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Sources Say, Trump Soliciting Feedback on Hegseth Amid Chaos; Elon Musk to Step Back from DOGE as Tesla's Profits Fall; FDA Says It Will Phase Out Petroleum-Based Food Dyes. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired April 23, 2025 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, some great reporting from our Natasha Bertrand who is reporting that President Trump is soliciting feedback from those around him about Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth amid the reports of chaos in the Pentagon chief's inner circle. The new drama includes more fallout from a Signal group chat a second one that he, his personal phone and included his wife.

So, let's get to how Americans feel about all this. And how do we do that? Well, we've got our Chief Data Reporter Harry Enten running the numbers for us. What do people think about Hegseth?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA REPORTER: Yes. I mean, look, Pete Hegseth is a problem for Donald Trump. And the way we can see this pretty clearly is, you know, you sort of set the baseline level that you'd expect in terms of popularity in the Trump administration. That's Trump himself. He's at minus five points on net favorability. That's how hot, but not terrible.

Look at where Pete Hegseth is, way underwater, at minus 14 percentage points, nearly 10 points below where Donald Trump is. If Trump is par, Peter Hegseth is way, way, way off the reservation at this particular point, so much more unpopular than you, than you would expect of the average cabinet member.

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And indeed, Pete Hegseth at this particular point is the least liked cabinet member in Donald Trump's administration. In fact, he's the least like secretary of defense. You have to go all the way back to Donald Rumsfeld back at the end of the Bush administration to find a secretary of defense who is less like than Pete Hegseth is currently,

SIDNER: This is the person over the most powerful military in the world. That is saying a lot. It's almost three times more unpopular than Donald Trump at this point.

So, what is it that people think of Pete Hegseth after all of this has come out?

ENTEN: Yes. I mean, look, should you be using, you know, Signal essentially to be discussing military plans? And this, I think, sort of gives the game away. Using Signal to discuss military plans is not appropriate. You rarely find three quarters of Americans agreeing on anything, but they agree on this, that using Signal to discuss military plans is a big no-no.

How about among Republicans? Even there, even there, you get a majority of Republicans agreeing that using Signal to discuss military plans is not appropriate.

The bottom line is that Pete Hegseth is a headache for Donald Trump, a headache that personally I don't think he needs, because Donald Trump is not involved in this and yet he's getting brought up because it's a member of his administration. He is a headache and he is potentially dragging Donald Trump down.

SIDNER: Let's look at sort of what the chances are that he may not be able to keep his job. Now, right now, we're getting new reporting saying that Trump has started checking around, making phone calls, talking about him. But so far, publicly, he's been behind Hegseth all the way. What are the chances that changes?

ENTEN: Yes. Okay, so let's take a look. What's the chance that Hegseth is out before July as secretary of defense per the betting markets on Monday, it was just 7 percent. Now, look where we're at. We're at 30 percent, a massive increase.

So, look, chances are Pete Hegseth will still be around come July, but the chance that he isn't has gone way up. And now there's a real question. That's why Donald Trump is sort of checking around. We'll just have to wait and see. And we're heading more towards that 50-50 mark. That may be Pete Hegseth's time at the Pentagon is winding down. The number of Scaramuccis is -- we'll see.

SIDNER: We'll see. Anthony Scaramucci certainly is listening to this, looking at his watch as well.

Thank you so much, Harry Enten. Over to you, John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. With us now is CNN Senior Military Analyst, former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO and partner of the Carlisle Group, an international investment firm, Admiral James Stavridis. Admiral, thank you so much for being with us.

One of the reasons people are asking questions about Pete Hegseth is this new report that he was on a second Signal group chat, this one from his personal phone where he shared military plans among others with his wife and his brother. This is how the secretary explained that Signal chat. Listen.

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PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: What was shared over signal then and now, however, you characterize it, was informal, unclassified coordinations, for media coordination, other things. That's what I've said from the beginning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Informal for media coordinations and other things. This is what The New York Times is reporting this morning about what that was, details about American strikes in Yemen that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth shared on a commercial chat app came from U.S. Central Command through a secure government system designed for sending classified information. That's according to an official and a person familiar with the conversation.

So, how does his claim of it being informal media coordinations land with you?

ADM. JAMES STAVRIDIS (RET.), CNN SENIOR MILITARY ANALYST: It cannot be true, and the source of the actual information that was passed came across what's called the SIPRNET, John, which is the highly classified, appropriate to use in this circumstance. But then, evidently, and I think this is reliable reporting, the secretary of defense of the United States takes this highly classified information and puts it on an unclassified server, strike one. Then he passes it on a Signal chat to his wife, unbelievable, to his lawyer, can't figure that one out, and to others, that is strike two. I think everyone is saying, okay, there's probably more to come here. There could well be a strike three.

My bottom line, if I'm former major in the Army, served very honorably in combat, Pete Hegseth, I'd be looking in the mirror and saying, maybe it's time for me to acknowledge what's going on here.

BERMAN: You're not satisfied with his explanation?

STAVRIDIS: That would be putting it mildly. And I think when you have essentially the entire national security structure of the United States talking about this, and I am in contact with people both in the government, outside the government, people are just completely scratching their heads about this.

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And, finally, go back to what we saw just a moment ago. How do you get 76 percent of the American public to agree on anything? I guess you take highly classified information and put it on an unclassified server. Three out of four Americans agreed that this is not right.

BERMAN: Let me ask you about what's not happening in London now. Secretary of State Marco Rubio, Steve Witkoff, who's in charge of negotiations with Ukraine, not going to the newest round of negotiations over, you know, ending Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Why? Apparently the administration unhappy with how Ukraine is responding to what's being called the final offer from the U.S., the final plan from the U.S. for peace there.

Now, CNN has is reporting that part of this plan is that it's saying there will be official recognition of Russia's ownership of Crimea, which, of course, they invaded several years ago. Others, including Barak Ravid of Axios reporting it also requires essential, you know, de facto recognition of where the lines are now in Ukraine, the Russian occupation of different places there.

How do you think Ukraine should feel about this as a final offer?

STAVRIDIS: Well, let's back up and simply say it is a good thing that at least we are edging towards some kind of a negotiation, potentially have a ceasefire before that. All those are good things. And we ought to credit the administration for working hard to get there. Then you get into the details of the deal.

Personally, I think, ultimately, we are going to have to recognize the military reality of a very strong Russian position in Crimea and the four provinces that constitute the land bridge to the Rodina, to mother Russia. That's just a reality, John. And whether you start with a formal recognition or you end up there, or you end up with the two sides disagreeing about it, but forces are fixed in place, all that is to be determined.

But I, for one, give the administration credit for pushing both sides to the negotiating table. And I think if the Trump administration puts equal pressure, key phrase, equal pressure on both Russia and Ukraine, they can get these sides to a ceasefire, then a negotiation. Then we'll figure out exactly what the modalities of geography are.

BERMAN: We will see if either side moves toward the center on this.

Admiral James Stavridis, thank you so much for being with us this morning. I appreciate your time, as always. Kate?

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Also new this morning, Elon Musk is now telling investors he's going to spend significantly less time on his work with DOGE starting next month. The timing worth noting, Musk started with the Trump administration saying DOGE's moves to slash the federal workforce would do nothing short of restoring democracy was so important. But now, just after Tesla reported a stunning plunge in profits and has seen its stock take a dive this year, the Tesla CEO is now saying this in an earnings call.

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ELON MUSK, CEO, TESLA: Starting probably in next month, May, my time allocation to DOGE will drop significantly. I think I'll continue to spend, you know, a day or two per week on government matters for as long as the president would like me to do so and as long as it is useful.

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BOLDUAN: And joining me right now to talk much more about what DOGE is doing is Max Stier, president and CEO of the nonpartisan, nonprofit Partnership for Public Service. This is an organization focused on building a better government and a stronger democracy. He has been working for that for a very long time.

And you and I have known each other for years, Max. Thank you for being here. You have spent your career working to make government better. MAX STIER, PRESIDENT AND CEO, PARTNERSHIPS FOR PUBLIC SERVICE: You are nonpartisan.

STIER: Exactly.

BOLDUAN: How do you describe the DOGE approach to cuts and what they call finding -- making government more efficient?

STIER: So, I think it's been the opposite of what they claim. The balance sheet is deeply in the red. They have created way more waste than they have actually gotten rid of any problems. We do need to see real reform in our government, and they're taking us in the exact opposite direction.

They've walked in without any strategy. They have focused on firing career federal experts without any understanding of who the good ones are and who the bad ones are, who may be too many one occupation or not. It's just about bean counting, getting rid of people, cutting costs that are not actually real costs. It's a little bit like the person who doesn't pay their electricity bill because they want to save the money and then they sit around in the dark.

This has been an unbelievably destructive effort to our federal government.

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The harms are going to be with us for a very long time. And it's the federal workforce and, more importantly, the American people that are suffering.

BOLDUAN: Part of, I think, the issue for people is putting their -- getting their arms around how much impact it will have, is having, because it is happening so fast. You made a point recently that I think is definitely worth highlighting. Describing this as an effort to cut costs, you say, is just wrong. It's actually going to cost more.

STIER: Absolutely. There is more waste that they're creating in the way that they're doing this, what everyone might think about where they want to cut. The way they are doing it is the most harmful possible way, both, again, for the workforce itself and for the results that the American people deserve. So, you're going to see harms for, you know, folks that want to buy, you know, their hamburger meat and know their kids are not going to get sick. In the grocery store, veterans, farmers, you name it, the American public, writ large is going to see decreased service and the American taxpayer's going to have to pay more for less.

BOLDUAN: One aspect of your work that I have seen firsthand and really opened my eyes is the service to America Awards. It's an event to increase public awareness of the important work that goes -- that comes from civil servants.

STIER: Yes. BOLDUAN: That is often completely unknown. One example, Michael Lewis highlighted this, the author, is a government worker works for the Department of Labor, and he comes up with a better way to analyze a mine in order to make it safer to protect from roof fall-ins, which is where all the fatalities come from in terms of mine work.

STIER: Yes.

BOLDUAN: And he is credited with saving tens of thousands of lives in mines.

This is a government worker with the Department of Labor who came up with that. Your awards highlight that taught me about it. And these are the same people that are now being fired.

STIER: Correct.

BOLDUAN: What are you hearing from them?

STIER: Well, I mean, it's deeply sad you have that exactly right. These are people who've dedicated their lives to helping the American people, worth noting that a third of them are veterans. This is a service-oriented culture. People who've been in the military want to continue to serve, so they go into the civil service.

They're purpose-driven. Michael says something that is powerful, which is. It's the life well lived because you're serving others.

BOLDUAN: But that's not the message you hear from Elon Musk.

STIER: No, it's not. And it's an enormous mistake.

I mean, it would be true in any environment. There's no management situation I've ever seen where the right thing to do is to alienate and enrage the people who have to get the work done. And that's effectively what they've done.

That's poor management in the private sector. It's worse management in the public sector when the people are there to actually serve the public. Again, it's about purpose and what they're doing is preventing people who want to help from being able to actually help. They're sidelining them, they're treating them terribly. They're distracting them in terms of, you know, telling them they have to summarize the things that they've done the prior week, and that goes into the shredder.

I mean, there is no workforce, there's no human being that deserves this kind of treatment, and certainly not people who are ultimately there to help the American people. And it's going to hurt us. Again the damage being done, it is -- I look and search hard for the right word. It is arson of a public asset, and it's something that we are going to have to pay for for decades to come.

BOLDUAN: Max, thank you very much for coming in.

STIER: Thank you. BOLDUAN: It is very good to see you.

STIER: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Your work is so important. Thank you. Sara?

SIDNER: An incredible statement, arson of a public asset.

All right, ahead, your favorite candy, the cereal or drink may soon look a bit different because the Food and Drug Administration announcing it will phase out petroleum-based food dyes. Companies use these dyes to give food and drinks brighter colors and make them more vibrant and sometimes more appealing to people and children, especially the FDA says it plans to authorize four new natural color additives in the coming weeks.

Yesterday, we asked you to share your questions about these dyes. So, let's bring back our Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta for some answers for us.

Sanjay, thank you for being here. We've got Matilda from Lafayette, Colorado, who wants to know what's the difference between red dye 3 and red dye 40 and why is only one of those outlawed.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. This is a really important question. Most people have heard of red dye 3. By the way, Sara, I've learned so much about dyes over the past several days. This is red dye 3. That's what gives the cherry, that unnatural color.

SIDNER: Are those maraschino cherries?

GUPTA: Those are maraschino cherries. If you have something that looks like it's not a color in nature, it's probably a petroleum-based dye.

But red dye 3 you know, 30 years ago when it was approved, it was actually found even at that time to have a link to cancers in animal. And there was a clause in the FDA that basically said if there's any association with cancers in humans or animals, it should not be allowed. And yet here it is still 30 years later. Now, the Biden administration actually banned it, but, you know, that takes a few months for it to happen.

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So, that one we've known a lot about.

This is red dye 40. That gives you that color. Not as much known about its associations with cancer. There wasn't studies that showed that, but there have been studies showing that it actually has a relationship with neurobehavioral problems in children. So, California actually banned red dye number 40 some time ago.

So, you know, these are all petroleum-based dyes. They're slightly different chemical structures. Some have more data around it than the other. But the headline really, for Matilda, is that most of these dyes over the months and years to come are going to be banned.

SIDNER: I feel like I'm playing the guessing game with food because I think that was ginger. Am I right?

GUPTA: Oh, no. This is strawberry frosting. Strawberry frosting.

SIDNER: I couldn't see, but, okay, fine. Unfortunately, I like them both so I need to watch it.

All right, Rick from Boise, Idaho asking this, will petroleum-based food dyes completely leave the body? That's a great question.

GUPTA: That's a great question and I wish I had a very clear answer on this. I think the answer is we don't know for sure. What studies have shown in animals when it comes to these dyes is that they do seem to get metabolized and excreted very, very quickly. We could probably guess that the same would be true for humans, but we don't know for sure.

I think one of the larger concerns, though, is for kids especially who have grown up in a world with these dyes, is there a cumulative effect from all these dyes on their body? Again, we don't know for sure, but I think, again, there's enough of a concern here that we're talking about it today, and that we're seeing these new actions from the HHS, from FDA,

SIDNER: I have this question myself, Lulu from Winter Haven, Florida, asked this, why do does the U.S. continue to use dyes in additives that Europe has long ago banned?

GUPTA: Philosophically, I think in the United States, the way the FDA has approached things is, said, show us the cause and effect. You say something is harmful, show us that that's the cause and this is the effect. In Europe, many places around the world, including Canada, I think the philosophy is more the precautionary principle. We don't know for sure. And, by the way, these dyes, they don't have any nutritional value, so we're not necessarily giving up anything nutritionally. We're giving up aesthetics when you talk about this.

So, this cereal, for example, is a good example of what I'm talking about. You can buy this same product in Europe, but instead of petroleum-based dyes, the dyes are watermelon juice, carrot juice, blueberry juice. That is the precautionary principle.

By the way, this is a big topic of discussion among the FDA, you know, in decades in the past, and I'm sure it'll be part of the discussion going forward.

SIDNER: It should be part of the discussion. A lot of people are curious about it.

Thank you so much, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. It's always a pleasure to see you.

GUPTA: Got it. SIDNER: All right. Brand new this morning, for the first time, Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro details the horrifying arson attack on his home that he and his family had to flee to save their lives.

And former Alaska Governor and Republican Vice Presidential Nominee Sarah Palin loses her defamation retrial against The New York Times. Details on that ahead.

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BOLDUAN: This just into CNN, evacuations have now been lifted in New Jersey. A wildfire exploded across parts of Ocean County, Tuesday. More than 3,000 residents were evacuated. Parts of the Garden State Parkway were closed. The highway is also now reopened in both directions. Officials say the blaze grew to more than 85,000 acres overnight. Thankfully, no injuries reported.

Also new this morning, Pennsylvania's Governor Josh Shapiro opening up about the terrifying arson attack at the governor's residence ten days ago. He and his family had just finished hosting a Passover Seder at the time, and in an essay that he's just published this morning in The New York Times, Shapiro wrote this in part, saying, this experience has made me more determined than ever to not only welcome people of all faiths back to the governor's residence, but also to do my part to address the political division and violence in America today.

Now, Shapiro also said that he refuses to live in fear and will begin sleeping at the residence again soon. John?

BERMAN: All right. This morning, thousands of mourners are making their way to St. Peter's Basilica to pay their final respects to Pope Francis. Today is the first of three days for the public viewing. The funeral will be Saturday.

Let's get right to CNN's Ben Wedeman in Rome for this next step in this process, this really several day process of morning, Ben.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So, what we are seeing, John, is thousands and thousands of people coming to St. Peter's Basilica to file through there and see, the body of Pope Francis line in a very simple wooden coffin, which is a break from tradition. Usually, the popes would be put in three coffins, one of lead, one of ash, and one of cypress. But reflective of Pope Francis' desire for simplicity and humility, it's just a basic wooden coffin.

Now, I live not far from here, and I oftentimes bicycle through this area, but today, the crowds are so thick. There are so many people, to the north of here, the main road from Piazza del Risorgimento and from this way as well, thousands and thousands of people lining up.

Now, the doors opened four mourners the public at 11:00 A.M. That's about four hours ago. And since then, they're going to be open until midnight tonight. Tomorrow, they'll open at 7:00 A.M. in the morning until midnight again, also the case on Friday before, of course, final preparations are made for the funeral of Pope Francis, which will begin at 10:00 A.M. on Saturday.

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But, certainly, what we've seen, I mean, I was here for the death of John Paul II, for the resignation of Benedict the 16th, but certainly this kind of crowd I saw back in 2005 when Pope John Paul II died.

But it's interesting, the timing. Many of the people who are here we've spoken with, were here to attend the Easter services, and many of them were supposed to leave. But they said they're postponing their departure so they can be here for the funeral and perhaps, if they're lucky, stay for the conclave and see who the next pope is. John?

BERMAN: Yes, a very meaningful time to be here, to be sure.

Ben Wedeman, great to have you there. Thank you very much. A brand new hour CNN News Central starts right now.