Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Pope Francis Dies on Easter Monday at Age 88; Pope Francis' Death Starts Mourning Period, Search for New Pontiff; Vatican Says Pope Francis Died of Stroke, Heart Failure; Secretary Hegseth Shared Details of Yemen Strike in Chat That Included His Family Members; U.S. Stocks Tumble as Trump Again Rips Fed Chair. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired April 21, 2025 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:01:45]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CO-ANCHOR OF "CNN NEWS CENTRAL": We're following breaking news right now. Massive crowds gathering at St. Peter's Square as senior Vatican officials are meeting to certify the death of Pope Francis. The pontiff passed away earlier this morning at the age of 88, and his death is going to set in motion a series of events that will include his funeral and eventually the election of a new Pope. At St. Peter's Square, the Pope's family is now taking part in religious rights, including the pontiff's body being placed into a coffin.

Pope Francis was beloved by Catholics around the world, and in the coming days, tens of thousands will pay the respects as his body lies in state at St. Peter's Basilica. It was there just yesterday that Pope Francis celebrated Easter with the faithful in what would be his final public appearance. The Pontiff had been suffering a series of health issues following a prolonged hospital stay because of double pneumonia. His official cause of death meantime has not yet been released. CNN's Ben Wedeman is live force in Vatican City. And Ben, Pope Francis' body is now being prepared for public visitation. What happens next?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we understand at this moment, in the chapel of the Casa Santa Marta, the guest house inside the Vatican where Pope Francis lived for the last 12 years on the second floor, that his body is now in that chapel. It will be inspected by the Chief Medical Officer of the Vatican, who will determine the cause of death. That ceremony, so to speak, will be attended by some members of the Pope's family as well as senior Vatican officials.

We understand that Wednesday, his body will lie in state in St. Peter's Basilica behind me. Now, within five to seven days, according to the rules set down by the Vatican, the funeral for the Pope should take place, although they have yet to actually specify when exactly it will happen. That is followed by nine days of prayer and services commemorating his life, his achievements, and 15 to 20 days after his death is when the conclave must begin, and that will go on for 13 days, after which they will announce the election of a Pope, and he will be officially instated as Pope five days after that. So, it's going to be a very busy several weeks here in Rome, in the Vatican City. Behind me, as they move forward, we are now in what's known as the sede vacante, the empty seat, which is the period between the death of the Pope and the selection and appointment of his successor. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Ben Wedeman live for us at Vatican City. Thank you so much, Ben. I want to go now to CNN's Jim Bittermann, who's live for us in Paris. Jim, what are you hearing about the timeline of the funeral of Pope Francis?

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, basically, it's supposed to happen somewhere within four to six days.

[14:05:00]

And you may be able to see behind me something that the French are doing to commemorate the Pope, and that is that the Eiffel Tower is going to be dark this evening in memory of the Pope. And it's just one of the things that's happened here today, including ringing of the bells at Notre Dame for 88 times. It's the age of the Pope when he died. In any case, yes, the funeral will take place four to six days or so. All this is laid out in a document that was written by Pope John Paul II in 1996. And it's pretty much become the sort of playbook for what happens after that.

You're kind of looking at a conclave that would begin around May 6th, perhaps. It could be started earlier should the cardinals decide that it is possible because enough of them are in Rome. Some of them may have been in Rome and stayed in Rome after the announcement of the Pope's death because they were here for Easter. But in fact, it is possible that they were attending to their flocks and they'll have to make arrangements to fly here. They -- each one of them makes their own arrangements. So they come in, in trickles, for the next couple of weeks. And then the conclave begins.

The conclave is a kind of thing where, if you've seen the movie 'The Conclave', it was pretty accurate on this, is that when the first -- maybe the first time some of these cardinals are actually meeting each other, some of them don't know each other, and kind of working out what kind of a future for the church there might be, what would be their best perspective, and then what kind of a person best suits that. And it's in the past has almost always been a surprise. I mean, it was a surprise when John Paul II, a Polish Pope was elected. And when Francis was elected, as Ben said a little earlier this evening, we had trouble figuring out exactly who it was they were announcing because the South American cardinal was not on anybody's playbook. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Jim Bittermann, thank you so much for that important context. Brianna?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CO-ANCHOR OF "CNN NEWS CENTRAL": With us now is Father Thomas Massaro. He is a Jesuit priest and Professor of Moral Theology at Fordham University. He's also an author who's written multiple books about Pope Francis. Most recently, this one in 2023 entitled "Pope Francis as Moral Leader."

Thank you, father, for being with us. And it is important to note that Francis was the first Pope from the Society of Jesus. Can you just talk a little bit about how that background, his background as a Jesuit, shaped his approach?

FATHER THOMAS MASSARO, PROFESSOR OF MORAL THEOLOGY, FORDHAM UNIVERSITY: Sure. And it's great to be with you, Brianna. It's a -- first of all, it's a very sad moment for Catholics around the world. There's 1.4 billion Catholics, and I suspect Pope Francis has billions of other admirers. It is a bit of irony because just yesterday was the Christian feast of Easter and we're celebrating new life, the resurrection of Jesus, and we wake up on Easter Monday, the next day, to the sad news. So a lot of mourning, a lot of mixed emotions.

Pope Francis is in fact, the first Jesuit. The Jesuits were founded -- as a pope -- founded in the year 1540. So in nearly 500 years, there have been candidates for the papacy. Famously Cardinal Bellarmine around the year 1600 was considered a prime candidate. He received some votes in the conclave twice in the early 1600s. But, the Jesuits are not, and I'm a Jesuit, so we take a vow not to aspire to ecclesiastical office and that means becoming an honorary, a monsignor, fairly low level, a bishop, a cardinal, or a Pope. In order to do that, we have to receive an exception. And so it's very exceptional, anytime you hear about a Jesuit cardinal and again, this is the first time we've had a pope.

So, your larger question is what does he bring from his Jesuit background to this office? And I'm going to use the word spirituality, which of course is a large -- it's a big word and it could mean almost anything. The Jesuit spirituality is one dedicated to engagement with the world. So, not imagining that the spiritual realm is separated from the rest of political economic reality, but really to bring the values of Christian faith, the dignity of individuals, the common good, to bring that into the public sphere. And I have to say, observing Francis as I have for the last 12 years very closely, he's done exactly that. Surprise is, but in that Jesuit pattern of doing exactly what that spirituality demands.

KEILAR: And in that sort of teaching tradition, that is such a part of the Jesuit tradition, right?

[14:10:00]

And listening, we just had this guest on who told an amazing story, who's a survivor of clergy sexual assault, and had had a long friendship with the Pope. And he described these moments of the Pope listening so much to what he had to say. There's sort of this listening and this teaching. And I wonder, as you think about that teaching tradition and that it really is something that the Pope carried forth, what was his greatest teaching in your view?

MASSARO: Yeah. Well, Pope Francis will be remembered for many things. And that was a -- I saw that interview. It was very moving. A man who had suffered marginalization his whole life being accepted by the very top of the Catholic Church hierarchy, the Pope. So, the Jesuit background includes a very -- it's a fancy word, but it's an English word -- discernment, which comes from the Latin root 'to listen.' And I've been a teacher all my adult life at every level, high school and college, et cetera. And I think the best thing I do is not to lecture, but to listen closely to my students.

And that value, which Pope Francis clearly had, is part of our Jesuit background. Another, can I use two Latin words, "Cura Personalis," two Latin words that mean "care for each person." And it sounds like Pope Francis cared deeply for that man. And to tell you the truth, many, many others, we'll never know how many people whose lives he touched, because he had the heart of a pastor as well as a teacher.

KEILAR: Yeah, I know it is a day of deep sadness. I know with his passing, it's also a day of reflection. And I appreciate you, Father Massaro, talking to me and reflecting with me. I appreciate it.

MASSARO: My pleasure.

KEILAR: Thank you. And still to come, an emotional mass today at Pope Francis' former Church in Buenos Aires. We will take a closer look at his lasting influence in Latin America. And then just ahead, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth facing new criticism as details of a supposed Signal Gate sequel are revealed. But President Trump is saying "There's no dysfunction at all." Plus, the stock market taking another fall today. What China is saying, that is adding to the tumultuous trade war, well, that a much more coming up on "CNN News Central."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:17:12]

KEILAR: Today, President Trump is defending his Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, and pushing back on claims that the Pentagon has become dysfunctional under the former Fox Anchor's leadership. It comes as multiple sources tell CNN that Hegseth revealed detailed military operation plans in another -- this is a separate Signal group chat from that initial one that spawned Signal Gate. Last hour, I asked President Trump's former National Security Advisor, John Bolton about Hegseth's future. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I think he has used up his bank account with Donald Trump. Trump doesn't want to have to waste his resources defending his people, and that's now what he's doing on Hegseth. But I think Trump is bound and determined not to show weakness, which is what he's worried he would do if he fires Hegseth or anybody else. So, I think Hegseth has a shelf life of undetermined length.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: CNN National Security Reporter Zach Cohen is following this story for us. All right, Zach, what are you learning about this? Again, second reported Signal group chat that included some of his family members? ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yeah, Brianna, like the first group chat, the second Signal group chat also included details about military strikes on the Houthis in Yemen. That's what we've confirmed from our sources. Unlike the first group chat, which was made up of members of Trump's national security team, the second chat included members of really close confidants of Pete Hegseth himself, included his wife who does not have a job at the Department of Defense. It included his personal lawyer and his brother who does -- both his lawyer and his brother do have jobs.

But it remains unclear why they would need to know anything about U.S. military strikes on the Houthis in Yemen. And look, this is not happening in a vacuum, right? This comes as several of members of Hegseth's inner circle are raising new concerns about his judgment. That includes three former officials who were fired last week. These are top officials who were top advisors to Hegseth. They were fired as the department says, over a leak investigation.

That's something that these three individuals, which includes a senior adviser, a deputy chief of staff, and the department's -- the deputy defense secretary's deputy chief of staff, they deny that outright. But look, this is something that is really putting more pressure and spotlight back on Pete Hegseth, who has vehemently denied that his job is in jeopardy. And that's something that Donald Trump is also insisting today. Take a listen to what he said when asked about these new revelations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: He's doing a great job. It's just fake news. They just bring up stories. I guess it sounds like disgruntled employees. He was put there to get rid of a lot of bad people, and that's what he is doing. So, you don't always have friends when you do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: So it's important to note that these individuals who are sounding the alarm are people that Pete Hegseth hired and brought into the Pentagon himself.

[14:20:00]

His former press secretary writing an op-ed in Politico saying the Pentagon has descended into complete dysfunction. It's been a week and a month of complete chaos over there. That's according to people closest to Hegseth. So we'll have to wait and see, but Trump standing behind his defense secretary as of now.

KEILAR: Yeah. And his former press secretary raising questions about how long he'll last in that op-ed, very interesting to see. Zach Cohen, great reporting. Thank you so much. Boris?

SANCHEZ: We're following breaking news, U.S. stocks taking another beating today. And investors are concerned about continued tariff uncertainty and from President Trump's ongoing efforts to try to oust Fed Chairman Jerome Powell. In his social media post today, Trump called Powell a major loser and again pressured him to lower interest rates. We're joined now by Joe Weisenthal. He's the Co-Host of Bloomberg's "Odd Lots" podcast.

Joe, thanks for being with us. Let's start on how markets have responded to this spat with Powell. You actually posed the question of what Trump would get from firing him. Isn't the answer that simply, you would get a Fed Chair who would do what he says, a more subservient Fed Chair?

JOE WEISENTHAL, CO-HOST OF BLOOMBERG'S "ODD LOTS" PODCAST: He might, and that's probably what he has in mind if you were to go through with firing him. But the point that I want to make and the point that I think maybe markets are reflecting is, OK, you could imagine Powell being replaced by someone who is quicker to lower rates at signs of volatility or quicker to lower rates at signs of economic slowdown. But the investors in markets, their fear about inflation, their fear about the short-term inflation due to tariffs, they're concerned about sort of long-term rise in inflation expectation

. And there's the risk and there's the very real possibility that even if you got a Fed Chair who was willing to push through, and bear in mind, there's 12 members of the FOMC, so you can't unilaterally push through lower rates. Even if you got a Fed Chair who is able to immediately push through lower rates, that might be seen as more inflationary. And then the market might think, OK, well now, we have to raise rates further and harder into the future. And that's how you get the rates at the long end.

And those rates at the long end, say a 10-year yield, that's what your mortgage is priced off of, something like that. So even getting in like a true lackey wouldn't necessarily stimulate the economy in perhaps the way that Trump is imagining. What it would do though is weaken the expectation that the U.S. has an independent central bank, which is sort of like one of the foundational elements of global macroeconomic policy.

SANCHEZ: Yeah, I do want to get your thoughts on where we are in the U.S. trade war with China. It seems the Trump administration is still waiting for a call from President Xi that they suggested he should make like a month ago.

WEISENTHAL: I mean, even setting aside China, so obviously, about a week after Liberation Day, actually I think it was exactly a week, they sort of dialed back the tariffs on the non-China world and they're like, all right, these are going to be down to 10 percent for 90 days. We're not even getting those deals, like a trade deal with Japan, which is a long-time trading partner, an ally, like that should be a jimmy (ph), right? Like it shouldn't be particularly hard. You could imagine say something where like Japan agrees to buy more soybeans or liquid natural gas or something like that. We're not even getting that right now.

And the messages that I've seen in various reporting says that's going to be a slug. So then think that's Japan, and then you have to think, OK, then there's the E.U. and Korea and everyone else, and all this is before you even get to China. So I think people are looking at the fact that there is this clock that's ticking and we're not even getting what should be the easy trade deals or the natural trade deals that you'd want to imagine if we were going to sort of build this global trading block excluding China.

And so, every day that this goes on, A, there is damage theoretically -- people perceive there to be damage to the economy that's not easily reversed. It also shows that, the longer it goes on without some sort of reversal, that the market is not that -- that the White House is not particularly sensitive to market declines for the pace of policy.

SANCHEZ: Joe Weisenthal, very much appreciate the perspective. Thanks for joining us.

WEISENTHAL: Thanks for having me.

SANCHEZ: Of course. Still to come, we take a closer look at the impact that Pope Francis has had in building the Catholic Church in Latin America. We're back in just a few minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:29:12]

SANCHEZ: We have breaking news into CNN. We've now learned the official cause of death of Pope Francis. Just moments ago, the Vatican announcing that the 88-year-old pontiff died of a stroke and heart failure. Meantime, in the Pope's home country of Argentina, people have been deeply affected by the death of the first Pope from South America. Born in Buenos Aires, he became the archbishop of that capital city in the late '90s and was living a humble life that, ultimately, became his trademark.

The future Pontiff took the bus to work and cooked his own meals. CNN's Cecilia Dominguez is in Buenos Aires for us. And Cecilia, you are seeing an outpouring of emotion from Catholics and even folks from outside the region traveling there.

CECILIA DOMINGUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's what we've been seeing during all morning, Boris. We are working here in Buenos Aires.