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Trump Remains Strongly Behind Hegseth Amid Smear Campaign; Stocks Push Higher After Bessent Tells Investors He Expects U.S.-china Trade War to De-escalate; White House on Trade Deals, Team Has 18 Proposals on Paper; IMF: U.S. And Global Economies to Slow Sharply Due to Tariffs; Gold Surges to New Record High as Trump Rips Fed Chair. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired April 22, 2025 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:01:55]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CO-ANCHOR OF "CNN NEWS CENTRAL": Plan of attack, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth going on the offensive fighting to keep his job while insisting the information that he shared on a Signal group chat with his wife among others was unclassified with the White House arguing that this is the cost of bringing major change to the Pentagon. President Trump appears to be standing by him. Meantime, a rollercoaster ride on Wall Street. It's not over yet. Stocks up today, but pessimism persists as economists warn that the damage from Trump's trade war could impact the entire world.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CO-ANCHOR OF "CNN NEWS CENTRAL": And saying farewell to the Pope while debating who will be the next Pope. The Vatican preparing for a funeral for Francis as the conversation begins over who should lead the Catholic Church next. We're following these major developing stories and many more, all coming in right here to "CNN News Central."

SANCHEZ: Just moments ago, white House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt told reporters that President Donald Trump remains strongly behind Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. This comes as several of Hegseth's former top advisers have sounded the alarm about his leadership. Earlier today, Hegseth confirmed the existence of a second Signal group chat where sources say that he shared detailed military plans with his wife, brother, and others using his personal phone. CNN's Jeff Zeleny is live now from the White House.

Jeff, what more came out of today's briefing?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Boris, the White House is offering a robust defense of its embattled defense secretary with Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt saying that Hegseth is doing a tremendous job. And then she pointed the finger at others who she said are trying to take down the administration.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: They were Pentagon employees who leaked against their boss to news agencies in this room. And it's been clear since day one from this administration that we are not going to tolerate individuals who leak to the mainstream media, particularly when it comes to sensitive information.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: So the White House is seeking to deflect a bit here and take the attention away from one of the issues in questions at hand, and that was, was there a classified or sensitive information that was distributed to the defense secretary's wife, his brother, his lawyer, and others? The defense secretary said it was not a classified information, but Boris, one question still remaining here, even as the president says he stands squarely behind his defense secretary. What is the judgment at issue here? Was the right judgment exercised in all this?

Now, one official I was speaking with earlier said that, because the Senate is on recess this week, all of these questions are likely to be revisited next week. Of course, he was narrowly confirmed in the Senate. He's already the subject of many questions there by some Senators. He was confirmed by just a one-vote majority. So expect these questions to continue next week. But as of now, the White House is standing squarely behind him. Boris?

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SANCHEZ: Jeff Zeleny live for us at the White House. Thank you so much. Brianna?

KEILAR: CNN Global Affairs Analyst, Brett McGurk is with us now. He served as Coordinator for the Middle East and North Africa at the National Security Council during the Biden administration. He also served in both the Obama and Trump administrations. And thank you so much for being with us.

You hear the White House press secretary there, she's saying that Hegseth is doing a tremendous job and that the results that he's achieved thus far speak for themselves. I am curious, just sort of what you think of that? What kind of job he's doing? Are you seeing that he's made major changes so far?

BRETT MCGURK, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: I mean, I think the most significant news this week are the people who he picked, who are now out, who are saying the Pentagon is in a full-blown meltdown. So these are his people, these are Trump appointees. This is a huge problem. Something is going on here that is deep and structural. I'd look -- this is why this is so important. This, the Yemen bombing campaign against the Houthis, what -- the first Signal chat. This has now been ongoing for over a month.

I think I was on the show a month ago saying, this is probably going to on for six months. It's a serious campaign. I know something about it. We helped develop it in the last administration and kind of hand it over the planning. This is serious. We have our airmen and our Navy personnel who are undertaking this campaign. CENTCOM is doing a great job, but you cannot have this kind of disarray at the Pentagon. You know the chain of command goes from the Pentagon, or sorry, from the president to the secretary of defense. That's the chain of command. And then down to the combatant commands. This is so important for the protection of our country. Every military deployment, everything runs through that office. So, to have an insider say it's a full-blown meltdown, a Trump appointee, that's a real concern.

KEILAR: Because specifically, and we're now hearing from them, right? But you also -- you're someone we should note, you made the decision to resign. You were a holdover, which was pretty rare, from the Obama into the Trump administration, and you ultimately made a decision to resign when he decided to pull U.S. troops out of Syria. And you weren't the only one, of note. But then, we see the Pentagon spokesman former John Ullyot, he resigned and he went out there and he wrote about it. And he was saying that he thinks that Hegseth essentially should not be long for the world at the Pentagon. Do you think that's the case? I mean, do you have any sense of what that might be?

MCGURK: Look, I don't know. Trump administration, I served for two years for President Trump. Look, I want this administration to succeed. I support that campaign against the Houthis, it's important. You just can't have this kind of disarray in the Pentagon. And Trump, who's famous for holding people accountable, I would expect eventually, there's going to be a change but we'll see. I mean, I just -- this type of disarray in that office is just a huge problem. And as John Ullyot said in that letter, it's a distraction for the president that he supports. So, eventually I think a change will have to be made here.

KEILAR: He is known more for holding people to account who split with him. That is very much the truth. So as long as Hegseth is aligned with him, which he still is very much, and we saw how much political capital was expended when it came to putting him in this position, it was Vice President Vance who broke the tie, right, in the Senate. With that in mind, and if you are Iran, right?

MCGURK: Yeah.

KEILAR: You're in the middle of negotiations. If you are any kind -- if you're Russia, how are you seeing this with this chaos going on at the Pentagon? How do they actually look at this and try to take advantage of it?

MCGURK: That's a great question. I mean, if I was in the White House now in a national security role and seeing another foreign country, a foreign adversary, having this level of five senior officials being basically walked out of the Pentagon, the most senior military command of that foreign capital, I would think they got some real problems under the surface. If this is just what we're seeing, imagine what is actually going on.

You know what, test (ph) administrations are not just what they plan for. What they come in and plan to do. It is the things that don't happen. It's a major cyber attack. We fired the head of cyber command, the head of NSA, it's a major foreign attack. We don't know what's coming. And when that moment comes, you have to be ready and you have to have an Office of Secretary of Defense that is organized and disciplined. And the Leadership 101 is you take accountability, you hold yourself responsible, and you protect people under you. And like, there's no responsibility. It's just constant deflection.

You had Adam Smith on the show here, earlier in the hour, the Ranking Member of the House Armed Services Committee and he said something very important. He said he didn't call for Hegseth to resign until all this deflection and just refusal to take responsibility, which in the Pentagon, in the military is 101. You have to take responsibility for your actions, hold yourself accountable and hold those below you accountable. And like so, at the top of the Pentagon, they're basically saying I did nothing wrong. This is all made up, even though it's people I picked who are turning on me.

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It's just a total lack of responsibility and accountability, which will permeate through the system.

KEILAR: His demeanor, as you watch that interview, I mean, my impression was that he seems not fully in command of the moment. He's certainly under fire even as we see the White House defending him. What was your impression of what you saw of his demeanor?

MCGURK: Honestly, I think what has come out from these insiders that this is disarray, it's chaos, it's a full-blown meltdown, I think it's reflective of that. You just -- I've worked for six secretaries of defense. I've worked for four presidents. I've never seen anything like this. With high-level appointees from the administration, these are political appointees, people that Hegseth chose, coming out and telling the American people this. So I think there's a lot more below the surface.

KEILAR: All right, we'll be looking to see if that reveals itself. Brett McGurk, thank you. Boris?

SANCHEZ: With just under two hours left in trading today, markets are seeing green right now. The Dow surging just a short time after Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent told investors that he expects the United States trade war with China to de-escalate. Moments ago, White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt said that President Trump told her earlier today that he too was optimistic about China. Leavitt then offered this status update on where potential trade deals stand.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEAVITT: There is a lot of progress being made. We now have 18 proposals on paper that have been brought to the trade team, the entire trade team meeting with 34 countries this week alone. We are moving at Trump speed to ensure these deals are made.

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SANCHEZ: CNN Business and Politics Correspondent Vanessa Yurkevich is with us now. Vanessa, obviously, this is a complicated picture because despite today's gains, the market is on the way to having its worst April in years since the Great Depression.

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that's right. And markets have been in the green all day. And the rally that you're talking about after it got out -- news got out that Secretary of the Treasury, Scott Bessent told investors in a private meeting that he expects the trade war with China to de-escalate and he said that the trade war that currently stands between the two countries is unsustainable. And you saw the Dow rise about 1,000 points. Now, the Dow is at about 772 points. The Nasdaq up about 300 points, S&P up about 100 points.

But really you have to put this all together as you said, because today's gains do not erase the volatility that we have seen in the last few weeks. And as you mentioned, the Dow is still on track to have its worst April since the Great Depression. And the International Monetary Fund also came out with its sort of economic growth outlook for the rest of the world and for the United States. And they said that they came up with this outlook under "exceptional circumstances."

They also went on to say that the swift escalation of trade tensions and extremely high levels of policy uncertainty are expected to have a significant impact on global economic activity. And so, for the United States, they expect the economy to grow by 1.8 percent. That's a revision down from what they initially expected in January there. And then on the world stage, they expect the global economy to grow by 2.8 percent. That's a revision downwards from January as well.

But looking at where investors may find safe havens for their money now, amidst this global volatility and this market volatility, gold stands out. Gold just hit a new record. $3,500 an ounce and gold has been climbing. The price of gold has been climbing. This is somewhere that economists believe will continue to be a safe haven. It is largely inflation-proof, recession-proof. It is a very strong asset among -- in the middle of economic uncertainty.

And while analysts I've spoken to believe that market volatility will continue as long as this trade war plays out, gold continues to be a safe haven for folks looking to put their money somewhere, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Vanessa Yurkevich, thank you so much for the update on Wall Street. So we have new details to share about how the Trump administration's fight against DEI on college campuses could significantly cut into scientific research funding. Plus, preparations are underway for this weekend's funeral for Pope Francis as Cardinals gather in Rome to elect his successor. That and much more coming your way, stay with us.

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SANCHEZ: We're getting new details about the ceremony surrounding the death of Pope Francis. Tomorrow, Francis' body will be moved to St. Peter's Basilica for public viewing where tens of thousands of the faithful are expected to pay their final respects. The Vatican announced today that his funeral will be held on Saturday outside in St. Peter's Square. Francis' body will be buried at Rome's Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore, making him the first Pope to be buried there in over a century.

With us now to talk about all of this is Father Edward Beck. Father, thanks so much for being with us. For some historical context, can you take us back to the conclave that appointed Pope Francis and the dynamics that were at play there?

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FATHER EDWARD BECK, ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIEST AND AUTHOR: Well, actually, I was lucky enough to be there, covering that conclave with CNN and it was quite dramatic, Boris, because really Pope Francis was not on the top of anyone's list to be elected Pope. Now, it was interesting that he wasn't, because word leaked out that he had gotten the second most votes in the previous conclave when Benedict was elected. So although he wasn't on anyone's -- people just said, well, who is that?

And then of course, Pope Francis made the joke that the Cardinals had gone to the ends of the earth to find him all the way from Argentina. So it was a quite dramatic moment. And yet, if you remember, when he came out on that balcony, it was so simple. He did something that we hadn't seen before. He asked the people to pray for him. There was this humility about him, and he simply said, buona sera. And he said, good evening to everyone. So there was a gentleness and a familiarity and the humanity about him from the very start.

SANCHEZ: Especially early on though, the more traditional wing of the church was critical about some of his decisions. Tell us more about that and about how he handled it.

BECK: Well, I think that criticism really continued right to the end of his life because some people thought that he wasn't keeping to the doctrine in a very strict way. And so, there were some bishops and even cardinals who spoke publicly against him. Some of those bishops got removed from their offices or from their diocese when they did such. And it wasn't as if -- as though Pope Francis resisted opposition. You could disagree with him, but if you undermined him, if you refuse to carry out what then he and the church had decided would be the direction, that's when he had problems with it.

And so, I think the next election would be very interesting to see whether or not those electing the new Pope will follow in the vein of Pope Francis, who's considered to have been more progressive in many areas, or if they will swing back more to kind of the theology and doctrine of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict, which would be more a swing to the "right," or more conservative traditionalist elements in the church.

SANCHEZ: It'll be fascinating to watch. Father Edward Beck, thanks so much for joining us as always.

BECK: Thank you, Boris. Good seeing you.

SANCHEZ: Of course. Brianna? KEILAR: The Supreme Court's conservative majority signaled today that it will require schools to provide opt-outs for parents who have objections to LGBTQ books read in elementary schools. If they go that route, it would continue the court's years-long push to expand religious rights. CNN's Chief Supreme Court Analyst, Joan Biskupic, is with us now on this.

Joan, these are parents in Maryland who want to be able to pull their kids from class on days where there are lessons using books with gay or transgender characters or themes in them. Tell us how the day went.

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN CHIEF SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Sure, and you're right, religious conservatives have been at a roll at the Supreme Court, and it looks like they're going to be able to notch another case. This -- it looks like the justices from the oral arguments that went for an unusually intense passionate two-and-a-half hours this morning, Brianna, it looks like they're going to rule with the parents who have challenged the Montgomery County Maryland School District over books like "The Night and the Prince" or "Uncle Bobby's Wedding" that the school had said they had -- there's no opt-out provision.

And during the course of the Q&A this morning, it emerged that really Montgomery County stands alone in not having any kind of opt-out provision. And let me give you a flavor of some of the back and forth among the justices over the discussion of "Uncle Bobby's Wedding. Justice Sam Alito said it has a clear moral message. It may be a good message. It's just that a it's a message that a lot of religious people disagree with. And Justice Sotomayor then countered, looking at two men getting married, is that a religious objection? The most they're doing here is holding hands.

So there was -- they got down into the knitty gritty of some of these books, but also the main thing they were concerned about, the majority, the conservative majority, is that parents' religious views were essentially being usurped by the discussions in the classroom. And again, these are for elementary age students, maybe as young as three and four in pre-Question^ that it emerged.

[14:25:00]

But, Justice Elena Kagan was more with Justice Sotomayor saying, how can we start drawing lines if you allow for these kinds of books? Will there be other situations that parents might object to? And the school board is saying, if we have too many parents opting out, there'll be problems with absentees, problems with how the learning actually goes on in the classroom. Justice Kagan said at one point, if you will allow this, won't we have opt-outs all over the place?

So, it was a very heated situation. But I have to say, what was exposed was how there's a really strong six justice majority ready to decide with the parents who have objected to this. And you noted in your opening that conservatives have been on a winning streak here. And you'll remember that it was just a couple years ago that the same six to three court upheld a football coach's right to say a prayer at a public high school football game on the 50-yard line after the game. So I think just much more regard for religious conservatives coming down the road, Brianna.

KEILAR: Yeah. Joan Biskupic, thank you so much for detailing what happened today. And still to come, the National Institutes of Health says it will pull medical research funding from universities that have diversity and inclusion programs and any boycotts of Israeli companies. Up next, what that means for schools across the country. Plus, a town hall turns into a shouting match. A Florida Congressman comes face to face with angry constituents demanding answers about the Trump administration's sweeping federal cuts. We'll have details ahead on "CNN News Central."

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