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Trump Threatens to Reimpose Reciprocal Tariffs Within Weeks; Trump Gives Mixed Messages on Tariffs and China; Russia Strikes Kyiv as Trump Accuses Zelenskyy of Harming Peace Talks; Interview with Gov. Maura Healey (D-MA): Harvard Asks Judge to Expedite Lawsuit Challenging Funding Freeze. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired April 24, 2025 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... Felt like a rug pull.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Skincare products for children, especially black and brown children.

RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Patrice Chappelle and her son started MelanBrand Skin in 2023 with the goal of getting her product onto the shelves of Target.

PATRICE CHAPPELLE, FOUNDER MELANBRAND SKIN: With all the rollbacks on the DEI, that's going to, you know, make it a lot harder for us to get into the store. It's no longer inclusive and it feels that -- it feels like they have really just turned their backs on us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We asked that because black people spend upwards of $12 million a day, that they would invest a quarter of a billion dollars in the black banks, so people would have access to capital for businesses and for home ownership. We asked Target to invest in HBCUs and to give a re-examination of what DEI would look like in the future.

YOUNG (voice-over): Ryan Young, CNN, Stonecrest, Georgia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Is there infighting at the White House over tariffs as the Trump administration signals retreat? We will speak to the journalist who reports this morning that chaos is consuming everything.

And breaking overnight, Russia launches its deadliest attack on Ukraine's capital this year, civilian targets, as President Trump lashes out at the Ukrainian president.

And new reporting on Harvard's plans as it tries to defend itself from the Trump administration.

I'm John Berman with Kate Bolduan and Sara Sidner. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: The correction or misdirection, maybe, on what was a course correction. Are you confused? You should be.

Because President Trump's approach to his tariff policy this week is just that, confused. He is now sending even more mixed messages about his trade war. After pausing the so-called reciprocal tariffs on dozens of countries earlier this month, that pause, remember, was declared it would last for 90 days to allow for negotiations.

Well, now President Trump says that he could cut that short and slap the tariffs back on much sooner.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think what's going to happen is we're going to have great deals. And by the way, if we don't have a deal with a company or a country, we're going to set the tariff. We just set the tariff.

It's something that we think that will happen, I'd say, over the next couple of weeks, wouldn't you say? I think so. Over the next two, three weeks, we'll be setting the number.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: There's also new uncertainty with regard to trade between the U.S. and China. You remember how President Trump softened his tone this week on China. Markets reacted very well to that, even saying Wednesday that the two sides are talking every day.

Well, China says they aren't talking tariffs at all. One official even suggesting that was fake news. Let's give a live look right now at market futures.

We're going to throw those up. All pointing down at the moment that is ahead of opening bell next hour. The major indices are down -- back down now after back-to-back days of gains. So buckle up once again.

Another twist today. A dozen states are opening a new front in the trade war and suing to stop the tariffs.

Arizona's attorney general leading the effort, calling Trump's tariffs, quote, insane. CNN senior political analyst Mark Preston starting us off this hour. I mean, talk about a whole new level of whiplash.

I mean, the president announces that he's going to play nice, essentially, with China. China doesn't say anything at all. And now all the reporting I'm looking at, Mark, is that China just thinks -- is betting that Trump backs down and they can wait him out.

I mean, do you want to venture to guess how the president's going to react today?

MARK PRESTON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Kate, first of all, I don't think it's very nice of you to think that my name is Nostradamus and I can predict Donald Trump. Now, if I could, could you imagine how I would do at the casino? Listen, the bottom line is, is that Donald Trump right now is going to wake up.

And if history is to give us any indication of how he will act, he will go right at it very hard. Donald Trump right now, you know, has because of his policies now, the S&P 500 has shed $7 trillion. That's right, trillion dollars since February.

Donald Trump this morning, after two days of the markets being a little bit calmed down by the Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent saying that these tariffs would not stay forever. And Donald Trump seeming to back that up until he didn't. So at this point right now, Kate, we wait to see what he says.

But the markets are also closely watching what he has to say.

BOLDUAN: Well, yes. And one of the other things that roiled the markets was what he was saying when he suggested that he wanted to fire and fire quickly the Federal Reserve chairman. And he's talking about Jerome Powell yet again.

PRESTON: Yes, he is.

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You know and let us let's say for all our viewers out there who may not remember, Jerome Powell was put on the Fed by Donald Trump. Donald Trump put him into this position, but he is so upset at Powell because Donald Trump is not able to dictate to Powell that rates should be dropped.

And after saying that he wasn't going to try to fire him. This is what he said yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I haven't called him, but I believe he's making a mistake by not lowering interest rates. And I think as well as we're doing, we'll do much better.

He's keeping rates too high. He historically has been late except when it came to Biden. He was recommended by a certain person that I'm not particularly happy with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESTON: Well, there we go. Apparently, Donald Trump is not particularly happy with the person that told him to put Jerome Powell on the Fed. Bottom line is right now, though, Powell is in his position. Donald Trump is not happy with him.

The markets are waiting for the Trump administration to try to bring some normalcy back to the markets, as opposed to what we're seeing right now, which is what you said right at the very top. We are in a mode of whiplash -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Yes. Good to see you, Mark. Thank you very much -- John.

BERMAN: All right. With us now is senior politics reporter at Axios, Marc Caputo.

I was just reading your brand new reporting this morning. And you know, Mark, that at the beginning of this new Trump administration, things maybe seemed a little more buttoned up than last time. But now, you know, 95 days in the penchant for chaos, you write, is consuming everything.

What do you mean?

MARC CAPUTO, SENIOR POLITICS REPORTER, AXIOS: Well, it's spreading. Just the other day, you had Elon Musk and Scott Bessent, the Treasury secretary, get in a literal shouting match, chest to chest, face to face, outside of the Oval Office, within earshot of Giorgia Meloni, the prime minister of Italy, because the two of them have a personality clash and difference. And also, they were proximately arguing over the new IRS commissioner.

And that's just sort of one example of the pressure cooker that exists in the White House currently. Obviously, as the report just mentioned there, tariffs are a policy that the administration is moving toward. However, it's really unclear exactly what Donald Trump wants.

And that lack of certainty is sort of spread throughout the administration.

BERMAN: There was a lack of certainty. We can all see that just from the outside looking in. The world can see that.

Is there a sense from your reporting, Mark, that inside the White House, they have regrets over some of the moves or they're trying to clean up some of the things that have happened since what they called Liberation Day?

CAPUTO: I would think that people think that, but they don't admit that. Remember, the Trump White House, this one differs from the prior one in that there's a much greater unity of mission and an acknowledgement and a factoring in of the fact that Donald Trump is the leader of this White House, leader of the nation, and that Trump is just going to do what he wants to do and that they sort of are always sort of reacting to them.

I've sometimes compared Donald Trump to a raging river. And this administration is sort of the hydroelectric dam, which exists knowing that it can't really control the river outright. It can't stop it from flowing. And what it wants to do is channel that energy into some sort of productive use. But once in a while, that river sort of busts its banks and goes over the top of the dam and you wind up in sort of a more destructive situation. You're sort of seeing that right now with the stock market.

But even there, when you talk to the administration about and the different players in the administration about. Well, what's the plan on tariffs?

You get different answers. But by and large, they say, we are here, we're committed to the president's vision, and we're going to execute it. What that looks like, it's a little messier.

BERMAN: I want to ask you just specific nuggets in your reporting. Scott Bessent, the Treasury Secretary, maybe some concerns that he's getting reviews that are too positive. What are you hearing there?

CAPUTO: Right. The interesting thing about Trump world is there's an aspect of it where everything is sort of opposite day when it comes to press coverage. If you are a besieged official and you are being attacked and you're being criticized, like Pete Hegseth, the Department of Defense secretary, well, Donald Trump has a tendency to really stick by you, rally around you and not give liberals, the media, quote unquote, a win.

However, if on the other hand, you're perceived as getting too positive press, that can be problematic because others start to look at you as being a leaker or trying to eclipse what they call the boss. And that can be troublesome.

There have been some reports out there that have said, for instance, that Bessent, and they're true, has counseled the president not to be critical of Jerome Powell, the Fed secretary.

Again, the problem with that is, is Donald Trump doesn't like to be viewed as someone who needs to be managed, someone who's being managed up.

[08:10:00]

And so those perversely can produce an opposite effect where you would think, hey, positive press is good, not always in the Trump world.

BERMAN: And all these whispers that Scott Bessent, the treasury secretary, is the adult in the room, might not be helping the treasury secretary. Marc Caputo, as always, love reading your reporting. Thanks so much for coming on -- Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Really insightful.

All right, breaking overnight, Russia launching its deadliest strikes on Kyiv in nearly a year. The wave of attacks killing at least eight people and wounding dozens of others. Ukrainian officials say Moscow sent 70 missiles and 145 drones toward Ukraine, mainly targeting the capital city. And you hear one of those strikes there right now.

Rescuers racing to find people believed to be trapped beneath all that rubble. The attacks come hours after President Trump lashed out at Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy for his comments that Ukraine wouldn't recognize Russian control of Crimea. So far, no big condemnation of Russia's deadly action from the White House.

Let's get right to Nick Payton Walsh. Nick, the attack is coming at this sort of crucial time as negotiations are sort of wavering a bit here over ending the war. What are you learning?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, interesting the timing, obviously. Perhaps a reminder by Moscow on Ukrainians who want a deal. There are many indeed who want the war to end of Russia's continued capabilities.

An extraordinary number of missiles indeed fired, perhaps seeking to find weaknesses in Ukraine's beleaguered air defense. Remember, they don't always have the Patriot missile interceptors that they do indeed need. But you're right, Sara, this comes at a vital time in diplomacy.

Very much a self-imposed deadline from the White House here of trying to get results in the coming week or so. A European official I spoke to saying that they seem to certainly want a deal in the first 100 days of the Trump administration. And that is, of course, behind the pressure on President Zelenskyy that Donald Trump put yesterday in his Truth Social post, telling Zelenskyy to, quote, get it done.

The issue here is it's not clear exactly what the it is. And indeed, even in that same Truth Social post, Trump stepped back from saying he wanted Zelenskyy to recognize occupied Crimea as part of Russia. That's something Zelenskyy can't politically do domestically and indeed is forbidden by the Ukrainian constitution from doing.

But it's something that perhaps the United States might do, recognize Crimea as part of Russia as a sweetener to Moscow to get it closer to a deal. But the remains of that deal are not public. And what's particularly not public is what Trump expects Vladimir Putin, his Russian counterpart, to also cede.

We heard from Zelenskyy today in South Africa, a visit he's cut short to meet the head of the G20 there, the rotating presidency, that he doesn't see pressure being put on Moscow for violating the ceasefires that have been in place over the past weeks. And indeed, too, he said that this diplomacy continues, that the meeting we saw in London downgraded from secretary of state level to officials, yielded another document agreed to by U.S. officials there that's currently on the desk of President Donald Trump. There's clearly last-minute bids here to find some way through this because of the pressure applied on Kyiv.

The question really here is what pressure, if any, is being applied on Russia while it launches very, very damaging and brutal strikes like this -- Sara.

SIDNER: And that is what is so troubling to many in the world watching what is happening here. Nick Payton Walsh, thank you so much for your report this morning -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us still, a new twist this morning in the funding feud between President Donald Trump and Harvard University. Why the school is now trying to fast-track its legal challenge?

And federal funding cuts to the nation's top health agencies have thrown Alzheimer's research into limbo. Researchers and caregivers are now sounding the alarm.

Plus, an Alabama trooper going beyond the call of duty, how his act of kindness changed a woman's life.

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BOLDUAN: This morning, Harvard University is asking a federal court for a quick decision on its lawsuit challenging the Trump administration's funding freeze. Harvard says critical research and academic projects are being threatened right now as more than $2.2 billion in funding remains on hold. The White House, though, has said it's freezing the funds until Harvard either agrees to its demands ostensibly over fighting anti-Semitism or at least starts negotiating.

The Trump administration is reportedly ready to negotiate because administration officials reached out to Harvard representatives three times last week in an effort to restart talks. That's according to a source telling CNN. But the nation's oldest university indicated it was not interested in negotiating, the source said.

And now Harvard's president is speaking out saying why.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALAN GARBER, HARVARD UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT: We are defending what I believe is one of the most important linchpins of the American economy and way of life, our universities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this a fight you can win?

GARBER: I don't know the answer to this question, but the stakes are so high that we have no choice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And joining us right now is the Democratic governor of Massachusetts and Harvard alum, Governor Maura Healey. Governor, thank you very much for coming in. Harvard's president also said he is not sure how much pain Harvard actually can absorb.

[08:20:00]

If winning this fight means that Harvard suffers financially and medical engineering and scientific research that's currently frozen then gets canceled or ruined, do you think negotiating should be considered?

GOV. MAURA HEALEY, (D) MASSACHUSETTS: Look, Donald Trump is somebody who promised, I think, 75 deals in 90 days. He's delivered zero deals. They don't negotiate in good faith. They move the goalposts. So, you know, Harvard will make a decision there.

But I think in my view, it's very important that Harvard and other entities continue to stand their ground in the face of efforts to bully and silence critics.

They've gone after companies, law firms, universities, everyday Americans. And, you know, they need to stop or Congress needs to step in and make them stop. Let me tell you why this fight is really important, Kate. Massachusetts, we're number one in the country for education, for health care, for innovation. I know what these research dollars mean, not only to our ability to save lives and find cures and treatments to cancer and Alzheimer's and ALS, also our ability to pioneer new technologies for defense, for the military and the like. They're also huge drivers of the American economy.

If you look at NIH funding, which Harvard and others have received, every dollar in NIH funding in this company generates another two to three dollars in GDP growth. So these are really, really important matters. And it's been really terrible to see what Donald Trump has done, because not only have the cuts to universities and to labs and to research and to NIH resulted in the firing, the laying off of scientists and professors, they've also had the effect of driving talent away from America's shores.

And, you know, as somebody who wants America to thrive, I believe that America is the greatest country on earth. Donald Trump is making us less competitive because right now, Kate, I'll tell you what's happening on our campuses. China is on our campuses recruiting our scientists, recruiting the postdocs, recruiting all the folks who are in labs and running clinical trials right now and saying, come to China, we'll give you a lab, we'll give you 90 staff people, we'll fund you if the American government won't.

That makes America less safe, less competitive. And it also has tremendous ripple effects for our economy. No construction jobs for these labs, for these offices.

We've seen the supply chain totally disrupted and so much more attendant to this. It's really bad. It's wrong. And it's compounded by the tariffs.

BOLDUAN: Well, and let me ask you about that, because obviously the trade war impacts every state, every governor is dealing with it. And because of that, a dozen states, they just filed lawsuit to sue the administration to stop this in the U.S. Court of International Trade in New York. They did this Wednesday to stop the tariff policy.

Massachusetts is not part of that one that I've seen. Separately, California's governor last week sued the administration in federal court in California over the trade policy as well. Is the Commonwealth preparing to sue as well as -- I mean, you're clearly upset about it?

MAURA: Oh, yes. And I'll be speaking with our attorney general about that. I support these suits because what's happening in Massachusetts and around the country is that we see a total disruption in our economy.

I was meeting with a small business owner the other day and she's used to receiving order after order. She manufactures certain parts that are important for manufacturing here in the state. And she's got no orders in because the problem with these tariffs, right, just like he's going to fire Jerome Powell, he's not going to fire Jerome Powell. The tariffs have been all over the place. We see people in the markets and companies uncertain. And amidst that uncertainty and instability, people aren't going to make investments.

If they're not going to make investments, orders aren't going to come through. When orders don't come through, then companies have to make decisions about laying off employees. And when you lay off employees, that has a terrible impact on our economy.

BOLDUAN: And that's why I was asking what essentially you're going to do about it. I mean, so we should expect to see legal action coming from the attorney general.

MAURA: Well, I'll take whatever action I think is appropriate. Kate, I've been out speaking about this from day one as a governor who cut taxes, as a governor who's working every day to lower costs, including by building more housing. I've said, Mr. President, this makes no sense. Our lumber for housing comes from Canada. Gypsum and other materials come from Mexico. You have just made housing more expensive for us to build in this country.

That's in the wrong direction. That's about making things more expensive for people in our country.

[08:25:00]

And it's not delivering on what I thought was the fundamental promise of the Trump campaign, which was we're going to lower costs and make life cheaper for everybody.

So that's where we are. I'm going to continue to advocate and explain to people how this is playing out real time in terms of harm in our state and across the greater economy.

BOLDUAN: What I'm hearing you say is a call for leadership on this and you mentioned the Trump campaign. I mean one thing we know since President Trump's won, since the moves that he's made and since the Democrats suffered the blow of that big loss in November, is that Democrats are soul-searching and looking for leadership right now. A lot of people saying that governors are the direction that people need to be looking not to Democrats in Washington.

One, I'm wondering if you're ready to take up that mantle. If you want to be known as -- if you'd like to be known as the face of the Democratic Party from here on out? And two, what do you do differently? Because clearly something's gone wrong with the Democratic Party.

MAURA: Well, no doubt and I think we saw that that the problem play out through the election. You know, I'll tell you what I stand for, what I stand for as a governor and what I stand for as a Democratic governor.

One is supporting economic growth, supporting job creation. I also support lowering costs. That's why as governor I've been focused on cutting taxes, building more housing, lowering energy costs, right? Making our state and our country more competitive. It's why I've made substantial investments in things like education and workforce and new technologies like AI.

So, you know, that's what I stand for. That's what I represent. I also believe deeply in the rule of law. What does that mean to people? It means that we have a political order in a system of government that it makes sure that people's rights are protected. And that's really important right now when we've got a president who's ignoring court orders, right? Disappearing people from our streets and doing things that are really un-American. And so, you know, I'm going to continue to speak up. I'm also going to explain to people in my state and elsewhere who will listen the consequences of Donald Trump's actions, right?

There's a reason that your father right now cannot get treatment at a VA. It's because Donald Trump has cut funding and as a result nurses and doctors have had to be laid off.

There's a reason your 401k is dwindling. It's because Donald Trump and his team are doing things that are incredibly harmful to economic growth.

I think we need to continue to speak out and to speak up including taking legal action to stop the continued assault and the engagement on all sorts of fronts that are illegal and unconstitutional. So we've got to be in the court of public opinion, Kate.

We've also got to be in the legal courts as well.

BOLDUAN: Keeping an eye out to see what that means coming out of the Commonwealth. It sounds like probably pretty soon. Governor, thank you for your time -- Sara.

SIDNER: All right. Thank you, Kate.

Right now, the NATO Secretary General is at the Pentagon to meet with U.S. leaders as Ukraine peace talks falter.

Plus, we're watching for the opening bell, of course, on Wall Street this morning as we wait to see how markets are reacting to new talks of tariffs.

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