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Pope Francis Dies On Easter Monday At Age 88; Alexandra Ribe, Attorney For Kilmar Abrego Garcia, Discusses Efforts For His Release, Return To U.S.; Engine Fire Forces Delta Passengers To Evacuate Plane In Orlando. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired April 21, 2025 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[13:31:33]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: As we give you a live look at St. Peter's Square in Vatican City, the popes remains are going to undergo what's called the Rite of Certification of Death in just a few minutes and then he'll be laid in a coffin.

Our next guest remembers the pontiff as a compassionate listener. A survivor of priests' sex abuse, Juan Carlos Cruz spoke with him for more than three hours back in 2018.

And Cruz wrote in "The National Catholic Reporter" how Pope Francis raised him from despair.

He writes, quote, "I do feel like Lazarus. I didn't have much will to keep on living, let alone fight for others. Pope Francis pulled me out of the grave, and I will forever be grateful."

Juan Carlos Cruz joins us now. He's an advocate for church sex abuse victims and helped spark an investigation in Chile that led to 34 bishops offering their resignations.

Juan Carlos, thanks so much for being with us.

You write about meeting Pope Francis during a battle that took years for you, with so many church leaders who tried to silence you and other survivors about the horrors of abuse.

I wonder what it was like to meet Pope Francis back in 2018, and what you shared with him.

JUAN CARLOS CRUZ, ABUSE SURVIVOR WHO DEVELOPED FRIENDSHIP WITH POPE FRANCIS: Well, Boris, thank you so much.

And, Brianna, hi.

I -- it's a really sad day. Because you're right, what I -- what I wrote is exactly how I still feel. And I feel incredibly privileged that after that first meeting in 2018, we remained friends. And -- and first I started visiting him every month, and then I moved

to Europe. So now I visited him every two weeks, and we -- I spent Christmas with him. We spent each other's birthdays together. And we talked on the phone all the time.

It's -- it's -- it's an incredible human being, pope, Catholic, humanitarian, where -- and what he preached about the church being for everybody is -- is exactly how he lived and what he thought. So, yes.

SANCHEZ: And how would you say that, specifically on the issue of child sex abuse, Pope Francis changed the church and allowed for people like you to be more comfortable in telling their stories.

CRUZ: Yes. Well, there's still a lot to do, Boris, in terms of sexual abuse in the church in society, but specifically in the church.

But Pope Francis had the -- the guts and the courage to name things by their name, things that were forbidden to speak, right, the abuse of priests, the cover up of bishops, of cardinals.

And he appointed me as his advisor and put me on the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors, where there's people who really care about this, who -- and he really has made a difference providing safe spaces and -- and prevention.

And now we're working on -- on reparation, which is also very important, if you ever can be repaired of this.

[13:34:53]

But -- but, Boris, with the death of Pope Francis, this doesn't end. This -- sometimes at the Vatican, they get angry when I say this is the -- the tip of the iceberg.

Because there's countries where bishops tell you, well, you know, here, it's not a problem here. And you've just talked with four victims from that country or that diocese.

And so there's still a lot a long way to go. But thanks to the courage of Pope Francis, we are on the right path. We still need to do more, though.

SANCHEZ: I do wonder, as there will be this conclave beginning in May to determine the next pontiff and the future of the church, I wonder what your message would be to the Vatican.

CRUZ: Yes, the message would be, hopefully, we keep the road of Pope Francis in a moment where this giant of the church, like Pope Francis left us.

But he didn't leave us. He left this legacy. He left this legacy, in my case, for abuse. But he left a legacy for -- for immigrants. Now that Trump wants to get rid of, inhumanely of -- of -- of immigrants.

Pope Francis is speaking up. Speaking up for the poor, speaking up for health care for -- for people who don't have access, not only in the states, everywhere. Those are the messages that we need as a church, I feel.

And the next pope needs to follow Pope Francis because that doesn't end with Pope Francis. Quite the opposite. It's gotten worse. And we need to keep doing it.

SANCHEZ: You mentioned some of the issues on which he was outspoken. He also famously criticized laws criminalizing homosexuality. I wonder what your conversations with him were like on that issue.

CRUZ: Well, it was very incredible because, when I spoke up with -- or spoke with him the first time in 2018, he knew, obviously, that the cardinal in Chile, where I -- where I'm from, told me -- told the newspaper, "Juan Carlos Cruz, I don't think he's a victim because he's gay. He might have liked it."

Imagine how that feels. And so it really hurt. And it really -- it couldn't be more awful, right, for someone, anywhere to say that.

But Pope Francis told me, "Juan Carlos, the fact that you're gay doesn't matter. God loves you. God made you like this. And the pope loves you. And you're -- you're fine. Don't. Don't worry."

And I remember CNN putting out breaking news about this. And -- and -- and the -- and I felt really bad because I thought, OK, I, you know, said something that maybe he wanted to keep between us.

And so I called him. I said, "Holy Father, I said this, and now they're saying"" -- he's like, "Ah, no, let them say it. And I'm -- the Vatican will not say anything to the contrary. So don't worry."

And I thought, well, that -- that's a courageous man. That's a great man. And -- and when we -- I asked him a few years ago if he could speak out against the criminalization of homosexuality, because Uganda was putting out these draconian laws where there's the death penalty for gay people, et cetera.

So he told me, "I'll do it." So I helped him write some talking points, and -- and he had an A.P. interview coming up, and -- and he said it there.

And, you know, I'll be forever grateful for all the good things that he's done for -- for the world.

Because then, in Portugal, when he met the -- the young people, he said, "The church belongs to Todos, Todos, Todos, to everyone, everyone, everyone. Everybody belongs."

Not this church where they try to, because you're this, you're not allowed, you're that, you're not allowed. You're this, you're -- the church is for everybody.

And -- and that's how we need to remember him. And that's the message we need to continue.

And I'm going to keep fighting for Pope Francis and his spirit and what he's done in his memory to make it better for people who have been abused, but also for immigrants, for the poor, for -- for everybody that that he touched.

SANCHEZ: Juan Carlos, I hear the emotion in your voice. What would you say that the world should know about Pope Francis that isn't obvious, that we didn't see in headlines?

CRUZ: That I think Pope Francis was so transparent that people saw really who he was. He had no filter. He just said things. He was courageous.

The role of women in the church. He wanted to enhance it. He named what they called prefix ministers that are women. Governor of the Vatican, that's a woman. I mean, with the LGBT community.

[13:40:02]

I took some trans people to meet him, and they told him their stories, and he was almost in tears.

I've -- I've seen him with the poor, with -- with the people in prisons, with immigrants, how hurt he's been with -- with not only in the states, but the -- the reaction towards immigration around the world that's getting worse by the day.

I go to Ukraine every month for a week to -- to help and -- with the children, et cetera. His support for that, for the horror of the war in Ukraine, the war, the bombings in Gaza, that horrendous death, the -- and he spoke till the end about that.

And so, but at the same time, Boris, I'm going to remember, his great sense of humor, you know, his dad jokes and -- and how we spent the afternoon talking in his little living room outside his bedroom.

And -- and we talked and he joked, and he told me stories about when he was young and in Argentina and -- and, you know, interested in everything I did, calling me during the pandemic to recommend books and movies.

Because I was living -- I was in Philadelphia on the 37th floor, and he said, "No, you can't be alone. I'm going to call you every now and then to" -- and he called me religiously, like every 10 days or every week.

That's -- and he didn't only do it with me. I can assure you, there's tons of people around the world that -- that have felt that -- that same thing from him.

SANCHEZ: Juan Carlos Cruz, it's so fascinating to hear your experience with Pope Francis. We're so sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing it with us.

CRUZ: Thank you. Thank you, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

Stay with CNN. We'll be right back.

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[13:46:19]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Right now, four House Democratic lawmakers are in El Salvador. They are advocating for the release of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who is, of course, the Maryland man at the center of this big legal fight after the Trump administration mistakenly deported him.

This weekend, the White House's immigration crackdown also suffered another setback when the Supreme Court temporarily paused the administration's deportation of immigrants using the Alien Enemies Act.

With us now is Alexandra Ribe, one of the attorneys representing Kilmar Abrego Garcia. She is a partner at the Murray Ossorio Law Firm.

Alexandra, thanks for being with us.

I wonder, have you been able to speak to your client recently? Can you update us on his status now that the Trump administration says he's been moved to a different detention facility?

ALEXANDRA RIBE, ATTORNEY REPRESENTING KILMAR ABREGO GARCIA & PARTNER, MURRAY OSSORIO LAW FIRM: Hi. Thank you for having me.

So we do not have any information on where exactly our client is located within El Salvador. So that is, unfortunately, something that we're hoping that we'll gain more information on, ideally this week.

KEILAR: Do you have any idea why he was moved?

RIBE: I mean, we don't know exactly why he was moved. All I can say is that, fortunately, the Fourth Circuit was denied the emergency stay that the government filed, which means that we are moving forward with discovery.

Which means that hopefully this week we will have answers as to what exactly the government is doing to facilitate his return from El Salvador and custody and back into the United States.

Because that's exactly what they were ordered to do, and what the Supreme Court has ordered them to do.

KEILAR: So and the Trump administration, as they are supposed to "facilitate" -- that, is the important word there, "facilitate" -- your client's return to the U.S.

They've taken a very conservative reading of what that entails. If that does continue on, I hear you saying you're expecting to learn exactly what, have they done to facilitate that? What is your legal recourse?

RIBE: So we will know more this week and then -- and then, next week, we'll -- we'll be able to, to see what relief we have in this case. I mean, the thing is here that each court that has looked at this case

has said that "facilitate's" an active verb. What that means is that the government can't simply do nothing. They can't simply say, OK, well, if Mr. Abrego Garcia turns up at our border, we'll let him in.

They have to actively assist in his return to the United States. And that is what the Supreme Court has ordered them to do.

And the fact that they feel as though "facilitate" can mean that they can, quite essentially, do nearly nothing is really just at odds with that decision and should really be shocking to the American people.

Because what that means, in essence, is that somebody, as the Fourth Circuit has said, can be whisked away to a foreign prison. And then the U.S. government says that there's nothing that they can do actively to -- to assist in their return to the United States. An extremely scary notion.

KEILAR: The Trump administration has put out several statements, as you're aware, documents that contain allegations about your client, including that he was violent towards his wife, that he is a member of the M.S.-13 gang. What can you say about those allegations?

RIBE: Here's what I can say about the allegations. Our government admitted from the beginning that this was an error, and then afterwards, to try and justify this error, they try and find dirty laundry on our client, which really is irrelevant.

[13:50:03]

First of all, their evidence is extraordinarily thin. But even if there was something there, that's really irrelevant, because the whole issue is that our client was deported to the one country where a judge -- there's a final order saying that he's more likely or not to -- to be persecuted or tortured if he were to remain in that country.

And if -- and now, he was deported to that one isolated country. They have to facilitate his return. And once they do so, they are most welcome to put up any of this evidence in court.

But to justify their own admitted mistake by trying to find all these justifications, reasons, dirty laundry is just really saddening, disingenuous and frightening.

KEILAR: Yes, as you say, this really will come down to how active a verb does the court believe "facilitate" is. And we shall see.

Alexandra Ribe, thank you so much for being with us.

RIBE: Thank you very much for having me.

KEILAR: Next, we have some new video from the Orlando airport where an engine fire forced hundreds of passengers to evacuate down emergency slides. We'll have details on this straight ahead.

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SANCHEZ: Just into CNN, The FAA is investigating after an engine fire forced hundreds of passengers on a Delta Airlines flight to evacuate using the emergency slides.

KEILAR: CNN's Pete Muntean is here with us now.

Pete, what are you learning about this?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, 282 people on board this Airbus A330 operated by Delta Airlines, which is a full flight. So a pretty good job here by the flight crew getting all of these people on board off the plane. They evacuated using the emergency slides.

This is the dramatic video of the fire that precipitated this evacuation on the ground after this flight just pushed back from the gate at Orlando International Airport in the right-hand engine.

This is something called a tailpipe fire, which can happen in the core of a jet engine as the engine is starting to propose a pretty big challenge to pilots because they don't have a great view of the engine.

The fire detection system inside the plane doesn't alert them to something like this, so it's really incumbent upon the ground crew and air traffic controllers to tell pilots, hey, the plane is on fire.

You can see passengers using the emergency slides. And apparently, this was a successful evacuation, according to Delta Airlines. Nobody apparently hurt, at least according to the initial reports from Delta Airlines.

This is a pretty big jet. This is typically a plane used for Transatlantic flights going from, like, New York to Heathrow or New York to Dublin or Paris or something like that.

This is a flight that was going from Orlando to Atlanta, biggest hub for Delta Airlines, on the edge of the -- end of the spring break period. So of course, a lot of people there.

You can see the airport rescue and firefighting crews coming to the aid of this plane. Of course, they'll need to inspect this now because it can cause some damage to the wing structure of this airplane.

Eight exits on an Airbus A330 like this, takes a lot of time and a lot of effort to get people off a plane like this, although it seems like they did a pretty good job.

The big moral of the story, when you watch video like this, is to don't take your bags with you. That is the thing that can really snarl an evacuation. It can make it more dangerous for your fellow passengers.

And also think about this happening, because we're seeing this a little bit more and more, might want to wear clothes that are essentially sensible. If you had to get out of a plane in an evacuation like this, on the slides, wear close-toed shoes. Be able to run if you have to.

The risks here, though -- and this is the last resort for the pilots -- is that you end up with a lot of people there on the ramp. That poses a danger itself, too.

SANCHEZ: Fortunately, it was resolved with no injuries.

MUNTEAN: That's right.

SANCHEZ: Pete Muntean, thank you so much for the update there.

We'll be right back. Stay with us.

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