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Hegseth Blames Media, "Disgruntled" Former Employees; Calls New Allegations "Anonymous Smears" And "Old News"; Sources: Hegseth Shared Yemen Strike Details In Second Group Chat; Hegseth Slams Media, Former Employees Amid New Signal Scandal. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired April 21, 2025 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:31:30]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, we do have breaking news this morning. Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth responding. The embattled Defense Secretary just spoke, seeming to attack some of his closest former advisers and the media after we learned overnight that he shared detailed military plans in a second signal chat. This one included his wife and his brother. Let's get right to CNN's Natasha Bertrand in Washington for the latest on all these very new, very significant developments.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, John. Yes, we confirmed last night that Secretary Hegseth did have a second signal chat that included his brother, his wife, and his lawyer, in which he disclosed sensitive details about U.S. Military operations against the Houthis in Yemen. This was around the same time as that first signal chat that was disclosed last month when the editor of the Atlantic was accidentally included in a signal chat that Hegseth had with other cabinet officials.

This, of course, is different. It was on his personal phone, and we are told that this was a group chat that was set up as part of his confirmation process so he could kind of strategize with his closest allies. But he continued using that chat, we are told, after he was confirmed as Secretary of Defense. And ultimately, he did end up sharing information about military plans with the people on that chat, many of whom, including his wife, did not have an obvious need to know about these military operations.

Now, Hegseth did issue his first public comments about this just a few minutes ago from the White House at the Easter egg roll.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: This is what the media does. They take anonymous sources from disgruntled former employees, and then they try to slash and burn people and ruin their reputations. Not going to work with me because we're changing the Defense Department, putting the Pentagon back in the hands of war fighters. And anonymous smears from disgruntled former employees on old news. It doesn't matter.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERTRAND: So two things, John. First, neither Parnell, his spokesperson, Sean Parnell, his spokesperson, nor Hegseth there are actually denying the substance of the story that he did have this Signal Group chat that included his wife, his brother and his lawyer. They are instead blaming it on disgruntled former employees, which is the second point here. Dan Caldwell and Darren Solnick, two of the officials that Hegseth fired last week, they actually were some of Hegseth's closest advisers over a decade. And one of the officials that left the Pentagon last week, John Ullyot, who was until last month Hegseth's top spokesperson, he is saying publicly in a new op ed that he wrote in Politico last night that it's been a month of total chaos at the Pentagon and he said it's hard to see Defense Secretary Hegseth remaining in his role for much longer. John?

BERMAN: Yes, that statement from the secretary right there, in the immortal words of Ben Bradle and all the president's men, a classic non-denial denial right there at the White House. Natasha Bertrand, thank you very much. Kate?

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Just looking down as he said returning the Pentagon to warfighters, John Ullyot actually said in that in the past month what they have been going through is not returning the Pentagon to war fighting, but just says the Pentagon focuses no longer on war fighting but on endless drama. That from his former spokesperson.

Joining us right now to talk more about this is Jane Harman, the former ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee. Thank you so much for being here.

I mean, I recall you saying after the first Signal scandal broke that it should remind everyone that complacency invites catastrophe. And now news of a new Signal Group chat and new controversy. What's your reaction to this?

[09:35:13]

JANE HARMAN, (D) FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Well, this would be a good news day to accept Hegseth's resignation. I mean, all the news is about this extraordinary pope that we just lost, and so it might be buried. I can't imagine how he survives this. His key staff, as you just reported, has been fired by him. Some of them were on the second call. There are rumors that there may have been as many as 20 calls on unsecured platforms.

I mean, that is -- I don't know what you call it. Tradecraft 00.1. You don't do this. And I can't imagine that Congress will defend him at this point. I wonder if the president will defend him. He's embarrassing the president. So, I think there are two questions. One is when he resigns. But the second one is who will accept the job?

Who is really competent given this history and given the chaos at the Pentagon. Let's just look at what Marco Rubio said. He just said that this draft executive order taking away half his department, this draft executive order was in the news the last two days is fake news. So, what this looks like is cabinet secretaries don't make decisions. They are made somewhere else. Project 2025 or who knows. And I can't imagine that the capable people out there who are Republicans, who could run the Pentagon would want the job.

BOLDUAN: One thing we know, just the latest this morning is coming from the White House press secretary saying that the President still has full faith in Pete Hegseth. We know with the President that can change quickly. But that is the first response from them on this latest Signal chat.

On top of this, you have a top adviser until basically days ago of Pete Hegseth, a former Pentagon press secretary for Hegseth, calling this whole thing a month of chaos this whole thing a month of chaos. This op ed that Natasha Bertrand was just referencing. And two parts I want to pull out. Number one, saying it's hard to see Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth remaining in his role much longer to the point that you were making. And also this even strong backers of the secretary like me. This is from John Ullyot.

Me must admit the last month has been a full-blown meltdown at the Pentagon and is becoming a real problem for the administration. And just from your perspective, what does it do when a secretary's longtime adviser, his deputy chief of staff, the chief of staff to the deputy secretary of defense, they all get pushed out of the Pentagon in the midst of all of this?

HARMAN: Well, I recently chaired the Commission on National Defense Strategy. We said unanimously for Democrats, for Republicans that this is the most dangerous time in terms of national security since 1945. If I were any one of America's enemies, looking at our country, I would think this is my opportunity to do any number of things. Think massive cyber-attack in the U.S. I worry a lot that we could have a cyber 911 any day.

We've already in the Pentagon, fired the well-qualified 34-year in the military, Four Star head of the National Security Agency who also headed U.S. Cyber Command. Just pick that one thing. And most of the qualified women at the top too who are doing excellent jobs including being four star members of the military as well. Got to put that in.

And so, if I'm China, Russia, anywhere, I think I've got open season on the U.S. and look at what Russia is doing in Ukraine. Russia is toying with the United States and obviously toying with Ukraine. And it is an absolute tragedy to see a place where, which was invaded in violation of international law after Russia promised repeatedly to respect its sovereignty suffering this way. Ukraine is still fighting back. Europe is going to step up and fight for Ukraine. But now that we have a casual comment from, I think it's our Vice President that we may not continue to pay attention to Ukraine.

I think that's hugely damaging and really threatens U.S. National Security in another way.

BOLDUAN: Yeah. The Secretary of State Marco Rubio saying on Friday, if it is not possible to end the war in Ukraine, we need to move on. And then more from there. Jane, it's great to see you. Thank you so much for coming in. As always, I really appreciate your time coming up for us. We are continuing to follow the breaking news out of the Vatican. Pope Francis has died. We are also getting a new sense of what comes now, what comes next.

His body will be laid in a coffin at 8:00 p.m. local time, 2:00 p.m. Eastern. You have new details and reaction coming in. We'll bring it all to you. Coming up next.

[09:44:37]

KATE BOLDUAN: Pope Francis will be remembered for many accomplishments, several of which happened long before he was even elected pope. The pontiff, remember, was the first Latin American Pope. Francis was the first Latin American pontiff and the first non- European elected Pope in nearly 1300 years. CNN's Christopher Lamb has more on the Pope's roots.

[09:45:06]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): A Pope from the ends of the earth. Francis was the first Latin American pontiff, the first from Argentina. A native of Buenos Aires, much of his life spent in the Argentine capital, shaping him as a future pope. Born Jorge Mario Bergoglio, the grandson of Italian immigrants, he had an ordinary childhood, growing up playing soccer, developing a love of literature and going to school to study chemistry. In a memoir, he writes, he had a childhood infatuation with a little girl in Flores, the pope sending her a letter with a promise.

AMALIA DAMONTE (voiceover): He said to me, if I don't marry you, I'll become a priest.

LAMB (voicover): Francis, true to his word, first training for the priesthood and then joining the Jesuit order. Quickly identified as a rising star. He was chosen to lead the Jesuits in Argentina at the young age of 36. It was a time of turmoil in his country during the brutal military dictatorship. Bergoglio was accused of not doing enough to help two Jesuits kidnapped by the regime. He denied this and insisted helped people escape. But disagreements over his leadership style saw the Jesuits send Bergoglio into exile to this residence in Cordoba, central Argentina.

He went through a dark night of the soul and later admitted to making many mistakes. A lesson in humility. Eventually, he was tapped to become a bishop and cardinal in Buenos Aires. He focused his time among the poorest communities.

OSCAR CRESPO, FRIEND OF POPE FRANCIS (voiceover): He told me clearly, look, I said, I'm going to be a priest because my goal is to be at the service of the people. That's why I love going to the slums. That's why I'm going to the heart of the country.

LAMB (voicover): Adopting a simple lifestyle similar to the one he had as pope. Never owning a car and using the subway to get around. He wanted a church open to all and focused on those on the margins. In the annual run up to Easter, he would often wash the feet of prisoners, something he continued as pontiff.

ELISABETTA PIQUE, POPE FRANCIS' BIOGRAPHER: His legacy is about this matter of a church open, a church inclusive, a church that is for all, not of a little group of perfect people. But this is a pope to speak to everybody and to speak specially to the people, to the sinners.

LAMB (voicover): Despite his position, Francis tried not to take himself too seriously. Loving to crack a joke, whether with world leaders or groups of children.

MARIA ELENA BERGOGLIO, SISTER OF POPE FRANCIS, SPEAKER IN 2013: He has a great sense of humor. I think he got that from my father when he had to be firm for something. He was, but with good humor.

LAMB (voicover): But relations with his homeland weren't always easy. He never managed to visit home. After becoming pope in 2013, he was unafraid to criticize those in power and wasn't always popular with Argentina's politicians.

The first Latin American pope chosen to lead the Catholic Church leaves a lasting impression. A pontiff who came from the ends of the earth and called on the church to go out to the peripheries. What he began in Argentina, he continued during his papacy. Christopher Lamb, CNN Christopher, thank you.

BOLDUAN: Christopher, thank you much for that. Coming up still for us, we'll continue to follow the news coming out of Rome, and also this big tech taking center stage at the White House for the annual Easter Egg Roll after the White House solicited event sponsors for the first time.

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[09:53:14]

BERMAN: So very shortly, the president and first lady will host the annual Easter Egg Roll at the White House. This year, it's expected to look and feel different big tech sponsors bankrolling the celebration. Let's get right to CNN's Betsy Cline at the White House. So explain that, Betsy.

BETSY KLEIN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE PRODUCER: Yes, John, this all started back in March when I obtained this 10-page pitch document from an outside event production company called Harbinger. And among the opportunities for sponsors ranging from $75,000 all the way up to $200,000, naming rights for key areas, sponsor logos on event signage, custom-branded baskets, snacks, beverages, or souvenirs, and mentions, an official event communication and social media post. It was really unclear at the time what this was going to look like. But now obviously we are getting a much better picture.

There is a lot of big tech companies, YouTube, Amazon, Meta, and other associations. The Toy association, the Produce association signed up to sponsor this event. So there's an Amazon reading Nook, a YouTube stage, the Meta photo tent. You can also ring the bell at the New York Stock Exchange photo op.

Now all the money raised by Harbinger, John, is going to go to the White House Historical Association. Anything left over is going to go toward future White House events on the South Lawn like Halloween as well as the Fourth of July.

BERMAN: Are there any rules behind this kind of sponsorship and promotion on White House grounds?

KLEIN: Yes, there are. There are regulations that specifically prohibit the use of public office for private gain. And I talked to a number of ethics experts, lawyers, former White House officials on both sides of the aisle who are really shocked that this document was allowed to go forward and that the brands and logos that we are seeing today on the South Lawn are even taking place.

[09:55:07]

I talked to Richard Painter, who was a lawyer in the Bush administration. He said this never would have passed muster in his day. And we're also seeing this Trump White House openly flout rules and norms here on the South Lawn. We saw the president selling Teslas last month. He also hosted the Republican National Convention just steps up behind me back in 2020.

BERMAN: John, of course, that is correct. Betsy Klein at the White House. You help break this story with that solicitation memo you're holding in your hands right there coming to fruition today, right behind you. Great to have you there, Betsy. Thank you.

BOLDUAN: I will say, controversy aside, I always marvel that parents can get their children to dress up in such nice clothing and keep it like that at this event. I mean, my daughters would be demanding sweatpants.

BERMAN: Try to put a little boy in a collared shirt, right?

BOLDUAN: It's like WrestleMania. Anyway, thank you all so much for join us today. The breaking news coming out of the Vatican and now what comes in the nine days of mourning after Pope Francis passing. Much more of the breaking news will continue. This is CNN News Central, The Situation Room is up next.

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