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WH: Trump Remains "Strongly Behind" Hegseth Amid "Smear Campaign"; WH: No Tolerance For Anyone Leaking Sensitive Information; Newsom: Dems Risk Appearance Of Defending Notorious Gang; Pope Francis' Funeral To Be Held Saturday In St. Peter's Square; Sources: Bessent Told Investors He Expects U.S.-China Trade War To De-escalate; White House: Trump Optimistic About Trade Deal With China. Aired 3- 3:30p ET

Aired April 22, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:00:13]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: President Trump's Treasury Secretary with a surprising suggestion saying the trade war with China could be unsustainable. The news helped to push stocks higher, but there was a major warning today, too, about the global impact of these tariffs.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Plus, signaling he won't back down. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth makes clear he will not resign despite a new controversy over a second Signal group chat on his personal phone. The White House standing by him amid the criticism.

And a new report highlighting the negative effects of social media on teenagers and some teens now say they're taking steps to prevent mental health issues.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: Today, the White House is offering a vigorous defense of the Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth after reports that he shared sensitive military plans with his wife, his brother and others in a second Signal group chat. And after some of Hegseth's former top advisors warned about turmoil inside the Pentagon under Hegseth's leadership. Here's Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Let me reiterate the President stands strongly behind Secretary Hegseth in the change that he is bringing. They were Pentagon employees who leaked against their boss to news agencies in this room and it's been clear since day one from this administration that we are not going to tolerate individuals who leak to the mainstream media particularly when it comes to sensitive information.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: CNN's Jeff Zeleny is live for us at the White House with the latest.

Jeff, what are you learning?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, sensitive information is what is at issue here. If you think back and sort of look beyond the allegations of a smear campaign the questions are why the Defense Secretary decided to put sensitive information perhaps classified information about strikes on Yemen into a group chat, if you will, sharing it with his wife, sharing it with his brother who works for the Pentagon, his lawyer and others, and why was - what judgment was he using to do that.

Now, the White House and the Defense Secretary have tried to deflect from all of these questions saying they are part of a smear campaign, but answering very little about why these questions are being asked in the first place about the judgment of the Defense Secretary. This is all coming amid many more questions at the Defense Secretary several top officials who are loyal to this Defense Secretary have been reassigned or removed from the Pentagon amidst a leak investigation.

So, the bottom line to all of this as the presidency reaches its 100 days in office next week, there is considerable turmoil here at the Defense Department. So, the President is standing by him, there's no question about that. But behind the scenes there are deep questions about how far this can go on.

So, the Senate also concerned when they come back into town next week after their Easter recess expect these questions to continue. But the Defense Secretary says he's being smeared and the White House is standing by him. Brianna?

KEILAR: All right. Jeff Zeleny, thank you for that report.

CNN's Natasha Bertrand is with us now live from the Pentagon.

And Natasha, Secretary Hegseth confirmed today he did share information on a second Signal group chat. What did he say about the kind of information that he shared?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brianna. Secretary Hegseth went on Fox this morning and he did acknowledge that he had this second Signal group chat with his wife, and his brother and his personal lawyer. He said that it was more about communicating media strategy with some of his closest advisors that he, again, denied that he was sharing any kind of classified information. Here's a bit of what he said this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: What was shared over Signal then and now, however you characterize it, was informal unclassified coordinations. In this point, those folks who were leaking, who have been pushed out of the building, are now attempting to leak and sabotage the President's agenda.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BERTRAND: So, those individuals that he's referring to who were fired last week are two of his closest longtime advisors Dan Caldwell who was a senior advisor and Darin Selnick who was the Pentagon's deputy chief of staff as well as the deputy Pentagon - deputy secretary of defense's chief of staff Colin Carroll - it's a mouthful there. They were all fired following a leak investigation and Hegseth is now accusing them of trying to undermine him by revealing things in the press that are unflattering.

[15:05:01]

It's worth noting here, however, that, you know, these are people that were brought in, in large part by Secretary Hegseth. And while the White House has said that the entire Pentagon is working against the Secretary, again, these are individuals that were longtime close associates of Secretary Hegseth that were given jobs by him. So, it's unclear at this point why he's trying to blame them for his apparent participation in this Signal group chat in which he shared this information. But it seems like at this point he's remaining defiant. He understands that President Trump is at least for now standing behind him, Brianna.

KEILAR: All right. At least for now. Natasha Bertrand live for us at the Pentagon. Thank you. Boris?

SANCHEZ: With us now to discuss is Marc Short. He's the former chief of staff to Vice President Mike Pence.

Marc, I wonder what you make of all of this, specifically the fact that as Natasha pointed out these were staffers that Hegseth has known for a long time and he's essentially accusing them of betraying him and trying to block the President's agenda.

MARC SHORT, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO VP MIKE PENCE: Right. I think in this case, these are political appointees that Pete likely hand- picked. These are not career government officials working inside the Pentagon.

For the life of me, Boris, I don't understand why they haven't simply said, look, this was a mistake. We put in protocols to make sure this doesn't happen again, and allows them to move on. I think there's probably a lot of things the White House would rather be talking about, like recruitment being up, the airstrikes against the Houthis going well.

There are things that they could be actually promoting that's happening over at the Pentagon. But as long as they're trying to have an argument of whether this was really classified or not classified, this voice is just going to keep going.

SANCHEZ: President Trump himself has repeated sort of that refrain that the operation against the Houthis was successful, and he leans into that. But I wonder, with the stuff we're hearing from the Secretary about leaks and about eliminating leaks and that sort of view that there are people trying to block him and the administration from remaking the Pentagon, whether Trump at some point sees this as a political liability.

SHORT: I think that the President still has faith in Pete. I think that the President doesn't want to sort of have it - have somebody dismiss this early on. It appears as if it's a mistake. And I think he knows, probably from the first administration experience, that even if you release somebody of their duty, it's not as if some of the controversy goes away. And so, I think he's one not - he's wanted to dig in, as you know, and I think he's wanted to double down. But I don't think that having this be the front and center of the news story is helpful to the administration. And that's why, again, I don't understand why there isn't just a concession that, look, this was a mistake. We've put in protocols to make sure it doesn't happen again and we're moving on.

SANCHEZ: How much of that digging in do you think is a reflection of the amount of political capital that it took to actually get Hegseth confirmed?

SHORT: Yes, I think it's a great question, Boris. I think the reality is a lot of people assume that - that he was not going to get confirmed. And when he dug in and got support to get across the finish line, I'm sure that helps to reinvigorate and say, look, I can withstand this, and I'm going to fight for harder.

But again, I think that American people have a lot of grace, and this is one that - I think one of the reasons the story still alive is because a lot of Americans have texted people and had it as a mistake, right? There's a very relatable story, but it's one that, you know, you don't want to see the leader of the Defense Department texting or sending via Signal of war plans.

And so I think that, for a lot of Americans, it's like, we can understand, but, you know, just admit it's a mistake, and we put in protocols, so it won't happen again.

SANCHEZ: To your point, I don't think a lot of Americans have access to the kind of ...

SHORT: Sure. But a lot ..

SANCHEZ: ... information that he does.

SHORT: Yes. Well, unless we can - that's why they understand. It's like, I'm not in a position of making that sort of a mistake. They've made the same mistake of texting something they shouldn't have texted a wrong person, but nothing, like you said, war plans.

SANCHEZ: What is your view of his strategy, his media strategy - taking on this very animated approach and going on Fox News and sort of making this about the enemies of Donald Trump, the enemies of the administration?

SHORT: Again, as you said during the confirmation process, I think that was very successful for him in rallying Republican supporters behind him. I'm not sure that it's great to have the Secretary of Defense, you know, there with the Easter Bunny at the White House Egg Roll as the venue for having some of these defense. But, you know, look, I said what I think should be their proper protocol to get this behind them.

SANCHEZ: Do you think that might be the approach we'll see moving forward?

SHORT: I don't think so at this point.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

SHORT: I think that they've decided they're going to double down and keep fighting this. And I think it's going to continue to keep the story and narrative alive, and that's why, you know, your network and others continue to cover it, because they're not moving on from it.

SANCHEZ: I do want to ask you on something completely separate ...

SHORT: Yes.

SANCHEZ: ... to get your view of things on immigration. And specifically, I wanted to get your thoughts on Gov. Gavin Newsom coming out and saying to Democrats that they have to be careful with their messaging around the deportation of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the Maryland man that the administration acknowledges was mistakenly deported back to El Salvador.

I wonder if you think his view and the calculus from the Trump administration that this is a fight that they want is a winning one, in the sense that, for voters, this argument about due process and the allegations against him from the administration, of which they provided very limited proof, is a winning.

[15:10:08]

SHORT: So I think that the administration should follow the court orders, first and foremost. And I think that there's actually been now several conservative judges, including some Trump picks from the district-level upstream court, who have ruled against them. So I think that they're getting into somewhat dangerous territory by violating court orders.

Having said that, I would agree that this fight is actually - it's been good for Chris Van Hollen. It's been good for Donald Trump. Because if, basically, a lot of Americans look at this and say a wife- beater who had gone before 17 different judges had a lot more due process than a lot of people in actually America get. And the fact that that's who the Democrats want to wrap themselves around - I don't think it's really good for a broad message appeal for Democrats.

And for President Trump, it's a heck of a lot better to be talking about immigration - where the American people support him - as opposed to $12 trillion in market capitalization has been lost because of his tariff policy.

SANCHEZ: To be fair, and just to be clear to viewers - his wife pulled back that claim that she had made in court. She didn't show up to court to process it, nevertheless ...

SHORT: She filed an order because she clearly didn't feel it's safe.

SANCHEZ: But she didn't follow up on it. She said that they resolved their issues.

Marc Short, nevertheless, appreciate the perspective. Thanks for joining us.

SHORT: Thanks, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Of course. Still to come, we have new details on Pope Francis' funeral as cardinals start to gather in Rome to begin the process of electing his successor. A live view at Vatican City - we'll take you there in just moments.

And the stock market reacting positively to the White House's optimism over a trade war de-escalation, the prospects of a potential deal with China.

And later, we're going to speak with a best-selling author who says that his speech at the U.S. Naval Academy was abruptly canceled an hour before he was scheduled to speak, over his potential criticism of policies that had books pulled from the Academy. We'll discuss in just moments.

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KEILAR: Today we are getting some new details about funeral arrangements for Pope Francis. The Vatican says the late pontiff's body will move to St. Peter's Basilica tomorrow, where mourners can take part in a public viewing.

SANCHEZ: Francis will lie in state until Saturday, when the Church will hold a funeral mass in St. Peter's Square.

CNN's Anderson Cooper is live for us at the Vatican. And Anderson, I wonder what you're seeing there now. What more you're learning about the upcoming funeral?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Yes. We're seeing more people coming. We've seen really more people kind of coming to St. Peter's Square really throughout the day. It's quieter now - it's nighttime here - but there are many more people coming to Rome, coming to Vatican City in the coming days.

So many people will want to come and view Pope Francis' body. Some 300,000 people came when I was here back in 2005 for John Paul II. Tens of thousands came for Pope Benedict, though he had stepped down as pope by the time he died.

So nobody knows exactly how many people may come to see Pope Francis, but certainly law enforcement authorities here are anticipating a very, very large crowd on Saturday. Also, obviously, a lot of world leader, that funeral that's going to begin at 10 A.M. local time here in Vatican City, which is 4 A.M. on - in the East Coast of the United States.

KEILAR: And Anderson, it's really interesting because we're getting some insight into what the Pope was thinking about in his final days through this op-ed that he wrote before his death, which was published today. Can you tell us about that?

COOPER: Yes, it's interesting. I mean, Pope Francis had been very vocal about the war between Israel and Hamas. And in this op-ed - which, as you said, was posted - which published posthumously - he called for peace. He called for a peace settlement between Israel and the Palestinians. He talked about also his support for a two-state solution. He said that is the only path forward for true peace in the region - two states living side by side.

It's a message which we heard a lot from. He was very outspoken about this over the last year or year and a half or so, as this conflict has been going on. But clearly so important to him that this was something he wanted to be, really, his last words - published posthumously right now, which came out just today.

SANCHEZ: Yes. The Pope also wrote the preamble for a book that's set to be published, where he talks about mortality. What are you learning about that?

COOPER: Yes. Yes, it's really interesting. I want to read it to you. This as you said - these are words that Pope Francis wrote back in February for the preamble to a book by Cardinal Angelo Scola. The book is called "Waiting for a New Beginning, Reflections on Old Age."

And in it, Pope Francis wrote: "Death is not the end of everything, but the beginning of something." He went on to say: "A new beginning," is what he calls it. And he went on to say: "Because eternal life, which those who love already experience on Earth in the occupations of every day, is starting something that will not end. And it is precisely for this reason that it is a 'new' beginning, because we will experience something that we had never fully experienced: eternity."

Some of the words of Pope Francis.

And, you know, there is a lot of mystery, obviously, in this faith and a lot of mystery about what happens afterward. Pope Francis has talked about going home, about returning to the - his Heavenly Father.

[15:20:06]

So it's lovely to hear these final words that he wrote for this book.

SANCHEZ: Yep. Yes, really touching, given the news of the week.

Anderson Cooper from Vatican City, thank you so much.

Coming up: a stark warning from the International Monetary Fund - why the institution says that President Trump's tariffs are going to hurt economies in the U.S. and just about everywhere else.

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[15:25:09]

KEILAR: The White House sounding pretty optimistic about the prospect of a trade deal with China. Just a short time ago, White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt said that President Trump told her the situation with China was, quote, "doing very well."

Earlier, stocks began surging on news that the Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessent, told investors he expected the trade war with China to de-escalate.

With us now is Scott Lincicome, Vice President of General Economics at the Cato Institute.

Thank you so much for being with us.

First off, I just wonder what your reaction is to what the Treasury Secretary reportedly said here in this closed-door meeting. This is certainly what Wall Street wanted to hear. Is it realistic, though?

SCOTT LINCICOME, VICE PRESIDENT, GENERAL ECONOMICS AT CATO INSTITUTE: Yes. I mean, I don't like that it's a closed-door meeting getting this news out. But as Treasury Secretary is absolutely correct that this type of trade conflict between the two largest economies on the planet, with still trillion of dollars in global trade at stake, just simply can't continue.

So that's nice to acknowledge the truth, but it's a long way from actually figuring out how we get out of the big mess that the President has put us into.

KEILAR: Headline overnight, as you're well aware, is that it was the Dow's worst April performance since the Great Depression. How significant is that?

LINCICOME: It is significant. I mean, I think the market and investors are shocked by the scale and speed of these tariffs. I mean, compared to what Trump did the first time around, you're talking about 10 times the size of the tariffs and about 10 times as fast. And it's just simply impossible for globally integrated businesses to adapt to that kind of shock. And you're seeing it in some of the soft data that's coming out from the regional Federal Reserve banks, consumer sentiment reports. And now it's leaking into the hard data - that things are kind of falling off a cliff here. And so it makes pretty good sense economically and politically to see the White House trying to walk some of this path.

KEILAR: Let's listen now to what the Press Secretary - the White House Press Secretary said this afternoon about trade deals that will need to be negotiated to get past these tariffs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LEAVITT: There is a lot of progress being made. We now have 18 proposals on paper that have been brought to the trade team. The entire trade team meeting with 34 countries this week alone. We are moving at Trump speed to ensure these deals are made.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Scott, let's put this into context for people, right? Because India's finance minister said yesterday that they're aiming for autumn for the first phase of their trade deal with the U.S. So what is Trump speed on 34 bespoke deals realistically?

LINCICOME: It's totally unrealistic that we're going to see comprehensive trade deals for even a dozen countries - no less, three dozen countries. The reality is that trade policy is tricky stuff. The average U.S. trade agreement took about 18 months to negotiate, another couple of years to sign and implement.

So, it's unlikely that we're going to see anything that's that deep in terms of its coverage - the - whether we're talking about non-tariff barriers or regulatory barriers - but also just in terms of the sheer number of these deals. That's highly unlikely.

And of course, we have to think about whether we're actually getting real commitments that governments follow through on, or whether we're just getting promises to deal - like China made in that big phase one deal back during the first Trump administration.

KEILAR: I also wonder what you think about this kerfuffle between Trump and the Fed, between Jerome Powell. And Karoline Leavitt spoke to this a little bit at the briefing. She said the President believes that they - the Fed - have been making moves and taking action in the name of politics rather than the name of what's right in the - what's right for the American economy.

The President has the right to express his displeasure with the Fed. We all have the right, right? That's the First Amendment - to express any displeasure that we have. But when he does it, it has a huge effect. And there's also this question of ultimately, is he going to try to fire the guy?

Can you explain just to - you know, just to - just explain just to everyday Americans why they should care about Jerome Powell and the independence of the Fed Chair?

LINCICOME: Well, Fed - sure. So, you know, Federal Reserve independence is a big part of what makes the United States a great place to invest. It's one of the reasons why U.S. stock markets have outperformed the rest of the world.

[15:30:05]

It's why the U.S. dollar remains the world's reserve currency.