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Hegseth's New Favorite Adviser Helped Set Up Signal on One of Secretary's Computers in the Pentagon; Pause in NIH Funding Leaves Alzheimer's Studies in Limbo; 19-Year-Old Faces Arson Charges for New Jersey Wildfire. Aired 2:30-3 pm ET

Aired April 24, 2025 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BILL TAYLOR, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: So it does take two to have a conversation. And if one side is saying they're talking, the other side is saying not, then there's a mismatch, there's a disconnect. You're of course right, Boris.

[14:30:12]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Yeah, we should note, it seemed even that the Norwegian Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Store, was having a different conversation at times than President Trump when they were talking Ukraine, because he said something that we did not hear Trump say. He said Ukraine is under attack. They are defending themselves. Ukraine, of course, an ally of America, but we did not hear that from President Trump.

Ambassador Aaron, thank you so much to both of you. We really appreciate the conversation. And we'll be right back.

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[14:35:18]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: We're learning new details about the extent of Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's use of the app Signal. Multiple sources tell CNN the secretary was already using the messaging app on a desktop computer inside his Pentagon office. That computer was installed weeks before bombshell reporting revealed the secretary had used Signal twice to text sensitive military information in group chats. To be clear, the secretary's office is considered a secure space where cell phones are not typically permitted.

Now, in addition to that reporting, sources also tell CNN that after those chats were exposed, a close advisor requested that the Pentagon chief's information officer make an exception, allowing Hegseth to keep using Signal freely at work. That request apparently raised eyebrows among senior officials.

Let's discuss with former Trump administration official Kevin Carroll. He worked as a Senior Counselor for former Secretary of Homeland Security John Kelly. He's also a former CIA Case Officer.

Kevin, thank you so much for being with us. What do you make of this request from Hegseth to have this additional computer installed?

KEVIN CARROLL, FORMER SENIOR COUNSELOR FOR THEN DHS SECRETARY JOHN KELLY: Two things. One, it's ex post facto. It doesn't cover for the fact that he was previously using it without authorization. And then asking for the authorization was crazy. I mean, why would you put an insecure commercial app that can be hacked by a foreign signals intelligence service on any communications device related to the secretary of defense, especially when he has the most robust communication staff of anybody in the government beyond the president?

SANCHEZ: You have written about some of the reasons why some of these cabinet officials might be using Signal, and your argument essentially boils down to the idea that they are trying to keep some of these conversations away from the public.

K. CARROLL: Absolutely. They're trying to evade the Presidential Record Keepings Act and the Freedom of Information Act, which applies to any senior political appointee. And one of the things that shows that I think they're up to no good here is they're not including any uniformed military in these chats so far as we know.

And I think the reason is that the uniformed military officers would have appropriately said, guys, we can't talk about top secret information on your commercial, unsecure app. So there's really no good reason that they're having these Signal chats among themselves.

SANCHEZ: You also argue that the Department of Justice is giving them a free pass at doing this. I wonder what you think Attorney General Pam Bondi should do and if she should file charges.

K. CARROLL: Absolutely. She should ask the FBI director to investigate the secretary of defense for a possible violation of the Espionage Act, specifically 18 U.S. Code section 793. It's the sort of thing that I've defended service members that have been accused of violating it, and certainly if this was anybody but the secretary of defense, there would be such an investigation.

The secretary was speaking at the Army War College yesterday. I graduated from the War College. I guarantee you every colonel in that audience when listening to the secretary was thinking to himself, I would be in the stockade if I did what the secretary did.

SANCHEZ: So I have to ask you about some of what we've heard in defense of the use of Signal app from cabinet officials, specifically the CIA director John Ratcliffe and the director of national intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard. They essentially argued, I believe Ratcliffe specifically, that when he logged on to his government computer, Signal was already installed. Is that a reason to use the app? And does this mean that this is a problem that spans now multiple administrations?

K. CARROLL: It may be a problem that spans multiple administrations. What Director Ratcliffe should have done is say time out. How the heck is an insecure commercial application on my computer as the Director of Central Intelligence? And I would also point out that Director Ratcliffe, Director Gabbard, perjured themselves before Congress when they said that there was not classified information in the chat that they were engaged in. I mean, what Secretary Hegseth was talking about was the timing and location of an inbound airstrike. If that's not classified, what the heck is?

SANCHEZ: The Pentagon's argument is that nothing that he's shared is classified. So it's fascinating to hear that perspective. I do wonder about something that you mentioned in an op-ed that you wrote, that these missteps have essentially allowed some of America's adversaries to potentially access other sensitive information, other conversations that they might have on their personal devices, opening them up for blackmail.

K. CARROLL: Absolutely. You can only imagine the reaction in press and Congress if yet another Signal chat that Secretary Hegseth came out with is revealed. So they can hold that over his head. It's the situation in which you have to resign if you're a senior national security official and you have that kind of vulnerability.

And, again, when they say this wasn't classified, I served in Yemen with the United States Army. If anybody had said exactly where I was going to be and when I was going to be there in such a way that the Iranians or the Houthis or Hezbollah or the Quds Force could have found out, I certainly wouldn't have liked it. I certainly would have considered that classified information that could have gotten me killed.

[14:40:01]

SANCHEZ: So the exposure, the risk is the death of U.S. service members.

K. CARROLL: Absolutely. We're very lucky that we didn't lose airmen in that airstrike. I mean, the Houthis have been able to shoot down some of our most sophisticated drones. They have a somewhat sophisticated air defense system, courtesy of the Iranians at this point. So we're lucky that they're not mourning families right now.

SANCHEZ: I wonder what you make of the approach from the administration and specifically from the secretary himself to essentially go on TV and argue that these folks that he's fired from the Pentagon and that these stories that continue to encircle him are, at their core, an effort by people that have been entrenched in the Pentagon for a long time to avoid changing the culture there. Is that close to the truth?

K. CARROLL: No, I was embarrassed for him. I mean, Secretary Hegseth and I were both Army officers. The first thing that you learn is that you're responsible for everything your unit does or fails to do. You make a mistake, you accept accountability, you take responsibility. Trying to blame somebody else is not the kind of thing that we would tolerate in a corporal leading a rifle squad, much less the secretary of defense.

SANCHEZ: Kevin Carroll, very much appreciate you joining us today. Thanks so much.

K. CARROLL: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Plenty more news to come on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, including a warning from researchers who say that a pause in federal funding has left critical Alzheimer's studies in limbo.

Stay with us.

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[14:45:59]

KEILAR: Important research on Alzheimer's now hangs in the balance as the National Institutes of Health pauses funding for a number of studies. Lawmakers tell CNN that the Trump administration's freeze on $65 million for research has impacted several Alzheimer's research centers. CNN Health Reporter Jacqueline Howard has more.

JACQUELINE HOWARD, CNN HEALTH REPORTER: There are many researchers in the Alzheimer's space who are on edge right now. There's a lot of uncertainty out there. Some have not yet heard whether their funding will be renewed. Their biggest fear is possibly having to end clinical trials early due to a lack in funding.

Now, what we do know is that in March, NIH halted funding for 14 of the 35 Alzheimer's disease research centers here in the United States. That's about $65 million in funding. We're being told that it's at those centers where some research is currently left in limbo.

One scientist at Stanford told me that his team had to hold off on starting any new Alzheimer's studies because they are still waiting to see whether their funding will be renewed. They were expecting a decision around February. Their funding completely ran out about three weeks ago.

Another researcher based in Florida told me that his team has developed an app that can assess your risk for Alzheimer's, but it may never be released to the public because he's also waiting to see whether funding will be renewed.

And separately, just this week, the National Institutes of Health put out a policy notice saying that it will pull medical research funding from universities with diversity and inclusion programs and any boycotts of Israeli companies because those two things would be a violation of federal anti-discriminatory laws. That appears to be a blanket guideline.

This also has Alzheimer's researchers on edge because if their institutions are penalized under this policy, they could see their funding cut off. Keep in mind, NIH is the largest public funder of biomedical research in the world, so any move that NIH makes will have sweeping consequences.

KEILAR: Jacqueline Howard, thank you for that. And next, New Jersey officials accuse a teenager of starting a

wildfire that has burned 15,000 acres and prompted thousands of people to evacuate. We'll have that next.

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[14:53:00]

SANCHEZ: New today, a 19-year-old is facing arson charges in connection with a wildfire that scorched at least 15,000 acres in southern New Jersey and forced thousands of people to evacuate. The state's forest fire service says a damage assessment is underway right now with a fire about 50% contained. CNN's Jason Carroll joins us now with the details.

So, Jason, what can you tell us about this suspect?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, let's start with his name, Boris. According to fire officials, his name is Joseph Kling. He's 19 years old. So far, he's been charged with arson and aggravated arson. There's a mugshot that you see for him right there. And in terms of how this whole thing got started, according to fire officials, they say Kling was out in a wooded area.

He had set some wooded pallets on fire and then apparently left the area without extinguishing the fire that he had set there, which, of course, started everything that we saw there starting on Tuesday. You see some of the images from this wildfire that crossed its way across the state of New Jersey, burning some 15,000 acres. It triggered thousands of evacuations.

At one point, portions of the Garden State Freeway, our parkway, actually had to be temporarily shut down so firefighters could get in there and do what they needed to do. The thing that is fortunate about this, so far we are told that no homes have been destroyed. Certainly, several structures have been threatened.

New Jersey's acting governor said the following. She said, "We've truly averted a major disaster." So, once again, that 19-year-old suspect is in custody. His name is Joseph Kling. He is a New Jersey resident charged not only with arson, but aggravated arson.

Boris?

SANCHEZ: And Jason, do you have an update for us on where the effort to put the fire out stands? How are firefighters handling the blaze right now?

J. CARROLL: Well, sure. I mean, look, you look at some of the conditions that they've been dealing with out there. Low humidity, for one. Drought in the area. You're talking about an area that covers about one million acres. Of course, this is New Jersey's Pine Barrens area. It's very rural. It certainly is a wide area that firefighters have to deal with.

[14:55:16] But they're certainly getting a hand on it at this point. We're told it's very rural. It certainly is a wide area that firefighters have to deal with. But they're certainly getting a hand on it at this point. We're told it's 50% contained. They are expecting full containment as things are progressing right now, full containment by the weekend.

Boris?

SANCHEZ: Yeah, that full containment can't come soon enough. Jason Carroll, thank you so much for the update.

Next, back to that head-scratching moment in the Oval Office as President Trump says that Russia is making concessions in peace talks with Ukraine by ending the war instead of taking the entire country. We'll discuss in just moments.

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