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Mourners Pay Respects to Pope Francis; President Trump Blinks on Tariffs?. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired April 23, 2025 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:42]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Did he just blink? President Donald Trump appearing to retreat from two major threats, sky-high tariffs on China and firing Fed Chair Jerome Powell.

Wall Street rising higher in approval of Trump's latest comments. So what's next in the tariff war? We will discuss.

Plus: lying in state, mourners now paying their respects to Pope Francis, as the Vatican prepares for the pontiff's funeral and cardinals prepare for a conclave to decide the next leader of the Catholic Church.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And a sitting Republican senator wants to hold congressional hearings about a 9/11 conspiracy theory. We will talk to a first responder from that tragic day.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SANCHEZ: Art of the yield? Markets are surging after President Trump signals he's going to back off steep tariffs on China and his attacks on the Fed.

And, this morning, he said this about trade talks:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We are going to have a fair deal with China. It's going to be fair.

QUESTION: Are you talking to them actively now?

TRUMP: Actively. Everything's active. Everybody wants to be a part of what we're doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: This comes as CNN is learning the pressure has been building on Trump to de-escalate, the CEOs of Walmart, Target, Home Depot and Lowe's apparently telling Trump that his tariffs could lead to empty shelves.

CNN's Kevin Liptak is at the White House for us. So, Kevin, what more are you hearing from the president?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, and it does appear as if there is now this internal campaign under way to try and instill in the president some knowledge of the real-world effects that this trade war is having.

And when it comes to that meeting that he held on Monday with the executives of some of these retail chains, the message was pretty stark, one of the CEOs, the CEO of Walmart, saying that essentially this trade war had already caused disruptions in his supply chain. They could worsen by the summer.

And, of course, just a day after that, the president saying that he could see himself substantially lowering the tariff rate on China from its current rate of 145 percent. The question now, of course, is when exactly he would do that. And when you talk to White House officials, they say they cannot foresee the president cutting that rate if China doesn't take its own action to ease some of the trade war.

You hear President Trump there saying that conversations are active with China, but it's not entirely clear just how active they are. We have reported that Trump is having some trouble getting President Xi Jinping on the telephone to start these trade negotiations in earnest.

And, in fact, we heard from Scott Bessent, the treasury secretary, just about an hour ago, who said that there would have to be some serious de-escalation between Washington and Beijing before talks can actually proceed. So how that unfolds remains to be seen.

Now, on this other matter, this question of whether or not President Trump was going to fire Jay Powell, the chair of the Federal Reserve, he had been warning about this for the last several weeks, including on TRUTH Social, saying that his termination couldn't come quickly enough.

That had caused some alarm among some of his advisers, who were warning him, one, that this could cause some serious market turmoil, and, two, that it could lead to a prolonged legal battle that no one in the White House was particularly confident that they would win.

The president's message was very different on this yesterday. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: No, I have no intention of firing him. It's just a perfect time to lower interest rates. If he doesn't, is it the end? No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIPTAK: So, the president there saying that he won't terminate Jay Powell.

Of course, Powell has about a year left in his term. There's no indication that the Fed is preparing to lower rates. And so, while his job appears safe, it doesn't seem clear that this battle between the two men is over quite yet, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Yes, a real recalibration of the rhetoric coming out of the White House.

Kevin Liptak, thank you so much.

Let's bring in CNN business and politics correspondent Vanessa Yurkevich.

Vanessa, we also heard, as Kevin mentioned, from Scott Bessent earlier today. He was talking about China having to change. Tell us more.

[13:05:05]

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

Yes, the treasury secretary earlier today at the International Monetary Fund essentially calling out China for its trade practices, saying that the country needs to change, that the trade practices are unsustainable and that China needs a rebalancing.

But he also went on to say that the U.S. is willing to help with that. Take a listen to him earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT BESSENT, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY: Our Chinese counterparts that will come to this realization and some of our policies, sometimes, it takes an external push.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

BESSENT: Alternatively, what I have said previously, there is an opportunity for a big deal here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

YURKEVICH: And that key word, deal, that is what investors on Wall Street are holding on to.

And that is why you saw markets hold pretty steady throughout most of his speech at the IMF. Also, though, investors I have spoken with said that really the only thing that Wall Street cares about right now is the trade war and what is happening with Jerome Powell and the Fed.

On the trade war front, as we heard from the secretary there and from the president, they are signaling a de-escalation coming with China soon. On the Powell of it all, investors were incredibly worried that the Federal Reserve would not be able to maintain its independence, both in monetary policy and in terms of who the chairman would be for the rest of his term, meaning Jerome Powell.

But the president saying yesterday that he had no intention of firing Jerome Powell, that was a huge sigh of relief for investors. And you saw futures yesterday just skyrocket,and, today, markets, as you can see there, in the green, continuing a rally coming off of yesterday's news, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Vanessa Yurkevich, thank you so much for the update -- Brianna.

KEILAR: And with us now is Stephen Moore, who advised former President Trump during his 2016 election.

Thank you so much, Stephen, for being with us.

Let's talk a little bit about this. How do you see Trump's turnaround on China?

STEPHEN MOORE, FORMER DONALD TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Well, you guys started this conversation, Brianna, talking about this being a Trump retreat.

I don't think I would use that word. I think this was kind of a strategic advance, where Trump is being realistic about what's happened with the markets over the last few weeks. And, also, I'm hearing from my friends over there in the White House who are working on this issue every hour that they are making some advances with China.

And that's good news for everybody, because you're quite right that what the outcome here we all want to see is that China is more cooperative. They have incredibly aggressive and -- policies on trade that are -- I would describe as being unfair to Americans.

And so if those deals continue to be made, I think you will continue to see the stock market rise the way it has in the last couple of days. There's still a lot of ground to be made up, based on the losses we have seen in the last month or so.

KEILAR: Why would you say China is being more cooperative?

MOORE: Because they're talking about lowering some of their tariffs, reducing some of their very aggressive non-tariff trade barriers that make it very difficult for Americans to sell our farm products, our manufacturing products, and so on, and even our technology products to the Chinese.

And so, look, the -- this is based on -- there's no deal yet. I want to be clear on that, but they're softening their position.

KEILAR: Yes, so -- and when you say they're talking about that -- OK.

So, you're saying in formal discussions with the White House? I mean, how are you characterizing this?

MOORE: No, not -- well, not formal discussions, but phone calls. I don't think we'd describe those as being formal, but, basically, Trump's -- Trump and his economics team saying, you're going to have to make concessions in these areas.

And China has apparently really softened their position and their opposition to that. Look, China -- remember, China's stock market has been crushed and their economy is in a lot of trouble too. So it's in the interest of both countries to come to an agreement that creates a more level playing field.

KEILAR: OK, so I hear you take issue with the description of this being a turnaround, but we should just be clear. The president has gone from a 145 percent tariff on China to talking about that being reduced; 145 percent is very high.

MOORE: Yes.

KEILAR: He says it won't be that high. It won't be anywhere near that high. Bessent's talking about the rebalancing of trade.

MOORE: Yes.

KEILAR: OK, so if you want to -- I don't want to have a semantic debate with you about this idea of a the turnaround.

MOORE: Yes. Yes.

KEILAR: But whatever you -- whether you -- it's described as a turnaround...

MOORE: Right.

KEILAR: ... or, as you call it, a strategic advance...

MOORE: Yes.

[13:10:00]

KEILAR: ... is it recognition that they weren't getting anywhere with playing rhetorical hardball the way they were, and having that 145 percent tariff that we heard the treasury secretary say, this is essentially stopping all trade, this is basically essentially a trade embargo?

Is it a recognition of that not working?

MOORE: Well -- yes, well, Brianna, I think you're missing the main point that Trump is an incredibly strategic negotiator.

I mean, he's the best there is, and that his opening bid was 145 percent. Now, I don't think anybody ever really thought we were going to impose 145 percent tariffs, although the Chinese were certainly terrified of that prospect.

And I think what that opening bid did was force the Chinese to start softening their position. And eventually they will come to -- I feel very confident they will come to the negotiating table and the U.S. will come out ahead in those negotiations, because the situation is so unlevel right now.

But, look, you -- there's also tariffs on all these other countries that need to be resolved too. So this isn't just about China. It's about getting deals from the Europeans, from Mexico, Canada, Japan. And what I'm here to tell you is, it looks, it appears that there is progress on all of those fronts

KEILAR: Yes, China's -- China's the big one, obviously. And that was the one that stood beyond the 10 percent...

MOORE: Yes, obviously...

KEILAR: ... which is why a lot of focus on it.

MOORE: That's right.

KEILAR: So, CEOs, Walmart, Target, Home Depot, and Lowe's, came to the White House on Monday.

They warned Trump about supply chain interruptions. They warned him about negative effects on consumers.

MOORE: Yes.

KEILAR: He's been hearing concerns about the negative effects of his talking about Jerome Powell, the Fed chair, the way he has been talking about it

Did that kind of counsel that he received help him soften his tone?

MOORE: Well, let me say that there are problems in the supply chain, no question about it, with the tariff talk.

And I think that's another reason that Trump is basically looking for ways to reduce those tariffs, so that we don't see higher prices when we go to Walgreens or we go to Home Depot and these other stores.

With respect to Jerome Powell, I would say that we were all outraged, that is, those who favor Trump, by the speech that was given by Jerome Powell last week. It was really -- I have been following this for four years. I thought it was the most outrageous, partisan attack against a new president that I have ever seen. And I think it was out of bounds.

And it didn't take into account all the positive things that Trump are doing on the economy. Now, that being said, and people like myself were saying, Jerome Powell has to go, but the markets clearly don't want Jerome Powell out. They don't want him out right now.

And I think Trump, again, made a strategic...

KEILAR: Well, Stephen, I just want to be clear, Jerome Powell was reflecting what a lot of just economists are saying.

MOORE: That's true.

KEILAR: So, if what you're looking for is just straight shooting from Jerome Powell, that really did seem to be what it was.

Separately, I want to ask you about the treasury secretary, Bessent, saying -- he said...

MOORE: Well, hold on. Let me -- hold on. Let me make -- let me push you back. Hold on. Let me make a point about this.

OK, that's a fair point. A lot of the economists and a lot of the businesses were saying, these policies were harmful. But, my God, I mean, Joe Biden came in and spent $5 trillion, sent inflation up to 25 percent increase in prices. Jerome Powell never made that kind of speech against the -- in fact, he accommodated Biden's policies.

So I think that's something that really angered us. I mean, you -- I challenge you to find anything that Jerome Powell ever said criticizing Biden's reckless policies.

KEILAR: I think you heard certainly concerns about inflation, and you saw reflections on decisions that were made about interest rates when it came to inflation. We certainly saw that, right? We certainly saw that.

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: Stephen, I have one -- Stephen, I have -- I want to get this question in, and we're going to have to wrap it up if we can't get past this.

(CROSSTALK)

MOORE: OK. But I want to just make one point clear.

Jerome Powell was the one who allowed the inflation to go up by 9 percent in 2022, which was the highest rate of inflation we have had in 30 years. And so it's hard to defend what he did back then, in my opinion.

KEILAR: OK, well, I will say, there was massive spending. There were concerns raised about inflation. And there was also the navigation of a soft landing to avoid a recession. We have to be clear about that. That doesn't mean that people weren't hurt by economic policy, to be clear.

Just finally, real quick...

MOORE: Yes.

KEILAR: ... the treasury secretary said America first isn't America alone.

But, Stephen, that's going to be news to a lot of countries. Is it too late for that message from the Trump administration?

MOORE: No, not at all.

Look, I mean, we want -- Trump believes in free and fair trade. He wants -- he understands the global trading system. And I believe that this will be resolved some time in the next three months or so. And once it is resolved, I think we will have freer and fairer trade, which will lead to more global integration. And everyone comes out ahead.

[13:15:00]

The only thing I would say, Brianna, for people who may oppose Trump's policies, and I'm not -- look, I'm more of a free trade guy than he is. But all Trump is saying to these other countries is, lower your tariffs in a way that we have a level playing field.

I'm not so sure why people think that that's an unfair position to take. It's putting America first and saying, look, we have lowered our tariffs. China, Japan, U.K., the E.U., you're going to have to lower your tariffs too to create a fairer trading system.

KEILAR: Lesotho, among others.

Stephen Moore, thank you so much. Great to have you. Thank you.

MOORE: Thank you, Brianna. Take care.

KEILAR: Still to come this hour: Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth vowing no more distractions, as his wife is drawing scrutiny now because of her constant presence at the Pentagon and also in a group chat with the defense secretary.

Plus, on the heels of a lawsuit, the Trump administration appears willing to negotiate with Harvard University now over federal funding.

And then, later, mourners waiting for hours to pay their respects to Pope Francis, who now lies in state at the Vatican. We're live from Rome next.

You're watching CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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[13:20:38]

KEILAR: All day long, thousands of mourners have been lined up at St. Peter's Basilica in Vatican City to pay their final respects to Pope Francis.

You're looking at some live pictures here from the Basilica. This morning, the pope's body was transferred from his apartment in a solemn procession to St. Peter's, where he will be lying in state for three days ahead of his funeral on Saturday.

Dozens of cardinals from around the world who will elect the next pope are now arriving in Rome, preparing for what will likely be one of the most closely watched conclaves in church history.

CNN Vatican correspondent Christopher Lamb is near St. Peter's Square there in Rome for us.

And, Chris, describe what you have been witnessing.

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, there are thousands of people who are queuing up behind me to pay their respects to Pope Francis. The queue is several hours long already. The Vatican say they may

extend the opening times to see the pope to beyond midnight. Now, I myself had the chance to see Pope Francis last night in the chapel of the Casa Santa Marta. It was a really quite overwhelming experience to go to that chapel.

It was a very somber and quiet atmosphere, but very powerful and very moving. And I have been out in the crowd speaking to people who say they're here to see Francis because they say he's our pope. He's someone who they could connect with. He's someone who they felt close to. And they're willing to spend hours and hours to get that final glimpse of Pope Francis, who is lying in St. Peter's Basilica in an open casket for people to go and pray and pay their respects to.

This pope has chosen to have a more simple funeral and burial rite. He hasn't been laid out on the crimson cushions of his predecessors, but in a simple wooden casket. That's his where. He will also not be buried in St. Peter's Basilica, as previous popes, but in the basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore in a simple tomb that says only Franciscus.

So Pope Francis, a pope of simplicity and humility who connected with so many people, not just Catholics, but those of other faiths and Christians of other denominations of other persuasions. And we can see that outpouring now with all the crowds who are gathering and spending hours in line to see the pope for one final...

KEILAR: All right, Christopher Lamb, thank you for that, as we watch these pictures of people who have spent so much time waiting for this moment. Thank you -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: Let's discuss with father John Maria Devaney. He's the host of SiriusXM's The Catholic Channel.

Father, thanks so much for being with us.

First, I just want to get your reaction to some of the images that we're seeing coming out of St. Peter's Basilica and also the idea that the pope wanted a simple funeral.

REV. JOHN MARIA DEVANEY, DOMINICAN FRIARS: I think, Boris -- thank you for having me.

What's important to remember is in our Catholic tradition is the sacredness and the sanctity of the body, so laying someone to rest, right? We hold in tradition Christ was laid to rest.

So, for mourners to actually see the body, to pay their respects and to have it in the simplicity of Francis' life and how he desired to be laid to rest, but also in the grandeur and the beauty of St. Peter's Basilica is quite something, and for those who want to be part of history, but also, like a family member, they want to go to a wake.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

And as we look forward to what is to come over the next few weeks, the College of Cardinals has already been gathering. Obviously, we're not anticipating an announcement of a new pope until at least May, roughly. What do they do in the meantime?

DEVANEY: So, if you think about this, they have to gather in Rome, right, per the duty of the period right now called the interregnum.

And there's fraternity involved. They see each other. These are men who may know each other a little bit, may not know each other. They're from all corners of the globe. I think that was a hallmark of the cardinals that Francis chose during his pontificate.

[13:25:06]

You have got to think about how he wanted representation from even the smallest corners of the world where the Catholic Church is. So these cardinals are often meeting for the first time, but some of them may have studied together. And there's also, believe it or not, a lot of priestly fraternity.

At the end of the day, they're all priests, even though they're cardinals and they have this special role in leadership of the church. But I know, even myself, when you get a lot of priests together, we have good fraternity and times of just getting to talk to one another as peers.

SANCHEZ: And, Father, conclaves famously are very secretive. The cardinals are not supposed to discuss what's happening inside.

I believe that they're also limited on what they can follow in terms of media reports. What is it like behind closed doors? Why so many restrictions?

DEVANEY: No, I think you're right, Boris. I don't think any cardinals will be tweeting from or D.M.ing from the Sistine Chapel.

I think here's the thing. If you look at what the Catholic Church is and what we claim to be, right, the establishment of Jesus Christ and his church in the world, that there's this supernatural element, that, if you think about it, Jesus chose the first pope, St. Peter. This is what we believe. This is what we hold.

And if something is so sacred that has a supernatural element to it, it's not politics. It's not electing someone who will have just a representation of your local district, right? This is someone who's going to spiritually lead almost two billion Catholics, and if you include all Christians as well, and be seen as a global figure of a voice that connects heaven and earth, then there's something very sacred to this and something that's not going to have the elements of what we're used to in secular elections.

SANCHEZ: That's a really good point.

Father John, thanks so much for being with us.

DEVANEY: Great to be with you, Boris. Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

When we come back, why Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is under scrutiny over his wife's constant presence at the Pentagon.

Stay with us.

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