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Vatican: Pope Francis Died Of Stroke, Heart Failure; Argentinians Mourn Pope Francis' Death on Easter Monday At Age 88; Pope Francis Is Being Remembered As A Disrupter; Tensions Escalate Between Trump And Harvard University; Cancer Deaths Declining Overall, But Diagnoses Rising In Women. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired April 21, 2025 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: CNN's Cecilia Dominguez is in Buenos Aires for us.

And, Cecilia, you're seeing an outpouring of emotion from Catholics and even folks from outside the region traveling there.

CECILIA DOMINGUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's what we've been seeing during all morning, Boris. We are working here in Buenos Aires. We are at the cathedral, the Metropolitan Cathedral in Buenos Aires, where, as you can see, the doors are open.

They have been open for at least five or six hours. At 7:30 a.m. local time, the doors were opened for many mourners that wanted to pay their tribute, to pay respect to Pope Francis.

And as you can see, many people are now posting thank-you letters. They are posting pictures, Pope Francis' pictures here. There are also flowers. They are lighting candles.

They are coming, all from different parts, neighborhoods in Buenos Aires, and also, of course, there are so many tourists that were here in -- in Buenos Aires and that wanted to come to the cathedral to say goodbye to -- to Pope Francis.

Many were in shock, of course, in shock because of the of the news of the sudden loss of -- of Pope Francis.

And as you can see, there are candles, flowers, pictures. And also there are football badges because Pope Francis was a football fan. And many supporters came here to put their -- their badges here in the -- in the entrance of -- of the cathedral.

It will be open during all day. And there are going to be masses during all day long for -- for mourners to -- to say goodbye to Pope Francis.

SANCHEZ: Cecilia Dominguez, live for us in Buenos Aires, thank you so much for that update.

Brianna? BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Pope Francis is being remembered as a

disrupter in an institution steeped in centuries of tradition. The Holy Father opened up Communion to divorced Catholics, tried to be more inclusive of women.

And one of the most landmark reforms he made was authorizing blessings for same-sex couples back in 2023. Early that year, he declared that homosexuality was not a crime.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE FRANCES (through translation): Being homosexual is not a crime. It's not a crime. Yes, it's a sin. But let's make the distinction first between sin and crime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: And joining us now is Michael Sean Winters, a writer at "The National Catholic Reporter."

Thank you so much for being with us.

I wonder, as we hear that particular moment and what we should acknowledge is a tough day for Catholics around the world, it's also this day where people are reflecting on Pope Francis' legacy.

And he wasn't afraid to rock the boat, to spur controversy, to receive criticism from within his flock, or even within the ranks of the clergy. Talk to us a little bit about that, about some of what we just heard there.

MICHAEL SEAN WINTERS, WRITER, "THE NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER": So I think, you know, what Francis did was he recognized that, under John Paul II and Benedict, there was a concern that the church's forces were becoming too centrifugal.

That we were becoming -- adopting some of the moral relativism of the ambient culture. And so they wanted to be very precise about the rules.

And what he discerned and recognized and brought to the fore was we -- in that, we lost the essential message, which is that God's mercy is greater than all of our sins. And that it's God's place to judge, not -- not ours.

That you shouldn't stand at the entrance to the church with a checklist. Least of all, a checklist that focuses almost uniquely on sexual sins. And so that was, you know, a bit of a shake up for people.

I think the second part of it that's related is he was so direct in his speech. So, you know, the Catholic tradition, starting in 1891 with Pope Leo, you have pretty vocal concerns about modern capitalism. But it was always phrased in very highfalutin theological language.

Pope Francis in 2013 issued his first encyclical, Evangelii Gaudium, and he said, "This economy kills." So he was very direct, both with his words and his teaching.

But even more in his approach to people. He was a very approachable person. But he also took -- always took the initiative and went out. And a theme of his -- his ministry was to accompany people where they are.

And I think that upset some people who had a kind of, you know, Javert in "Les Miserables" sensibility that, you know, those who falter and fail must pay the price. And that was not Francis.

KEILAR: You definitely knew where he stood, to your point, about the kind of language that he used.

So when you think about where he stood, and his passing, how does that inform this moment for the church, for who may be picked as the next pope, if they want to continue with someone, you know, who -- who thinks sort of in the vein of Francis, or maybe someone more traditional?

[14:35:01]

WINTERS: Oh, I think there will be a real concern to continue with his vision. How that will look, they may want -- you know, Francis was a little bit of a lone wolf.

And they may want somebody who's a little bit more of a manager and can, you know, get the Curia at the Vatican, which is kind of the administrative bureaucracy, he would work around them. And I think they are going to want somebody who can actually get them on board.

But I don't see that there's going to be any retrenchment. I don't know that they will find someone who has his gift, not just for words, but for gestures.

I mean, he had such a sense of picking out the person in the crowd who needed to be held and embraced. And those pictures went viral, and, you know, they were worth a thousand words.

KEILAR: Yes. Speaking of one, it's -- it's like you knew what I was going to ask you next, because on the Thursday before Easter, he would participate in the ritual that he became so known for, of washing peoples feet.

Once he broke tradition by washing the feet of 12 women at a prison in Rome. We're looking at pictures of that, which was just extraordinary to see.

What was the significance of Pope Francis doing something like this?

WINTERS: This was very interesting. So the first time he -- right after he was elected pope, we went into Holy Week back in 2013.

And traditionally on Holy Thursday, the popes would go to Saint John Lateran, which is the actual cathedral in Rome, and wash the feet of 12 priests, indicating the apostles. And he went to a prison every one of his Holy Thursdays of his

pontificate, which he had done in Buenos Aires, including last Thursday.

And he apologized that because of his physical infirmities he was not able to wash their feet. But he spent a half hour there because he wanted to be with them.

And, you know, no one's -- people throw around the word "marginalized" a little easily. No one's more marginalized than a person in prison. And that's where he spent every Holy Thursday washing their feet, including of a Muslim that first year and women for the first time.

So again, there was this inclusive vision that -- that the church reaches out to everyone. And he would say repeatedly, Todos, Todos, Todos, everyone, everyone, everyone is welcome in the church. And he meant that.

But yet, he also -- you know, to be clear, he never changed a single church teaching. I mean, there were no doctrinal changes. It was how we apply the teaching and -- and the emphasis on gentleness and accompaniment that I think really distinguished his -- his pontificate.

KEILAR: Yes. Like you said, the checklist at the door is a very good way to think about it. That was not the barrier, perhaps.

Michael Sean Winters, great to speak with you. Thanks for being with us.

WINTERS: Thank you so much.

KEILAR: And still to come, Harvard University may be on the brink of another financial hit as it resists the Trump administration's sweeping demands.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:42:0]

SANCHEZ: We're now following a new escalation in President Trump's battle with Harvard University. The "Wall Street Journal" is reporting that the president plans to pull an additional $1 billion in federal funding from the university.

This is on top of the more than $2 billion already being withheld from the school.

The White House is also demanding access to all of Harvard campus' reports on anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim bias over the last two years.

The nation's oldest university has now become a symbol of defiance against the Trump administration by refusing demands for sweeping federal oversight.

Harvard's president saying in a statement, quote, "We will not accept their proposed agreement. The university will not surrender its independence or relinquish its constitutional rights."

Joining us now to discuss is Nicholas Kristof. He's an opinion columnist with the "New York Times" and a former member of Harvard's Board of Overseers.

He penned this op-ed, quote, "It's time to protect America from America's president," in which he calls the Trump administration "authoritarian and reckless."

I do want to get to the op-ed. But I want to talk about this spat between the university and the administration first.

You are obviously a member -- a former member of Harvard's Board of Overseers. Your wife is a current member. Why do you think the Trump administration is going after Harvard?

NICHOLAS KRISTOF, OPINION COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES" & FORMER MEMBER, HARVARD BOARD OF OVERSEERS: I think the Trump administration is going after Harvard for the same reason that Vladimir Putin went after universities in Russia, that Xi Jinping went after universities in China, that Viktor Orban went after universities in Hungary.

Authoritarians don't want alternative sources of information of moral judgment, of alternative ideas. They want full control.

And, you know, the idea that this is about anti-Semitism, when the Trump administration itself is defending Neo-Nazis in Charlottesville or hanging out with descendants of Nazis in terms of the AFD in Germany, it's just ludicrous.

I mean, he can start by dealing with his own administration if he wants to make a run at anti-Semitism.

What this is, is about control. And the idea that somehow he's going to, you know, address anti-Semitism by reducing cancer research at Harvard Medical School or heart disease research or, you know, disease or research on Lou Gehrig's Disease is just ludicrous.

And, I mean, thank God for Harvard and showing the spine to resist.

SANCHEZ: You have written that critics of elite universities have made some legitimate points. I wonder what those are and how they should be addressed.

[14:45:01]

KRISTOF: So, I mean, absolutely. I think that, you know, one reason why elite universities are vulnerable is because they did sort of remove themselves. They were elitist.

There are plenty of universities where a majority -- where a majority of the undergraduates come from the top 1 percent. And I mean, that is ridiculous for a public good, like a university, to draw so much of its -- of its intake from the top.

And, you know, I mean, at some point, Trump has a point there. There is a strain of anti-Semitism in the left. You know, just as there is in the right.

And universities should have been more forthright about -- about that anti-Semitism, also about Islamophobia.

And, you know, I think there's also a legitimate point that some disciplines and some campuses have been inhospitable to the kind of inclusiveness and diversity that is maybe most important of all. And that is ideological diversity.

I think, you know, there are plenty of social conservatives or Evangelical Christians who probably didn't feel entirely welcome on elite campus.

And all those things are, you know, are absolutely worth addressing, but not by -- not by taking away a tax exempt status for Harvard, not by cutting off cancer research at Harvard medical school.

SANCHEZ: I quickly want to touch on what the impact would be of Harvard losing that tax exempt status and the $2.2 billion in federal grants. It does have a $$50-plus billion endowment.

So do you think something is going to change in terms of the quality of education, the quality of research that it does based on this pressure from the administration?

KRISTOF: Look, Harvard will be just fine. But what this is about is an administration trying to crush higher education in general at a time when there are plenty of universities that are really fighting for their business model.

One of the universities in the 50 that the administration named is Portland State University here in Oregon, where my parents taught for many years, which doesn't have that kind of cushion.

And, you know, just as President Trump tried to send a signal to law firms that we will crush you if you resist, he's now trying to send that message to -- to universities around the country and to other institutions.

And so, you know, that's why it's so important that universities do what law firms, like Paul, Weiss and Skadden Arps did not, which is to fight for credibility, for their integrity, and for the well-being of their stakeholders.

SANCHEZ: Nicholas Kristof, we'll have to leave the conversation there. Appreciate you sharing your point of view.

KRISTOF: Good to be with you.

SANCHEZ: Thanks.

Still to come, new numbers show a growing gender gap in the fight against cancer. Plus, the lifestyle changes you can make to better protect yourself.

We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:52:32]

KEILAR: A new report finds that cancer -- cancer death rates are declining in the U.S., but the report warns cancer diagnoses among women are actually on the rise.

Let's bring in CNN health reporter, Jacqueline Howard, to talk about this.

Walk us through these findings here, Jacqueline.

JACQUELINE HOWARD, CNN HEALTH REPORTER: Well, Brianna, this new report shows that the rate of men being diagnosed with cancer has actually remained stable.

But when you look at the rate of women being diagnosed with cancer, this new report from the American Cancer Society, it shows that, each year, there's been an increase in the cancer incidents among women, an increase of 0.3 percent on average per year between 2003 and 2021.

Now, we know from some previous research that breast cancer and thyroid cancer has been increasing, especially among young women. So those two cancer types may be driving this trend.

We know breast cancer specifically has been associated with increases in obesity and increases in alcohol use.

But the good news in this report is that we are seeing a decline overall in cancer deaths.

So even when someone is diagnosed with cancer today, they have a better chance of survival compared with people who are diagnosed in years past -- Brianna?

KEILAR: So what steps can women take, Jacqueline, to reduce their chance of developing cancer?

HOWARD: Absolutely. Definitely, know your family history. Talk with your doctor about your own risk factors. And talk with your doctor about staying up to date on the screening recommendations for you.

And then, just in our everyday lives, we can all focus on eating a healthy diet, getting regular exercise, don't smoke, and reduce your alcohol intake. These are all things we can do to lower our cancer risk -- Brianna?

KEILAR: All right, Jacqueline, thank you for that.

And still to come, Pope Francis will be leaving a legacy of change inside the Catholic Church. We'll look at how that may inform the selection of his successor.

And we're looking back at moments that illustrate the pope's legacy, like this one in October of 2023, when a young boy ran up to the altar during a service and stole the show. Vatican staff tried to remove him. The pope allowed him to stay, and there he stayed.

[14:54:56]

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:59:46]

SANCHEZ: A remarkable legacy. The world mourning the passing of Pope Francis as the Vatican prepares for the new election of a leader for the Catholic Church.

KEILAR: And a new Signal controversy for Pete Hegseth. The defense secretary accused of, again, sharing military plans on a group chat, a different one this time, with family members on it. Hegseth firing back, blaming disgruntled former staffers and the media.