world stands today, in this moment of somber reflection, and of loss, and of somewhat grief, and a knowledge that this was a man who did what other leaders didn't do. He really strove for the poor in a way that so many people would feel is so much missing today.

[09:05:02]

BERMAN: Such great points, Nic Robertson. His impact and his loss felt well beyond the 1.5 billion Catholics in the world, and a friend told us last hour Pope Francis himself always said he wanted to be remembered as a good guy, and of course he will, but around the world he's also being remembered as a great man. Nic Robertson, thank you very much.

Kate?

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: To talk more about this, joining me right now is Mary Healy. She's a Professor of Scripture at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit. Dr. Healy, thank you for joining us this morning. Your reaction to

this morning, to the news, the impact that the Pope leaves, the memories you're holding on to this morning.

MARY HEALY, PROFESSOR OF SCRIPTURE, SACRED HEART MAJOR SEMINARY: Well, I think along with everyone in the Catholic world, the 1.3 billion Catholics today, there's a sense of grief. The Pope is a father figure. He is meant to be a visible father to the whole family of God, and even to the whole world, to people outside the Catholic Church.

There's a sense of loss and the sober reflection that he now stands before the judgment seat of God, so we pray for him as we pray for everyone who has passed away. At the same time, it's a good reminder that the Pope is not the head of the church, that Jesus Christ is the head of the church, and he's alive as we just celebrated yesterday on Easter.

And so there's a way that the church goes on, and there have been such an incredible variety of popes throughout history, and yet the Lord guides and protects his church, and our primary mission remains, which is to proclaim Christ to the world.

So we're thankful for all the ways that Pope Francis so greatly strove to do that and strove to do it in new ways to break old patterns that needed to be broken, and we pray now for the cardinals who are going to be gathering soon to elect a new pope.

BOLDUAN: And speaking of maybe the way you described it as one of the patterns that needed to be broken, I mean, he was seen as a more compassionate pope in many regards, one being when it comes to gay Catholics. I mean, that famous comment of his, I know people are thinking of today in 2013 when he said, if someone is gay and is searching for the Lord and has good will, then who am I to judge him? Why was that so important?

HEALY: Yes, well, that was probably one of the best known and perhaps most misunderstood comments of his papacy. When interpreted rightly, he's not saying anything different there from what the teaching of the church says, that God alone judges the human heart. We do not have the capacity to judge any person. We cannot see inside their heart. We cannot see how they have responded to God or not, and so we are not to judge persons.

Now, of course, Jesus did judge actions and behavior, and as Catholics, as Christians, we have to be faithful to his teaching, and Pope Francis certainly was in that regard. He did not in any way deny or dissent from church teaching regarding sexual morality, but he did in many ways remind people that we have to be absolutely welcoming, absolutely loving, reveal the compassion of Christ, the Good Shepherd, the mercy of God toward all sinners and toward all those who are on the margins, all those on the peripheries, all the downtrodden, the left out, the marginalized.

He really sought to model that, and I think it's an immensely important reality that the church does not always well remember. BOLDUAN: In 2016 as well, Pope Francis said that the Vatican should study the possibility of ordaining women as deacons, kind of answering a call that women particularly in the United States had been asking the church to address for decades. What has he meant for women and leadership in the church, and how long that road still is ahead?

HEALY: Yes, he -- I think he's done some significant things. He made a comment years ago when someone asked him about the role of women in the church, saying that women are the strawberries on the cake, and that was taken as a bit condescending by many women and others, but he -- since then he has not only spoken about the importance of the voices of women, the perspective, the unique gifts that women bring, but he's put actions behind that by appointing women to senior positions in the Vatican.

[09:10:15]

The matter of ordination is a very different matter, and the Catholic church -- the Pope himself has no authority actually to invent doctrine or to change doctrine. The role of the Pope is to interpret and confirm the doctrine of the church by interpreting it for the present situation, but he does not have any freedom to change doctrine.

So it's been the constant tradition of the church that from the teaching and example of Christ, women are not ordained to the priesthood. The diaconate is less clear an example, but never in the church's history have women been ordained to the diaconate, even though they did serve as deacons with a different sense in the early church.

So I think the more important thing is, what is the unique gifting that women can bring to the church today, and how can they be more involved in the church, both at the local level and the senior level, in a way that brings their feminine genius, as Pope John Paul II called it, to bear on major decisions and the major activities of the church.

BOLDUAN: Important conversation to be having on this day and going forward for sure. Dr. Mary Healy, thank you very much for coming in and sharing some time with us this morning.

John?

BERMAN: Of course, the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris right now, the bells ringing to honor Pope Francis. We continue to follow the breaking news coverage. His death at the age of 88. We're getting new reaction from around the world and new details about these really next several weeks in Vatican City.

And just in, the White House and Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, both responding for the first time since reports of a new Signal Chat, where he shared detailed military information with his wife and brother. Now, a key aide to Pete Hegseth questioned overnight whether he could survive in his job.

This morning, the secretary is blaming disgruntled former employees for some of this talk and some of these reports. Much more ahead.

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[09:17:30]

BERMAN: All right, the breaking news this morning, again, the world waking up to the news of the of Pope Francis the age of 88. You're looking at live pictures from Vatican City this morning.

People in St. Peter's Square, the faithful, they were there, of course, for Easter weekend. Today they are there to mourn the loss of the Holy Father.

Timothy Cardinal Dolan, the Archbishop of New York City, noted that today in Rome is known as the Monday of the Angels, the Monday following Easter Sunday known as the Monday of the Angels. That in itself, a fitting testament to the loss of Pope Francis.

President Trump, a short time ago, issued a statement. He said, "Rest in peace, Pope Francis, may God bless him and all who loved him."

Former President Barack Obama wrote, "Pope Francis was the rare leader who made us want to be better people. He shook us out of our complacency and reminded us that we are all bound by moral obligations to God and to one another."

Let's get to CNN's Jim Bittermann, who joins us now from Paris.

Jim, you noted that you have covered these interregnums, literally the period between the passing of a Pope and the naming of a new Pope since the passing of Pope Paul in the late 70s. Talk to us about what we will see now.

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think one of the things we're going to see is this period of interregnum. It's going to be, as far as news people are concerned, going to be a period of not very much news because basically what's going to happen during this period is the cardinals are going to be assembling in Rome, and the idea is that they are not going to be saying a lot about what their feelings are about who the next Pope should be. The Pope's body will lie in state in the Vatican for about four or six days until the burial takes place.

That's a period where you'll see thousands of people. With John Paul II, for example, we saw lines that were miles long, literally miles long, to get into the Vatican to see the Pope's body, and anybody can go if they want to get in line and stay in line. And then after that, the burial takes place.

There's this novendiale period, which is nine days that go before the conclave starts. The conclave starts about 15 days after the death. It could start earlier because one of the things that's happened is that because the Pope has died so soon after Easter, many of the cardinals, or at least some of them, may have been in Rome already, and as a consequence, this period of delay to get people assembled in Rome could be shorter, so they can decide to advance the conclave in order to shorten the interregnum period.

[09:20:15]

But then the conclave happens, and then everything is up for grabs because it depends how much time the cardinals are going to take, choosing, debating, talking about the role of the church, et cetera, et cetera. That could be very short. John Paul II, which is probably the period the most comparable to what's happening today, his conclave was just two days long, and then they picked Benedict after him.

So, it's a period that can be long or short, it can't go on too long, there is a limit as to how many days it can go on, but basically the Conclave will then choose the next pope.

John?

BERMAN: Jim Bittermann, our thanks to you. As you note, I mean a thousand plus years of tradition helped define this moment, but there have been tweaks over the generations, so not exactly clear how many days, but we will get a sense over these next several weeks.

With us now is Archbishop Thomas Wenski of the Archdiocese of Miami. Archbishop, thank you very much for being with us this morning, and we are sorry for the loss of the Holy Father. I know you and yours must be experiencing that in your own way this morning. You've noted that the legacy of Pope Francis will be defined by a series of firsts. What do you mean by that?

ARCHBISHOP THOMAS WENSKI, ARCHDIOCESE OF MIAMI: Well, he was the first Jesuit Pope, the first Pope from the Americas, the first Pope to address a joint session of Congress, so there are many things. Also, in fact, he was the first Pope that appointed women to high positions in the Vatican bureaucracy, positions that had previously been held by prevalence, by cardinals, and so he is certainly a Pope of firsts.

BERMAN: And I think it's embodied, I think, and I think it was intentional on his part as well, some of the things he said. He said, we live not in an era of change, but in a change of eras. What do you think he meant by that?

WENSKI: Well, I think if we look at the present situation of the world, and we notice the polarization that is not only happening in this country, but in countries throughout the world, I think the truth of what the Pope was saying is quite obvious. And in recent years, we've seen a discreditation of the institutions of society. The political institutions have been discredited because of corruption and other things.

It's the same true of academic institutions. The same is true also of church institutions. And so the Pope arrived on the scene as being a bit of an anti-institutionalist, and one of the ways he showed that was when he was elected Pope, he went back to the priest's hospice or hotel where he was staying at and paid his bill before returning back to the Vatican.

He also went and got the limousines, he'd get in the short, you know, small cars, you know, trying to certainly de-emphasize the institutional aspects of the church. And I think that was part of his appeal, especially to those that were somewhat alienated from the church. And I think the Pope's positions in this area brought many people to give the church and to give the papacy a fresh look.

BERMAN: Obviously, it's been an eventful stretch of time for you, Archbishop, just finishing up Easter week, obviously, to awaken this morning to this news. I know it must have been very emotional. I wonder how you will be talking to your flock in and around Miami over the next week or so.

WENSKI: Well, we will follow the events in Rome. When we know when the funeral will take place, we will probably schedule a similar mass here in the Archdiocese for the people of the Archdiocese to participate, at least from afar, but through the celebration of the mass and the laying of the rest of the Holy Father.

At the same time, we're offering prayers for the repose of his soul. And once we finish offering those prayers for the repose of his soul, we will be praying that the Holy Spirit guide the Cardinals as they meet and conclave to elect a new Pope. And so these days will be days filled with prayers. And it's quite significant that the Holy Father dies on Easter Monday, within the octave of Easter.

[09:25:09]

And this week is celebrated by the church as one, as a long proclamation of the Easter event on Sunday. So that's why we call it the octave of Easter.

John Paul II died on the last day of the octave of Easter, on the eve of Divine Mercy Sunday. And Pope Francis dies on the first day of the octave of Easter. And Easter is about the fact that death is conquered by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And that is our faith that God made us in his own image and likeness. And he didn't make us to die one day. He made us to live with him for all eternity.

And that's what we celebrate as we mourn the passing of the Pope. But again, it's not that surprising. He was 88 years old. It's like a -- when a parent or grandparent goes, we know that the time is near. But when the time comes, it always seems to come unexpectedly. But in that sense, we are consoled by our faith. And our faith tells us that we were created for a purpose, and that purpose is to live with God for all eternity.

BERMAN: Mourning his loss, celebrating his life, and looking toward the future with hope. Archbishop Thomas Wenski, we do appreciate your time and your words this morning. Thank you.

So, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth is responding for the first time since news broke of a new Signal chat where he shared sensitive information, this time with his wife and his brother. Reports it was on his personal phone. Who he says is to blame for this, this morning?

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