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FBI Director: Wisconsin Judge Arrested For Allegedly Obstructing ICE; Bondi Says Judge Put Law Enforcement At Risk, Calls Her "Deranged"; Trump Says U.S. "Pretty Close" On Russia-Ukraine Peace Deal; U.S. Consumer Sentiment Plummets Eight Percent From Last Month; GA Secretary Of State Asks DHS Not To Deport Afghan Christian Refugees Yet. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired April 25, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:00:19]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: A judge arrested, accused of helping an undocumented immigrant evade arrest. She's now facing another judge in court. Democratic lawmakers calling this shocking and gravely serious. We'll discuss.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: A demand in President Trump's trade war. The President now saying he wants something substantial from China before dropping tariffs, but he's remaining vague when asked about the status of talks between Washington and Beijing.

And hurricane season just around the corner, as the Trump administration is discussing changes to FEMA that would make it much more difficult for states to qualify for federal disaster assistance.

We're following these major developing stories and many more, all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SANCHEZ: We start this hour with a Wisconsin judge making her first appearance in federal court after being arrested and charged for allegedly obstructing ICE agents. The FBI is accusing Milwaukee County Circuit Judge Hannah Dugan of helping an undocumented immigrant avoid arrest. Judge Dugan was taken into custody this morning, appearing in federal court just a short time ago before being released. Attorney General Pam Bondi defended the arrest and blasted the judge. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: She put the lives of our law enforcement officers at risk. She put the lives of citizens at risk - a street chase - which is absurd that that had to happen. But yes, she put a lot of people at danger.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you dug into their motive? Like, what inspired them to carry out these acts and harbor criminals?

BONDI: They're deranged, is all I can think of. I cannot believe - I think some of these judges think they are beyond and above the law, and they are not. And we're sending a very strong message today. If you are harboring a fugitive, we don't care who you are. If you are helping hide one, if you are giving a TDA member guns, anyone who is illegally in this country, we will come after you, and we will prosecute you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: CNN Crime and Justice Correspondent Katelyn Polantz has been tracking the latest on this.

So, Katelyn, walk us through exactly what happened.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is about what happened in the courtroom and the courthouse where Judge Hannah Dugan sits in Milwaukee. So she's a local judge now facing federal criminal charges. So that's a different court where she will face these charges for allegedly helping this person, who is an undocumented immigrant from Mexico.

He had been in her court on a domestic violence case. He was a defendant there. And when this judge realized at that hearing for this man on April 18th that there were ICE officials waiting at the courthouse to apprehend him and initiate the immigration proceedings to send him back to Mexico, she allegedly got very angry with this idea and wanted the ICE officials to talk to the chief judge of her courthouse, and then ultimately sent this man and his attorney out through the jury door of her courtroom into the back halls of the courthouse, where then this man, Eduardo Flores-Ruiz - he then took off by foot, and the immigration authorities apprehended him running across the courthouse where she works, outside, to get him in their control. He is detained now on this federal charge. And now Judge Dugan - she also is facing federal charges for allegedly helping them - two of those federal charges.

Now, this is a bigger signal that the Trump administration is trying to make here. Attorney General Pam Bondi just said that it is trying to show that it doesn't matter who you are. But then the other side of this is it's a question of public safety. And will people want to participate in the system, whether they're undocumented or not?

Here's a little more from the mayor of Milwaukee, speaking this afternoon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR CAVALIER JOHNSON, (D) MILWAUKEE: If a judge is being arrested in a courthouse, just imagine the chilling effect that it sends to other folks who would otherwise participate in judicial proceedings in our courthouse - and not just in the Milwaukee County Courthouse, but courthouses across the state of Wisconsin and courthouses across the United States. This makes our community less safe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POLANTZ: The FBI Director, Kash Patel, also drawing attention to this case, being quite proud of the FBI's work on it in apprehending the judge here.

[15:05:02]

But there will be more proceedings, where she will enter what her pleading is, and very much likely to progress forward as the case moves on in federal court against her. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Katelyn Polantz, thank you so much for taking us through the details. Let's talk about these developments with retired Judge Diane Kiesel. She's a former New York State Supreme Court justice.

Judge, great to see you, as always.

What is your reaction to this arrest? How could this judge argue that she is in the right on this when the city of Milwaukee has an agreement in place with immigration officials that allows them essentially to make available folks that may be undocumented - unless they are witnesses or plaintiffs in a case? This was apparently a defendant.

DIANE KIESEL, FORMER NEW YORK SUPREME COURT JUDGE: Yes, good afternoon. Look, I don't know the facts of this case, obviously, other than I've reviewed the complaint on a cursory level, but she's got a problem. But the Trump administration also seems to have been - has escalated this problem, if you will.

Defendants often have additional cases other than the ones before a judge. In my experience on the court, the persons who appeared before me were also facing other charges, and they could be arrested in the courthouse. But the way it worked was - the way it seems to have worked in Milwaukee, which is the arresting officers wait outside the courtroom, and the defendant goes and is arrested outside.

I don't know what this judge did here. If she did what the administration claims she did, there are other methods for dealing with it short of arresting her. For example, 20 years ago in New York, a judge interfered with an arrest and she got removed from the bench. The Justice Department could have complained to the Wisconsin State Commission on Judicial Conduct and said, this woman has overstepped her bounds - deal with it. Arrest - that feels very chilling and very concerning.

SANCHEZ: And Judge, what would the government need, as far as evidence, to prove that she obstructed - to prove that she's guilty of these charges?

KIESEL: Well, the charges, as I understand them, are both harboring a fugitive and obstructing. I don't know how they're going to prove harboring. Let's assume that the facts are true - that she guided this person through a side door to avoid getting arrest. At best, that sounds like obstruction.

And of course, the government would have to show that she intended to interfere with the arrest, and that she was able to do so, that she was aware of what was going to happen outside the hallway when he left the courtroom, and that she deliberately decided that she did not want that to happen. So - but harboring of fugitive, I - that feels like excessive to me in terms of overcharging, is the word I would probably use.

SANCHEZ: You touched on this a bit ago, but I'd love for you to expand on it - the message that this sends more broadly to judges across the country, especially given that this administration has described a number of decisions as being made by activist judges, and they've called for the impeachment of judges who've made decisions that have ruled against some of the things that this administration is trying to accomplish.

KIESEL: Well, look what's already happened today. The Attorney General of the United States goes on national television and calls this judge deranged, okay? It is yet another example of the one entity that has been standing up to the administration, which is the judiciary, as we've seen in multiple cases around the country. The one entity standing up to the Trump administration may now be the target.

Again, look - I can't tell you how strongly I feel that judges are sworn to uphold the law. I - if this happened, I don't necessarily condone it. However, going after judges by arresting them just feels like it's escalating this battle, if you will, between the administration and the judiciary, and it's a bad road to be going down.

SANCHEZ: Judge Diane Kiesel, always appreciate you sharing your point of view. Thanks for joining us.

KIESEL: Thank you for having me.

SANCHEZ: Brianna?

KEILAR: President Trump now slamming Ukraine for having not signed that rare earth deal - mineral deal - with the U.S. yet. Trump wrote on social media that while - and this is while he's traveling aboard Air Force One to the Pope's funeral, quote, "Ukraine, headed by Volodymyr Zelenskyy, has not signed the final papers on the very important rare earth deal with the United States.

[15:10:09]

It is at least three weeks late. Hopefully, it will be signed immediately." He went on to claim that work on an overall peace deal is going well.

This comes after U.S. envoy Steve Witkoff had a three-hour meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin today. The Kremlin saying the U.S. and Russia's positions on the U.S. peace plan moved closer. It also said that the two discussed resuming direct negotiations between Ukraine and Russia. This was just hours after another devastating wave of Russian attacks all across Ukraine.

Witkoff's trip to Russia also comes at a critical time, as Trump's self-imposed deadline of ending the war within his first 100 days in the White House nears. But this morning, Trump appeared to walk back on that deadline. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want to say 5,000 young men. They happen to be mostly Ukrainian - Russian. 5,000 young Ukrainian and Russian men. And that's a big honor, if I can do it. I think we're pretty close. No deadline. I just want to do it as fast as possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: is with us now. He served as the director for Russia on the National Security Council.

And, Jeff, we're seeing these two proposals kind of taking shape right now. You have the Ukrainian-European proposal. Then, you have the Witkoff-led U.S. proposal. And I wonder - before we talk about the details of them - how we should be seeing the players, right? Is it sort of like Europe is the proxy negotiator for Ukraine, and then you have Russia over here? And then what exactly is the U.S.?

JEFFREY EDMONDS, FORMER DIRECTOR FOR RUSSIA, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: Right. This is very different than what we saw in the previous administration. It seems as though this administration is prioritizing its return to normal relations with Russia. And the Russia-Ukraine war itself is the barrier to improved U.S.-Russia relations, whereas Europe still rightly sees Russia as an adversary and is staying on the side of Ukraine.

KEILAR: And to that point, that's where you see Trump lambasting Zelenskyy over not signing this deal.

EDMONDS: That's right.

KEILAR: What do you see as he saying, hey, you're overdue in signing this? I mean, why would Zelenskyy hesitate to sign that?

EDMONDS: I think insofar as the deal helps keep the United States supporting Ukraine, it's useful. But the deal itself really doesn't amount to much. We don't know about how many rare minerals are actually in Ukraine - those are Soviet-era surveys - and so it's not clear what the deal actually brings. But I think Zelenskyy is open to it because it helps keep the United States behind Ukraine, at least to some degree. So it's a question of why he wouldn't move forward and sign it.

KEILAR: Yes. Maybe he doesn't want to give it away at this point, you know? We'll have to see. Things aren't going that great for Ukraine as far as getting what they want right now. They can't be very thrilled with where the talks are. What do you think about the issues that are being discussed?

EDMONDS: I think that the general approach that the administration is taking is fundamentally flawed. I think they've made two errors in their - in the assumptions they made coming into this. One is that this is about land. Putin did invade Ukraine for land. He invaded Ukraine to change Ukraine's direction, strategic direction, so it wasn't oriented towards Europe. It's oriented towards Kyiv and to demilitarize Ukraine.

The second is that we have absolute leverage over the Ukrainians. But Ukrainians have a vote in this. And they're actually doing better. The battlefield is better than I think a lot of people understand. And they certainly have the ability to resist for at least the coming year.

KEILAR: So, when you have this Europe-Ukraine proposal that envisages a ceasefire, followed by discussions - then discussions - about territory, Kyiv receiving Article 5-like guarantees with allies. And then you have the U.S. proposal, which is more like robust security guarantees, which would be weaker, right? But then you have the U.S. recognizing Crimea as Russian, which is huge. I mean, so we can't overstate, right, how big that would be. How does Putin see that?

EDMONDS: I think Putin's delighted by what he's seen. I mean, it really does set a very dangerous international precedent to recognize something like Crimea. That doesn't mean that we think the Ukrainians should be trying to, you know, seize Crimea right now. That would be a waste of resources. But it doesn't mean you recognize it. Because it really does set that very dangerous precedent - but a precedent that Putin would love to have established.

KEILAR: I'm always watching Putin to see how he responds in a moment as he has a meeting. Because he does - sometimes he plays things close to the vest. But he seemed elated today as he was welcoming Witkoff. I wonder what you thought about this meeting.

EDMONDS: So, you know, if you think back to both the Obama and the Biden administrations, there was a lot of work put in to isolate Russia after its initial invasion of Crimea, and especially after 2022. Anything that Russia can do to undermine that isolation, he's totally open for. That's why he's delighted to have these multiple meetings with senior U.S. officials - because it really undermines that international sense that we need to isolate Russia.

[15:14:59]

KEILAR: And he - though, Witkoff did go to this meeting just after a Russian general was killed in a very dramatic fashion in a car bomb, just about 20 miles from Moscow. How does - what is the message there to Putin from that? How does he receive that?

EDMONDS: Well, I think that there's a message to Putin there, but there's also a message to senior staff. But there's also a very pragmatic wartime message in that, this particular general was a senior planner - kind of like our Joint Staff - but very high up in the organization that plans and helps execute operations in Ukraine. So there's actually a pragmatic impact in doing that as well.

KEILAR: It's very interesting. Obviously, a key moment, as we've been at so many of them. We'll have to see where this goes.

Jeff, great to have you. Thank you so much.

EDMONDS: Thanks. KEILAR: And still to come, Beijing insisting no official trade talks with Washington are taking place, despite President Trump saying that there are. We'll have the latest.

Plus, Trump officials considering sweeping changes at FEMA that would make it much more difficult for states to qualify for federal disaster assistance.

And then later, Beyonce's mother is speaking out about her life, her career, and motherhood. We'll have that and much more coming up on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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[15:20:35]

SANCHEZ: The art of the dodge - that appears to be President Trump's approach to handling certain questions about China and his trade war. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said you spoke with President Xi ...

TRUMP: I did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... have you spoken to him since the tariffs? When did you last speak with him?

TRUMP: I don't want to comment on that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Time Magazine said that President Xi called you? When did that happen? And what did you discuss?

TRUMP: I'll let you know at the appropriate time. Let's see if we can make a deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: The President refused to give details there, but moments ago on Air Force One, he did tell reporters that he would not drop any China tariffs, quote, "unless they give us something substantial." When he was pressed on what would be substantial, he implied open trade.

In the meantime, right now, American consumers are unhappy. Consumer sentiment plunging another 8 percent in April. This is according to a study from the University of Michigan.

With us now is Justin Wolfers. He's a professor of economics and public policy at the University of Michigan.

Justin, great to see you. Consumer sentiment plunging in April from March. How significant a drop is 8 percent?

JUSTIN WOLFERS, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS AND PUBLIC POLICY, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: The declining consumer sentiment over the past couple of months has been as rapid and as fast as I think we've ever seen. The decline in business confidence is roughly the same. The rise in inflation expectations is about as rapid as we've ever seen. The share of people who think unemployment's going to rise over the next year has risen dramatically - and on and on and on it goes.

The American people right now are really very, very worried about the state of the economy.

SANCHEZ: And sentiment also worsened across demographics too - age, education, income, even political affiliation. I wonder what that tells you.

WOLFERS: Well, I think it tells you that the American people are no economic fools. They understand what's happened over the past three months. They understand that back in January we had an economy that was moving along pretty well - as fast as any major industrialized country. And they've seen the enormous chaos subsequently.

There's been an enormous decline in financial markets. People are losing faith in the bet on American business. And it's not that they don't believe in American business - it's that they don't believe in the environment within which Americans have to do business.

This is the first time in my lifetime as an economist in which I've seen a purely government-caused economic slowdown.

SANCHEZ: So, walk us through two things, how does that affect their spending habits? But then also, if the safe harbor historically for uncertain times has been the American dollar, treasury bonds - and that appears to be in question - where do you think that money is going to wind up going?

Right. So let's start with the kitchen table economics. The overwhelming thing right now is not just a fear of tariffs, but also fear of the unknown. There's a tremendous spike in the degree of uncertainty. You just don't know what's going to happen tomorrow - let alone next week or next year.

I've got a mate who's looking to buy an air conditioner. And he said, should I buy it now? It's imported. Well, right now the tariff's 145 percent on imported air conditioners from China. So maybe he could wait, hoping to get a bit of action where we get back to a more sustainable level. Or maybe he should buy it now, because Trump might up the tariffs yet again. And he's frozen in place.

And then you can move from the kitchen table to the boardroom. Put yourself in the shoes of any CEO around the country right now. You've got plans - maybe to expand, open a new factory, open a new storefront. But do you really want to make that investment right now, or wait a few months to see how everything's going to shake out? Because it's not just that you're going to lose the access to foreign markets and all sorts of opportunities to do business abroad - it's also that the inputs that you use are going to go up. Or maybe they're not. Or maybe it's completely uncertain. And so the - that, I think, is going to stop investment in its tracks. And then we've seen investors - as in financial flows - away from the United States. Normally, in uncertain times, people put their money under the metaphorical mattress. And the metaphorical mattress is lending money to the U.S. government. It was always regarded as the safest bet out there. But over the last month or so, we've seen the dollar weaken. And we've seen bond yields rise - suggesting that people no longer believe that this is a safe place to stash their money.

SANCHEZ: Justin Wolfers, thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate the expertise.

[15:25:03]

WOLFERS: Mate, I wish I had better news.

SANCHEZ: Still appreciate walking through the details there and the analysis, as always. Thanks so much.

Still ahead, Georgia's Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger is urging the Trump administration to reconsider deporting certain Afghan refugees. He's going to join us after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[15:30:02]

KEILAR: Georgia's Republican Secretary of State has just sent a letter to Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem, asking the Trump administration to reconsider deporting Afghan Christian refugees.