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Stocks Tumbling; Interview With Former U.S. National Security Adviser John Bolton; Pete Hegseth Facing Another Signal Scandal; Remembering Pope Francis. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired April 21, 2025 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:01:07]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Remembering the life and legacy of Pope Francis. As Catholics mourn his passing and world leaders reflect on his global impact, the Vatican prepares for the conclave that will elect a new pope.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Plus, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth yet again mired in another controversy involving a group chat on Signal, this time accused of sharing sensitive military attack plans on a personal phone with his wife, lawyer and brother.

And a legal battle over President Trump's immigration crackdown, the Supreme Court ordering the White House pump the brakes on some deportations, as the White House argues it can use a wartime authority to remove migrants.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: And happening now, we have a live look at St. Peter's Basilica as the world is remembering Pope Francis.

Here in minutes, the pope's family and senior Vatican officials will gather as the pontiff is laid in his coffin to lie in state. Just hours before his death, tens of thousands of people were on hand as the pope delivered what would become his final Easter blessing, after weeks of battling illness, the 88-year-old then taking one last ride in the iconic Popemobile.

Francis is known for breaking barriers inside the church, the first Latin American pontiff leading more than 1.4 billion Catholics through a pandemic, all the while being a champion for inclusion, the climate and immigration, and, in his final speech, unrelenting in his call for peace, the pontiff urging for wars in Gaza, Ukraine and Sudan to end.

Let's go live now to Vatican City, where we have CNN's Ben Wedeman following all of the developments here.

And, Ben, just like the pope's leadership, in the next few days, we will be seeing even more traditions broken.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, these are traditions that are very much part of the history of the Vatican, but certainly what we have seen is that Pope Francis has sort of introduced changes even to the timing of how a pope is buried, how he is -- and then the conclave is held.

But we understand that, within an hour, his body will be taken to the chapel in the Casa Santa Marta, which is the guesthouse of the Vatican, where Pope Francis stayed in a two-room very simple suite on the second floor, and that is where he passed away at 7:35 local time this morning.

Now, in the chapel, the chief Vatican medical officer will inspect his body, try to determine the cause of death. And, at that event, there will be senior Vatican officials, as well as some members of Pope Francis' family.

The after tomorrow his body will lie in state in St. Peter's Basilica. And that will be open to the public. Now, according to the time frame that has been set, within five to seven days, his funeral will be held. After that, there will be nine days of prayers and services to commemorate his life.

And 15 to 20 days after his death, the conclave will begin. Now, they need to bring all the cardinals from around the world. I believe there is more than 250. They need to come here first for the funeral and then for the conclave itself.

And, according to the rules laid down by Pope Francis, within 13 days they, must decide. They must elect a new pope, because there have been conclaves in the past that went on for months and months, one more than a year. So they want a quick transition to the new pope -- Brianna.

[13:05:05]

KEILAR: Ben Wedeman live for us in St. Peter's Square, thank you for the latest there.

And, before Rome, there was the boy from Buenos Aires who dreamed a priesthood. He would go on to become an archbishop then a cardinal, before becoming the pope. But, along the way he never seemed to lose sight of his humble beginnings, at one point as archbishop choosing to live in a simple apartment, rather than a palace.

CNN's Patrick Oppmann is with us now for more on how the Latin community is honoring him today.

Tell us how, Patrick.

PATRICK OPPMANN, CNN HAVANA BUREAU CHIEF: Yes, of course, Pope Francis was the first Latin American pope.

And such an important development to have a pope from this region, overwhelmingly Catholic region, that felt slighted for years since modern history. The Vatican tended to look to Europe for -- when it came to choosing popes.

And so it was a surprise that Pope Francis came from Argentina. Before becoming a priest, he was actually a bouncer in a bar. He was someone, when he began working as a priest, worked in some of Buenos Aires' poorest neighborhoods, slums, during a time of military dictatorship and financial collapse.

And that experience, where he was rubbing shoulders with common people, very poor people, never seemed to leave him. He was always advocating for the poor. And that simplicity that he brought with him to the papacy really shocked so many people.

I mean, there are stories about how he made fun of himself as an Argentine, saying that many people expect him to declare himself as Jesus the Second, not Francis the First, because Argentines, of course, are known for having something of an ego.

And when he began pushing for the U.S. and Cuba to restore diplomatic relations after 50 years, he was instrumental in that, actually hosting some of the secret talks in the Vatican. And when he finally met then-Cuban President Raul Castro, Raul Castro came out with his very uncharacteristic -- uncharacteristic remark where he said that he was considering praying again.

The pope -- the pope had just touched him in a way that he hadn't expected, certainly out of character for the leader of a government that had cracked down on the Catholic Church for so many years.

But that was Pope Francis' legacy, that he surprised people, that he caught them off guard, that he managed to create bridges. And he never forgot the poor. He never forgot migrants. And until his final days, he was advocating -- something that's not very popular in Europe or in the U.S. right now, but advocating for migrants' rights, advocating for treating migrants decently, no matter their immigration status.

And that is the message that was very popular in Latin America and one he carried with him until his final days.

KEILAR: Yes, so interesting.

Patrick Oppmann, thank you for taking us through that. We appreciate it -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: The bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Washington remembered Pope Francis today as a humble shepherd, that moniker on full display from the very beginning of his papacy.

Just a day after being introduced as pope, Francis revisited the church-run boarding house he had been staying in to pay his bill in person. He would later use his time as pontiff to set up dorms, showers, even a barbershop for homeless people at the Vatican.

With us now to discuss the legacy of Pope Francis is Bishop Robert Barron of the Diocese of Winona-Rochester in Minnesota. He's the founder of Word on Fire Catholic Ministries and the host of "Bishop Robert Barron Presents."

Bishop, thank you so much for being with us.

You were appointed by Pope Francis. You met with him several times. I wonder, what was he like in person? What memories stay with you?

BISHOP ROBERT BARRON, DIOCESE OF WINONA-ROCHESTER, MINNESOTA: Yes, I found him a very charming person.

I met him on a number of occasions. And the synod had two sessions last October and the previous October. So I was with him really every day during that month of October. I always find him -- found him very warm, very generous, funny. I would speak to him in Spanish.

And there was always a joke involved or a pleasantry of some kind. He also had an extraordinary memory. He wouldn't see someone like me every day, and he had a keen sense of who I was and knew people's names. I was always very impressed by that, but a very kind, good- hearted person, very approachable.

So, everything that you hear about his care for the poor and the marginalized, I think that was the natural extension of his personal style.

SANCHEZ: Talk to us about the impact he's had on the church, because he became pope at a very interesting time.

BARRON: He did indeed.

One way I think about it is, Saint Pope John Paul II put a huge stress on the call to sanctity, to heroic virtue, so John Paul emphasizing the moral life and the demand of it and so on. And Francis would have shared that, of course. He never changed anything in the church's moral teaching.

I think what was different in Francis was the great stress upon divine mercy. He knew that, yes, we're called to heroic sanctity, but, if we fall short of that, where do we go? What do we do? And he presented to the world the face of God's mercy.

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Very early on, he said the church is like a field hospital, which is a very interesting image. It means there are a lot of walking wounded around. And the church is there to receive and to welcome and to heal. And I think that's a major part of his legacy. I would read him together with John Paul II that way.

SANCHEZ: Fascinating.

And, Bishop, I wonder what you think about the course that he has set for the Catholic Church, because, obviously, in the next month or so, there's going to be a conclave. And the next pontiff will have to decide whether to continue in that vein of seeing perhaps a different vision of the church.

BARRON: I think anyone elected to the papacy, they have this responsibility to proclaim the Gospel, the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, the great doctrines and teachings of the church. That doesn't change. So it's not like a political arrangement where we go from left now to

right. The pope is always the pope when he's declaring Jesus Christ to the world. There's always differences in emphasis and style, to be sure. And you had that with Francis. You had a shift from Pope Benedict's style, which is more austere, more intellectual.

Francis had a more kind of freewheeling, more personal style. So we will see with the new pope. But I would try to discourage the view that we're going to be lurching from one political perspective to another. The pope in season and out declares Jesus. And, sometimes, the culture is open to that. Sometimes, it isn't. But the pope's job is to be faithful to it, as I think Francis was.

SANCHEZ: Pope Francis also spent his final days celebrating Holy Week. He visited with inmates. He called for an immediate cease-fire in Gaza. I wonder what you make of how he spent his final days.

BARRON: I found it very moving, actually, because we all followed the time he was in the hospital. We're watching all these weeks go by. And then, when he finally got out, we were relieved. And we heard the doctors say to him, understandably, look, take two months and don't do much and stay in bed and don't meet with people.

So when we started seeing him come out and visit the prisoners, as you say, and to be in the Popemobile and to be giving blessings, I thought he's a hard man to keep down. And it's -- that's his style. He always wanted to be out with the people.

And I think he decided, all right, I'm at the end of my life. I'm not going to go out just lying in bed. I'm going to go out doing my job and being the pope.

So I found that very moving. And the fact that we heard him say -- last thing I heard him say was that kind of strained (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE) wishing good Easter to everybody. And, by the way, what a wonderful final message for a pope.

The pope's job is to declare the resurrection, which is what he was doing really with his last breath.

SANCHEZ: Bishop Robert Barron, very much appreciate your time. Thanks for joining us.

BARRON: God bless you.

SANCHEZ: Still ahead this hour on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, we will have much more on the life and legacy of Pope Francis.

But, first, markets tumbling as President Trump ramps up his attacks on Fed Chair Jerome Powell, calling him a -- quote -- "major loser."

Plus, sources telling CNN that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth shared military attack plans in a second Signal chat, one that actually included members of his family. We will discuss in just moments.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [13:17:49]

SANCHEZ: We're following breaking news on Wall Street, with stocks tumbling right now, all three indices showing sharp declines today.

Let's go live to CNN business and politics correspondent Vanessa Yurkevich.

Vanessa, walk us through what's behind this decline.

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Well, markets opened rattled this morning because Beijing was essentially putting pressure on their trading partners not to work with the U.S. on essentially not trading with China any longer.

And then, after that, there was a TRUTH Social post by President Trump. That came out, which sort of rattled markets again. And that's why you're seeing that steep decline, the Dow -- Dow -- wow, Dow down 1,100 points now.

But you can see the post right there where he's essentially calling on the Federal Reserve to cut rates. This is something that the president really has no power doing. And when he talks about Mr. Too Late, he's talking about the Federal Reserve chair, Jerome Powell.

Over the last week or so, he's really ratcheted up his pressure on the Fed chair, essentially calling for his termination, saying, if I could terminate him at some point, I will.

He -- the president appointed Jerome Powell in his first term. President Biden re-upped him for his second term, and, ultimately, President Trump there, though, saying that he has the power to remove the Fed chair, Jerome Powell. But that is not necessarily the case here.

And there's some legal precedent for that says that the president does not have the authority to remove the chair of the Federal Reserve unless there are three sort of different qualifications, inefficiency, neglect of duty, malfeasance of office.

So that is why there's so much question about whether or not the president has the power to make this move. But this is why you see markets rattled right now, because the Federal Reserve is an independent body from the government, and it acts sort of as a safety net for the U.S. economy.

And when you have the president threatening to remove the Federal Reserve chair or trying to direct the Federal Reserve to make any sort of monetary policy, that rattles investors and traders, who see this Federal Reserve Bank as sort of an independent catch-all for potential issues with the economy.

[13:20:02]

And one of those issues, Boris, as you know, that is playing out right now, is this global trade war. Many economists believe that this trade war, as it escalates, will increase prices for everyday consumers. And the Federal Reserve really is the sort of counteractive in that, the body that can help try to bring down prices if that were to happen, so traders, investors nervous about this language that they're seeing from the president right now.

The next time the Fed will meet is in May, and that is when they will make that policy decision about interest rates. But it is up to the Federal Reserve. It is not up to the president of the United States to make those directives, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Vanessa Yurkevich, thank you so much for the update -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Today, we are learning some new details following reports of Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth sharing some detailed military plans in a second Signal group chat that included his wife, a lawyer, and his brother.

Multiple sources telling CNN Hegseth revealed strike plans against Houthi targets in Yemen, similar to what was shared in that other group chat, which came to light after the editor of "The Atlantic" was mistakenly added to it.

We have also learned that Hegseth directly addressed the matter with President Trump during a phone call last night. Earlier today, the president defended Hegseth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He's doing a great job. It's just fake news. They just brings up stories. I guess it sounds like disgruntled employees. You know, he was put there to get rid of a lot of bad people, and that's what he's doing. So you don't always have friends when you do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: The revelation of a second Signal chat emerging as some of Hegseth's closest advisers, several of whom were fired last week, are warning that the Pentagon has become dysfunctional under Hegseth's leadership.

Both Hegseth and White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt railed against those accusations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: This is what the media does. They take anonymous sources from disgruntled former employees, and then they try to slash and burn people and ruin their reputations.

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president stands strongly behind Secretary Hegseth, who is doing a phenomenal job leading the Pentagon. And this is what happens when the entire Pentagon is working against you and working against the monumental change that you are trying to implement. (END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: With us now to talk more about this is John Bolton. He served as national security adviser during President Trump's first term.

How bad do you think this is, I wonder, having his wife, his brother, his lawyer included on what sources describe as military plans of these Houthi strikes, similar to what came to light during that first Signal chat scandal?

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, I think after people got over the disbelief at the first Signal chat group, it's no surprise there are others.

What makes this one worse and different is that it's kind of a friends and family Signal chat group, none of whom have any need to know what's been conveyed about potential strikes in Yemen before they actually happen. I mean, it speaks to a lack of judgment on Hegseth's part.

And when you look at the controversy over the people recently being fired, by the way, all of whom are people he hired within the past 90 days, it really gives the picture of a secretary of defense who's a lightweight, a dilettante. And that's not the kind of person you want as a secretary of defense under any circumstances, but particularly not in the challenging environment we find ourselves in today.

KEILAR: Let's talk about some of those top aides who are gone, I think some of whom, were it not for Hegseth or someone like Hegseth being in the position he's in, would not have had the positions they had at the Pentagon, but senior adviser Dan Caldwell, Deputy Chief of Staff Darin Selnick, Chief of Staff to the Deputy Secretary of Defense Colin Carroll.

What's the effect of departures at a high level like that?

BOLTON: Well, as I say, I think he was responsible for hiring all of them. I mean, I think he had connections with them. He also lost his own chief of staff, who is either being fired or moved somewhere else in the Defense Department.

I think what it says to the rest of that very big building and its partners around the world, that they're just not serious in the secretary of defense's office. They don't have their act together managing a very small group of people. How's somebody like that ever going to lead the entire Pentagon?

It's what you get when you don't really care about qualifications for jobs like that, when you're not picking people who are experienced, when your major qualification is personal fealty to Donald Trump. That's what he's got in Hegseth. That's why he's sticking with him. But it's not what you need to do the job.

KEILAR: His chief of staff resigning from his position. We're waiting to see if he lands somewhere else at the Pentagon. But in a Politico op-ed, John Ullyot, the former chief Pentagon

spokesman who resigned last week, said the dysfunction is now a major distraction and that it's hard to see how Hegseth remains in his role for much longer.

[13:25:07]

Do you think that Hegseth should step down?

BOLTON: Well, by the way, Ullyot is the fifth person in his inner circle who's now resigned.

I think Hegseth should resign. I don't think he's going to. He may leave at some point because I think he's used up his bank account with Donald Trump. Trump doesn't want to have to waste his resources defending his people. And that's now what he's doing on Hegseth.

But I think Trump is bound and determined not to show weakness, which is what he's worried he would do if he fires Hegseth or anybody else. So I think Hegseth has a shelf life of undetermined length, but it's not going to be much longer, would be my guess, three months, four months, something like that likely.

KEILAR: You hear the talking point. We just heard it from Hegseth, Leavitt and Trump himself, which is that they're blaming people who are just upset that he's trying to implement institutional change.

What do you think of that argument?

BOLTON: Well, again, these five people are all people he brought in and who have said they're in favor of the change that he's trying to make. They just don't think he's qualified to do it.

I think it's a very weak response, when Hegseth can't even manage and hold together the people he himself is responsible for hiring. It's sort of like the same problem his boss seems to have.

KEILAR: John Bolton, always great to have you. Thanks so much for being with us.

BOLTON: Glad to be with you.

KEILAR: And next: Catholics around the world are mourning the passing of Pope Francis. When we come back, we're going to talk to a survivor of clergy sexual abuse, an openly gay Catholic who developed a close friendship with the pontiff.

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