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Trump Standing Behind Hegseth Amid Second Chat Controversy; Pope Francis' Funeral To Be Held Saturday In St. Peter's Square; Dow On Track For Worst April Since Great Depression. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired April 22, 2025 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Overnight, Florida Congressman and gubernatorial candidate Byron Donalds came face-to-face with angry constituents at a town hall where voters demanded answers about the cuts in the Trump administration led by Elon Musk.

It came to a head when Donalds was asked about Social Security.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you approve of Elon and DOGE invading our social security files?

(Cheering)

REP. BYRON DONALDS (R-FL): Elon Musk and DOGE have been authorized by the President of the United States.

(Booing)

Don't boo. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't boo. Don't boo. Now this is my question for the audience: Do you want to yell or do you want to hear?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, with us now is former White House official under President George W. Bush, Ashley Davis, and Democratic strategist Julie Roginsky.

So you have that with Byron Donalds, which might not even be the worst headline or news that Republicans are facing this morning when they wake up.

In The Wall Street Journal today -- as we like to say, the Rupert Murdoch-owned Wall Street Journal -- this headline: "Dow Headed for Worst April Since 1932 as Investors Send 'No Confidence' Signal."

When you jump in the article it says the "The Trump rout..." -- and that's their words. "The Trump rout is taking on historic dimensions. The Dow Jones Industrial Average shed almost 1,000 points on Monday headed for its worst April since 1932. The S&P's performance since Inauguration Day is now the worst for any president up to this point in data going back to 1928." That's according to the Bespoke Investment Group.

So Julie, if you're in the White House and you see these headlines: worst April Since the Great Depression, how does that put the wind beneath your wings?

JULIE ROGINSKY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: If you're in the White House you don't care. If you are a Senate Republican or a House Republican, you should care because you're up for election next year.

And as you saw from Byron Donalds yesterday and you saw from Chuck Grassley's town hall and other town hall, voters are fed up. They're scared. They're panicking about their bottom line.

This president was elected by his own account to lower the price of groceries. To, as he says, bring -- you know, make America great again. This is not making America great again.

And the people who are going to pay for it are the enablers in Washington who right now don't have the courage to come out against this president on any number of issues because they're so terrified of having Elon Musk either fund a primary against them or have Donald Trump support a primary opponent against them.

They're really between a rock and a hard place because they see what's happening to the economy. They know it's going to affect them next November and yet they don't have the courage to come out and say that this needs to change.

BERMAN: Ashley, how does this affect the ability to get things done in the White House if this is what you're seeing when you start every day?

ASHLEY DAVIS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE OFFICIAL FOR PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY OFFICIAL, FOUNDING PARTNER, WEST FRONT STRATEGIES: Look, I think -- I think she's exactly right in regards to the White House is in this for the long haul and maybe what's going to happen in September, not what's going to happen over the next couple of weeks. But it's a tough argument.

I mean, you have various members on the Hill that are concerned in doing town halls like Byron Donalds did, which is why the Republican leadership is telling them not to do that right now because the thought process is that there's a lot of Democrat plants in the audience that are being funded by outside Democrat organizations. Whether that's right or not it's yet to be seen.

But the problem with the economy being uncertain and the fact that Chairman Powell and the president are fighting over cutting interest rates is actually the big problem right now. The uncertainty and the stability is what actually makes the market positive for investors and especially for everyday Americans like us.

So I think that most economists believe that the interest rate should be cut probably at least 50 basis points, whether that's by 25 at a time. Obviously, they will meet again in May to see if that happens.

But a public fight just lacks stability, which is why the markets are doing this, but it's concerning.

BERMAN: Yeah.

DAVIS: And yeah, you don't want to wake up to that message very day.

BERMAN: You know -- and Ashley, you're basically making this point, but The Wall Street Journal is not a Democratic plant in a town hall. So when they see that headline it's just a historical fact -- the worst April since the Great Depression.

Do you have a sense they have a political grasp -- not an economic grasp but a political grasp on this situation right now?

DAVIS: Absolutely, and I think that they're waiting for the long haul. Again -- I mean, we don't have an election really. By next summer if the markets are not where they need to be, if the economy is not where it needs to be, if everyday prices in regards to gas and groceries are not where they need to be, that's where it's concern.

We do have time. I think they feel they have time and they're going to ride this out. They feel that the broader policy issues are much more important than the up and down over the next couple of weeks.

BERMAN: We'll see if it's just a couple of weeks or it goes longer than that.

So Julie, Pete Hegseth -- Signal group chat including his wife and brother that included some of those very detailed military strike plans, including, like, this is when the bombs will drop -- that level of specificity. At least that was in the first Signal chat.

[07:35:05]

You know have Republican Congressman Don Bacon who himself has decorated military service, saying this guy is "unserious" to quote succession there. He goes on to say, "If a Democrat did this we'd be demanding a scalp. I don't like hypocrisy. We should be Americans first when it comes to security."

ROGINSKY: Well, Don Bacon is in a swing district and Don Bacon understands his political future rides on making sure that this president brings some sort of stability to our national security and to our economy. And, of course, that's why Don Bacon's reacting.

The people who should be reacting are people like Joni Ernst, people like Roger Wicker, people like Tom Cotton. People like Deb Fischer who on her website -- I actually looked on her website yesterday -- said something along the lines of her number one priority is making sure that our nation is protected and our homeland security is secure. I'm paraphrasing.

If that's true you have a senior member of this administration not once but twice putting war plans on a group chat, one of which is on his private phone which you can be assured that China or Russia, or Iran, or somebody's already hacked into -- they had it -- and sending it to his wife who, I mean, God bless Jen Hegseth but what qualifications does she have to look at any kind of proprietary military information? And yet they are so terrified that they are putting America's security second to their own political survival.

I mean, you know, these are people -- every person I mentioned served in the armed forces. They took an oath to the Constitution. They took an oath to defend the United States.

And yet they are so concerned about their political future that they don't have the courage to stand up -- Roger Wicker is chairman of the Armed Services Committee -- and say you know what, we made a mistake. Pete Hegseth is not a serious man. He was not qualified for this job. Lesson learned. Let's get somebody in there who actually knows how to do the job. But they're not going to do that because the president is standing behind him, and because the president is standing behind him, they are going to stand behind him. It's a complete abdication of their responsibilities.

BERMAN: Ashley, to basically Don Bacon's point or question here what would Republicans be saying if this were a Democratic administration and an official had used his private phone in a Signal group chat sending these detailed war plans?

DAVIS: Well, we watched how the Republicans reacted to this during not the same instance but because of, like, Hillary Clinton's laptop. Obviously, each side of the aisle fight about the lack of judgment on both sides.

I mean, obviously this is not something that Pete Hegseth should be having the President of the United States talk about. It was a lack of judgment. It was supposedly sensitive information. The inspector general of the Department of Defense will tell us if it's more than sensitive information. But at the end of the day it shouldn't have been on any phone or in any Signal chat.

Obviously, this is -- hopefully he learned his lesson the first time this happened the same time -- if it happened, the same time as the first Signal chat. So it's not like something that happened a couple of weeks later.

But more importantly what he has in his favor right now is the fact that The New York Times is all over this, and The New York Times is the one that's breaking this. I mean, this just makes the president and the White House, right or wrong, dig in even deeper because they are saying look, these guys have been after Hegseth since the beginning and we're not going to move just because of x, y, and z.

And he's going to be talking -- Hegseth is going to be talking today at 8:00 a.m. Let's see what he says. But I imagine that he is going to be digging in --

BERMAN: Yes.

DAVIS: -- digging in even deeper. BERMAN: Here is what he will likely say because this is what he has been saying. He won't deny any of it. He won't deny that he used a private device --

DAVIS: Yeah.

BERMAN: -- to send these detailed strike plans to his wife and brother. What he'll do is he'll attack those who made that information public.

Ashley Davis, Julie Roginsky, thanks so much for being with us this morning. Appreciate your time -- Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: So funeral plans are now set for Pope Francis. The Vatican says services will be held outside in St. Peter's Square on Saturday morning. His coffin will be moved to St. Peter's Basilica tomorrow. And the funeral -- well, he will be buried -- after the funeral he will be buried in another church in Rome becoming the first pope in more than 100 years to be laid to rest outside the Vatican, adding that to the many firsts that Pope Francis represents and brought about.

Catholics around the world are now remembering the pontiff's legacy and also talking about what they are looking for in the pope to follow.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He just did everything for the poor, for the needy, and it was never about him as a leader. He did an amazing job of leading the church for others.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He made the church more inclusive. That's what I like for everyone. And so I think that's something that hopefully, like, we keep going on also with the next pope.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And joining us right now is Father Patrick Mary Briscoe, editor of "Our Sunday Visitor," a national Catholic magazine. It's good to see you, Father. Thank you so much for being here.

FATHER PATRICK MARY BRISCOE, EDITOR, "OUR SUNDAY VISITOR": Great to be with you, Kate.

[07:40:00]

BOLDUAN: So we now have funeral plans. We know it will held Saturday morning. You are about to head off to Rome. You will be attending.

What are you expecting it to be like?

BRISCOE: It's a privilege Kate to have the opportunity to pay my respects to Pope Francis. I was ordained a priest in 2016, which was the Jubilee Year of Mercy, and I think for me that was one of the highlights of Pope Francis' pontificate because mercy signifies so much of what he intended for our church and so much of what he wanted people to understand about the gospel. So for me that was just really a high moment, and it was really the beginning.

So my priesthood has been marked by Pope Francis in this way. He's been the only pope while I've been a priest and it's an honor to pay tribute to him and to thank him for his ministry and our church.

BOLDUAN: The -- over the course of his 12 years Francis' picks for the College of Cardinals has, as I'm now learning from everyone who has been helping us -- educate us -- is it has really kind of moved away from the European base of cardinals. Like, the base that it has been for so long to country -- moving towards countries like Africa, Asia, Latin America, and beyond.

And one thing that I read is really -- I found really interesting that out of the 135 cardinals eligible to vote for the next pope, Pope Francis elevated 108, meaning 80 percent of the votes cast for the next pope will be cast by cardinals who owe their position to Francis.

And I'm curious what you think of just -- it speaks to the influence and legacy of Pope Francis and what this kind of reshaping of the College of Cardinals means for Catholics around the world.

BRISCOE: That's an extremely fair thing to say about it that he really has reshaped the college. And so it's true that many people don't really know what to expect in the election because these cardinals don't really know each other it would seem because they've come from the far corners of the world. They sort of know who each other are and have an idea of what a man stands for but it's not at all clear what they're going to do as they get together to vote in this conclave.

BOLDUAN: Yeah.

BRISCOE: Now there's an old saying that a man who enters the conclave as pope leaves as a cardinal. So anyone that -- anyone that thinks he's a frontrunner maybe has another surprise coming. And so we watch with a kind of humility because we don't really know what's going to happen.

But it's true that these men appointed by Francis have a mark in pastoral character.

BOLDUAN: Um-hm.

BRISCOE: They're administrators, they're leaders, they're close to the people, and that's no doubt going to affect what they're looking for in the next pope. Whether it's going to be a continuation of Pope Francis' project or a referendum.

BOLDUAN: Well, and I'm curious you're kind of thought on how might the church's direction change under new leadership.

BRISCOE: It's a great question and one that I -- one that I love thinking about because it's either going to be that Pope Francis has shaped the church and shaped the college in a definitive way --

BOLDUAN: Um-hum.

BRISCOE: -- and the project that he's initiated continues -- accelerates even, we might say, or the church under her leaders will tack back to a more traditional posture. So that question really is the key because that's going to become a kind of way we understand and perceive and evaluate Pope Francis' legacy.

BOLDUAN: And before all of that comes the moment, and we're in that moment of nine days of mourning and reflection and just honoring the pope and his legacy. What -- his funeral plans and how -- his wishes of his funeral plans -- just the simplicity of it that he has requested. It was really interesting reading his statement.

What does that reflect?

BRISCOE: Well, it was very beautiful and in some ways it's very medieval. My founder -- the founder of my religious order, St. Dominic, asked for the same. He asked to be buried under the feet of his brethren.

And I love this posture of Pope Francis because he wants the papacy to be an office that represents every Catholic.

BOLDUAN: Um-hum.

BRISCOE: He wants to be close to the people. He wants people to know that the church loves them, and he wants people to have a place in the church, and these are things that I as a priest deeply value. And it's something that's been so beautiful to see in Pope Francis' papacy.

And so when we talk about the funeral and people say well, it's just a show. No -- I think it's deeply symbolic because Pope Francis was a master of this kind of gesture and that's how he won the hearts of so many people. Pope Francis is beloved not just in the United States but around the world, and beloved not just because of the kinds of things he's said but because of the way that he lived.

And so I think the simplicity of his tomb is a last great memorial to that direction -- that spirit with which he governed and led our church.

BOLDUAN: So interesting and fascinating.

Thank you so much for being here, Father. Thank you. We appreciate it.

BRISCOE: My joy, Kate. Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Safe travels -- John.

BERMAN: A couple of really good basketball games overnight and a bunch of really sad faces here in New York City.

Coy Wire here with the highlights. Uh-oh, Coy.

COY WIRE, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Yeah, some weeping faces at MSG. We'll get to that in a minute but let's start, John, with Detroit basketball.

[07:45:00]

The bad boys, one of the iconic NBA franchises. Who would have thought it'd be them with one of the saddest streaks in the game? The Pistons had lost 15 straight playoff games -- the longest such streak in NBA history. But after blowing a huge fourth quarter lead and getting knocked by the Knicks in game one, the Pistons bounced back like a blowup big punching bag getting their first playoff win since 2008.

Cade Cunningham scoring a team high 33 and 12 rebounds. Detroit only made six threes in the game.

Now, Knicks star Jalen Brunson -- he scored a game-high 37. He got it to Josh Hart there with a minute-15 to go and tied it up. But on the next possession Detroit's Dennis Schroder, who scored 20 off the bench, put the Pistons ahead and they didn't look back. A gritty win taking game two 100-94.

Here's their star, Cunningham.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CADE CUNNINGHAM, GUARD, DETROIT PISTONS: It's a great feeling, man. It feels good to represent the city like we did tonight. It's something that the city has been waiting on for a long time, so we feel good about it and we're ready to get back to the crib and perform in front of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WIRE: In Denver, home team Nuggets with a 1-0 series lead, John.

And maybe Jamal Murray thought that they could intimidate their way to another win over the Clippers in game two. Watch Murray pick up Norman Powell. And that's not normal, pal. Norman didn't like it. Several technicals assessed. Murray scored 23.

Nikola Jokic notched 26 points and a triple-double but L.A. star Kawhi Leonard was all that and a bag of chips for the Clips. Thirty-nine points in his bag. He was everywhere in a back-and-forth affair, including right there in the final seconds in the face of Jokic forcing the missed shot.

The Clippers tie the series at one apiece 105-102.

NHL now. Washington and Montreal, game one, Stanley Cup Playoffs. The Capitals star Alex Ovechkin has scored more goals than anyone in NHL history, but last night he scored this one. It was unlike any he'd ever scored. His first-ever overtime playoff goal is the game winner over the Canadians. Three-two is the final.

John, Ovey has played in 46 overtime playoff games in his career, but he'd never scored a goal in one until last night.

We have two more NHL playoff games tonight and three NBA playoff games, so life is pretty good for sports fans right now.

BERMAN: It's great. It's great. I mean, all the playoff games are great. The Clippers-Nuggets -- man, this is what happens when Kawhi Leonard plays basketball. When he's on the court he can do amazing things.

WIRE: I'll do his uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh -- his laugh. I can't do it, but I can't wait to hear it at some point during the playoffs.

BERMAN: You may hear it some more coming up.

Coy Wire, great to see you.

WIRE: You too.

BERMAN: "A major loser." The new attack by President Trump against the Fed chair Jerome Powell as the president demands lower interest rates.

And while teens may love social media a new study finds a lot of them know it is hurting their mental health.

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:52:35]

BOLDUAN: All right, let's take a look right now. Futures -- they are looking for a rebound right now after a rough start to the week. They're pointing up at the moment. We're going to keep tracking this.

Monday's sell-off came after President Trump refused to let up on his attacks against the Federal Reserve chairman Jerome Powell, calling Powell "a major loser" and accusing Powell of being too slow to cut interest rates. And remember, he continues to threaten to try and fire Powell though he can't or shouldn't.

The Dow is now on track to post the worst April since the Great Depression.

And joining me right now is Natasha Sarin. She's president and co- founder The Budget Lab at Yale. She also served as a counselor to treasury secretary Janet Yellen. Natasha, thank you so -- for being here.

The headlines, or just the facts of yesterday are just wild. The Dow shed almost 1,000 points and is headed for its worst April performance since 1932. The S&P 500's performance since Inauguration Day is now the worst for any president up to this point in data going back to 1928.

Add it all up and you see what?

NATASHA SARIN, PRESIDENT AND CO-FOUNDER, THE BUDGET LAB AT YALE, PROFESSOR OF LAW, YALE LAW SCHOOL, ECONOMIST, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT FOR ECONOMIC POLICY: So I think what the market is telling you essentially is that the Trump trade is sell America. And what I mean by that is you're -- what you're seeing is the stock market crater over the course of the last 90-ish days.

BOLDUAN: Yeah.

SARIN: You're also seeing though, which is kind of strange -- normally when the market is doing poorly investors turn to bonds -- to government debt because that feels safe.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

SARIN: And we're the reserve currency of the world, and so that's a good place to park assets.

What's happening right now is that they're not doing that. And, in fact, the bond market is down. The dollar is down.

BOLDUAN: That was going to be my next question. That indicates what then?

SARIN: It indicates that we are at real risk of no longer being the safe asset of the world. And that is obviously deeply troubling when you think about, like, our geopolitical status and the American economy.

But it's also deeply troubling to the American people for their pocketbooks because what it means is it means persistently higher interest rates and it means less employment and a less strong economy.

BOLDUAN: I mean, it clearly seems from the way investors are reacting, and markets are reacting, and the world is reacting that few think the administration's negotiations with trade partners are going to either bear fruit at all or bear fruit fast enough to stop the bleed or soften the blow.

[07:55:00]

I mean, has the train left the station? Do you think, at this point, is it guaranteed this is going to be bad and this is going to snowball?

SARIN: So I want to be, like, very precise.

BOLDUAN: Um-hum.

SARIN: What we are talking about right now currently is tariff rates that are higher than at any point in the last century.

BOLDUAN: Right.

SARIN: And the reality is what this administration has launched is essentially a trade war, and when there is a trade war there are no consumers that are winners.

The average American -- we sort of ran the numbers at the Yale Budget Lab and are continuously updating them. The average American family is going to see price increases of $4,800 this year. That's the largest tax on American families in recent history. And so it is really problematic and it's really concerning.

And to your point, I think we're all kind of waiting and watching to try and understand what the off ramp might be.

But I want to be specific. Like, this is not a financial crisis that a bank failed. This is not a situation where you're dealing with, like, COVID, a once-in-a-generation, one hopes, pandemic. This is a manmade crisis by this administration. And the question that markets is asking that I think we all should ask is to what end?

BOLDUAN: To what end? I mean -- and so you have -- it's either a distraction -- it is serious or a serious distraction, and both of -- the president continuing to attack and try to undermine the Federal Reserve and Jerome Powell. But then -- so add that into the uncertainty picture.

And now we know the IMF, the International Monetary Fund, is out -- is coming out this morning and this is going to be the first report of its global outlook since the -- since President Trump has come back into office and since his trade war definitely has set in. And we are standing by to see exactly what it shows.

But if it isn't good -- if it's not a good read for this White House -- if it shows a downgrade, what does that tell you?

SARIN: And Politico is reporting that it is going to show a downgrade. And so what that tells you is that in January, the last time before this administration took office and the last time the IMF was thinking about future growth prospects, they were actually up on the United States. It looked like GDP growth was strong. The U.S. was looking like a fantastic place to invest. Our labor market was strong. And inflation has been coming down -- and the Federal Reserve has a bit to go to get to that last mile -- but the economy was doing incredibly well.

And now you're in this situation where again we're not even at 100 days yet but what the markets are telling you and what the IMF is telling you is that the global outlook is looking much shakier and it's looking shakier at the helm of the United States looking much shakier. And that is really, really quite disconcerting.

BOLDUAN: And you make that January comparison, and it has changed dramatically, quickly.

SARIN: Very quickly.

BOLDUAN: Thank you so much for coming in.

SARIN: Thanks so much for having me.

BOLDUAN: I really appreciate it -- John.

BERMAN: All right, we've got some news from Indiana. Pay attention Kate Bolduan.

BOLDUAN: I'm here. BERMAN: Part of Interstate 65 is closed this morning after a truck caught fire there. You can see some of the pictures. Police say the driver was able to escape without injury. Crews worked to put out the blaze. They still have some work to do to get the highway up and running again. They expect to reopen southbound lanes by noon.

This morning Ivy League schools and the NCAA are moving to dismiss a Title IX lawsuit that was filed over the inclusion of transgender athletes at a swimming championship. Three former University of Pennsylvania swimmers are suing claiming their rights were violated when transgender athlete Lia Thomas was allowed to compete against them at the 2022 Ivy League Swimming and Diving Championship.

The lawsuit names Harvard, who hosted the event, along with Penn, the NCAA, and the Ivy League. Harvard and Penn say they followed NCAA rules, and the Ivy League claims it is exempt from Title IX because it does not accept federal money. I imagine that means for sports.

At least five people are dead from extreme flooding across Oklahoma. That included a 12-year-old boy and a 7-year-old girl, and their mothers. Their cars were swept away. Rescue crews responded to dozens of calls. Authorities are now warning of dangerous large debris left in the roads -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: There's a new study out that finds nearly half of U.S. teenagers say that social media is having a mostly negative effect on their generation, and many are cutting back on screen time in response.

CNN's Clare Duffy has much more on this. I am all ears on this, Clare. What is this reporting telling you?

CLARE DUFFY, CNN BUSINESS WRITER: Yeah. What's interesting is that we hear a lot from adults -- from parents, from educators --

BOLDUAN: Yes.

DUFFY: -- about their concerns when it comes to young people and social media. But this report gives us a look at what teens themselves say about their social media use. And what we're finding big picture is that the picture is not great, and it's actually gotten worse in the last few years.

So now about half of teens -- 48 percent -- say they believe social media a mostly negative effect on people of their age. That is worse than the 32 percent who said the same in 2022. But what's interesting is that just 14 percent of teens say that they think social media has a mostly negative impact on them personally. So there's a bit of a disconnect between what they're saying about their peers and what they're saying about themselves.

But nonetheless, 44 percent of teens say they plan to cut back, or they have cut back on both their social media and their smartphone use.