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Controllers Union Says Newark Delays Caused by Employees' Leave Or Absence; Trump Won't Rule Out Using Military Force to Obtain Greenland; Americans Still Don't Know How and When to Wash Their Hands. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired May 05, 2025 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: The union representing air traffic controllers is speaking out about the critical staffing shortage that's causing major problems at Newark Liberty International Airport. For the eighth straight day, hundreds of flights have been canceled or delayed.

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: There's a lot of delays and cancellations and now the union and a separate CNN source familiar with the situation say it is in part, get this, because several air traffic controllers had to take a leave of absence last month after equipment problems cut off communication with the planes and left them traumatized.

CNN aviation correspondent Pete Muntean joins us now. I mean, I read that earlier Pete and I thought how bad did it have to be that they're at the point where they were too traumatized to come to work? This is awful and scary.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: These new developments really paint the best picture yet of why we've had these eight days of delays for flights going into and out of Newark. Here is the latest. This all goes back to an incident last Monday at the key radar facility responsible for flights departing and approaching Newark.

A source familiar with that incident tells me that controllers there lost both radio communications and the picture on their radar scopes for an undisclosed time, meaning those controllers were essentially trying to do their jobs blind. They call it NORDO, no radio, which led to at least five controllers taking what's called trauma leave, which they're legally allowed to do. They're now off for the next 45 days.

This is a huge development and we know that the FAA has been investigating the cause of the equipment outage that triggered these staffing shortages. Just last week the FAA acting chief told me a team has been on the ground to figure out the nature of that equipment problem. But now Senate Democrat Chuck Schumer is calling for the Department of Transportation Inspector General to launch a probe immediately.

This is what he said about the outage at that Newark radar facility. He says the equipment there is aging and it must be fixed yesterday. Listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), MINORITY LEADER: The technology is old and must be updated. It was one of the things that -- one of the things that happened at Newark is a copper wire burnt. Why are we using copper wire in 2025? Have they heard of fiber?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MUNTEAN: That sound bite is a heater and he flew it right over the plate. Copper wire, he says, is the cause of this issue initially. Schumer also called out the FAA's move of that Newark radar facility from Long Island, New York to Philadelphia.

The FAA did that last July in hopes of enticing new hires and shoring up its staffing problems. Schumer says it's actually made problems worse. Newark is really emblematic, though, of the air traffic control staffing problems nationwide and the Union of Air Traffic Controllers says there's still 3,000 controllers short nationwide.

They're also clarifying this one point. Last Friday, United Airlines CEO Scott Kirby sent out a memo to passengers in which he said that controllers walked off the job. That union says it's unfair because controllers were traumatized and they took this leave.

Once again, something that they're legally allowed to do.

HILL: Wow. That is a lot. I'm still, I have to say honestly, you're processing all of it. We did also want to ask you about, there's some new reporting you have about the army pausing helicopter flights here in D.C.

MUNTEAN: The big thing here is this all stems back to an incident last Thursday. It was about 2:30 in the afternoon when planes were coming into Reagan National Airport and this helicopter from the same army battalion that was involved in that midair collision back on January 29th was arriving at the Pentagon, not too far away. We're talking as the crow flies, maybe a half mile, maybe not even.

And so the controller in the tower there at Reagan National Airport told these flights to go around because that controller feared that these airplanes and helicopter were ultimately getting too close to one another.

Nobody heard in this. Those planes came back around and did successful landings. There's been a bit of a scuttlebutt here about why the helicopter was there, if it was supposed to be flying around the Pentagon, if they were taking the scenic route, that's what the FAA initially said. Or if they were actually not actually cleared to land at the Pentagon and told to go around once themselves.

So now the big development here is that the army says it is suspending flights by the 12th aviation battalion around the Pentagon and around Reagan National Airport. This is essentially a huge admission here and the army is now trying to backpedal to make it so that this does not come off badly on them. There's been a lot of scrutiny about helicopter flights in the D.C. area since that crash.

HILL: Yes, wow. Pete, thank you.

MUNTEAN: Anytime.

[15:35:00]

HILL: Just ahead here, President Trump says he cannot rule out using military force to take Greenland. We'll discuss with a former U.S. ambassador to Denmark after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: President Trump renewing his push to annex Greenland. The president says he believes the Danish territory is vital for U.S. national security interests. And once again, said he wouldn't rule out using military force to add Greenland into the fold.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are not ruling out military force to take Greenland.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't rule it out. I don't say I'm going to do it, but I don't rule out anything. No, not there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you need --

TRUMP: We need Greenland very badly.

[15:40:00]

Greenland is a very small amount of people, which we'll take care of and we'll cherish them and all of that. But we need that for international security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: In recent months, you'll recall the president has sent representatives to visit Greenland, including the Vice President, J.D. Vance, joining us now to discuss former U.S. ambassador to Denmark, Rufus Gifford. It's good to have you with us this afternoon.

You know, when we when we look at this situation, what we have heard repeatedly from the president, from the administration, is that this is a matter of U.S. national security. That is absolutely why America needs Greenland. How high on the priority list is America's national security for Greenland, for Denmark?

RUFUS GIFFORD, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO DENMARK UNDER OBAMA: Look, Erica, this is such an extraordinary situation that we're in right here, and I don't think we can minimize it at all. Firstly, I understand the concept of national security. Frankly, we used to have a larger military national security presence in Greenland that has been scaled back in recent years. If we wanted an enhanced American presence in Greenland, all we would have to do is do essentially Diplomacy 101, sit across the table from some of our best allies, the Danes, the Greenlanders, and we would get everything we want. But this sort of authoritarian talk from the president of the United States, and this is obviously as someone who's proudly served our country, is extraordinary. This is the kind of talk that we as Americans used to fight against.

What he is saying is he is considering using the United States military in order to invade a NATO ally. It's really heartbreaking, I think, as someone who served in this post, who understands this relationship, who has been to Greenland nine times, to hear the United States use words like this, again, against one of our best allies, the Danes and the Greenlanders, is truly heartbreaking.

HILL: You know, to your point, Denmark, also, of course, a founding member of NATO, if this situation were to actually unfold, if the U.S. attempted to encroach on Greenland militarily, would then the U.S. be in violation of Article 5?

GIFFORD: It's a great question, Erica, and I think that it's impossible to know because, again, when NATO was founded, the idea that one NATO ally would invade another was unthinkable. And the idea that the most important NATO member in the United States of America is actually threatening an invasion of another NATO country, theoretically, it would invoke Article 5, absolutely. But the fact is, the United States would have veto power in that case, in that scenario. So you really don't know what would happen.

What you have is one ally and the best alliance. Remember, the Western alliance has kept the world peaceful and prosperous for the last 80 years, NATO and then some.

And you would have the best allies in the world forced to make a choice. Do we defend Greenland or do we fight with the United States? And how extraordinary and terrifying is that? And I think we have to call out this kind of authoritarian rhetoric when we hear it from the president.

HILL: So there's also -- what's also fascinating to me is you -- I don't want to put words in your mouth -- but you're basically saying, look, there's a better way to go about this, right? Yes, you mentioned diplomacy, but there's also the reality of this defense cooperation deal that was agreed to under President Biden. Reuters now reporting that they're pretty close, right, to locking this in.

This deal between the U.S. and Denmark could be signed as early as next month. It would expand the U.S. military's rights in Denmark. Would that essentially achieve the objectives of President Trump here?

GIFFORD: So yes is the answer. Again, I am someone who has gone to the prime minister, foreign minister of Denmark, and asked for whether his troops to be sent into harm's way. Without exception, I always got a yes because the Danes always respected and wanted to be close partners with the United States. We were their number one ally. So if what we wanted -- if we wanted to sit across the table from

Danes and the Greenlanders and achieve those national security goals, which frankly I support, Erica, emphatically, the Russians have built up their presence in the Arctic. And we do need to respond.

And I do believe to a certain extent the West, NATO, our alliances have taken our eye off the ball there. And we have some work to do, but we can do it with American leadership and bringing our allies along with us. And again, that in my mind is what has actually made America great over the course of the last 80 years.

[15:45:00]

HILL: Former Ambassador Rufus Gifford, good to have you here this afternoon. Thank you.

GIFFORD: Thank you, Erica.

HILL: Still ahead here, the surprising results of a new survey about the hand-washing habits of your fellow Americans. That's right, all the people around you who you might interact with. Just wait until you hear the sheer number of people who say, oh, they forgot, or maybe they just didn't feel like washing their hands at important times, like, oh, when you use the bathroom, people. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Happy World Hand Hygiene Day for all those who observe it. And according to a new survey, it appears many do not. The survey shows one in five people actively, actively choose not to wash their hands. Citing reasons like, gosh, I just didn't have the time.

HILL: Yes, I hate it when there's not enough time to wash your hands for 20 seconds.

[15:50:00]

Researchers found nearly half of adults admit to not washing their hands, specifically at key times. After visiting places like a grocery store or the doctor's office. And it turns out just 30 percent of survey takers say they're likely to wash their hands after they cough or sneeze.

Let's bring in the author of The Germ Files and The Germ Code, microbiologist, Jason Tetro. OK, how are you feeling about this survey, Jason? Is it stressing you out a little bit?

JASON TETRO, MICROBIOLOGIST: I got to admit, it's a little bit better than I expected.

HILL: Oh!

TETRO: I mean, we don't have to thank COVID for a lot, but in this particular case, we're getting a few more people actually believing that washing your hands is a good thing. So, you know, yay for hand hygiene. KEILAR: Oh my gosh. OK, well, let's talk about hand hygiene and the shortcut, right? Hand sanitizer. Is that good enough?

TETRO: Hey, hand sanitizer, 62 to 70 percent. You put it on, you keep it on for 15 to 20 seconds. It's going to be really, really good.

Now, is that going to be as good as hand washing? No, because that lovely soap removes all those germs and the grime and everything that the germs love to eat and gets that down into the sink. But if you don't have a sink, hand sanitizer, awesome way to go.

HILL: OK, so that's not a bad backup, so that's good to know. So we're going to walk through some scenarios with you. You let us know how to best respond.

So let's say you're just in a room with a sick person. You're not, you know, touching the sick person, but you're in the vicinity. How often do you need to wash your hands?

TETRO: Well, if you're in the vicinity and you happen to be touching the same surfaces as the other person, remember, when people cough and sneeze, those little droplets, they're going to get onto those surfaces. So what you want to do is watch where your hands are going. If you're touching all sorts of things, you're going to want to hand sanitize or wash those hands.

Otherwise, you may risk putting it into your own mouth and getting yourself sick.

KEILAR: OK, is there ever -- what if I'm like, yes, but I want some germs, I'm going to make myself healthy. Is there ever a case where it's good to expose -- he's laughing at me -- ever? No, that's a no, that's a no? All right.

HILL: I don't know when you were building immunity, right?

KEILAR: I feel like that's what we joke about with the kids. Is that not true?

TETRO: Well, it is true to some extent. And I mean, this is where parents all of a sudden unfriend me on Facebook, because the kids do need to get those infections happening to be able to develop that immune system. However, you should be getting it in slow and small increments, not in big ones that are going to cause you to be sick. Kind of like a vaccine, if you will.

But the thing is, is that 99.99 percent of all microbes that are out there have absolutely nothing to do with us and they're completely harmless. It's those 1,500 or so that we want to avoid. And unfortunately, you know, those are the ones that usually tend to be hanging around people and spreading, especially during, you know, cold, flu, COVID, norovirus seasons and all of that.

HILL: Which seems like year round these days. So when we are washing our hands, which hopefully we're all going to be doing even more after today, just to celebrate, what is the perfect technique? TETRO: OK, so the first thing you're going to do is you're going to wet your hands. Then you're going to get the soap into it. And then you're going to be going like this, making sure that you're rubbing all the different areas of your hands, because you never quite know.

And by the way, we've done studies, what places people don't wash their hands, here, it's pretty bad. So what you're going to do is you're going to rub that around for happy birthday twice. It's public domain, so you can sing it now.

Or as I like to say, say the alphabet backwards. You'd be surprised at how long that takes. Then once you've done that, you want to rinse, make sure that all that soap and all that grime is gone.

And then you can dry it. Doesn't matter if it's a hand dryer, it doesn't matter if it's a paper towel or just a regular towel. And then after that, you're pretty much good to go.

And do you need the hand sanitizer afterwards? Probably not, but some people still choose to do it.

KEILAR: OK, rapid fire round here. If you can tell us which is germier to touch, couch or toilet seat?

TETRO: Couch.

KEILAR: Oh, why?

HILL: Wow.

KEILAR: Not to get out of the rapid fire of it but tell us.

TETRO: Well, very, very quickly. Every one of us has a microbial cloud. We shed microbes about a million or more an hour.

So think of the time you're spending on a couch versus the time you're spending on a toilet, unless of course you have norovirus, at which point it goes out the window.

HILL: Let's not go down that road.

TETRO: But still. So the couch is going to be a lot germier than the toilet seat.

HILL: OK, plane or theater? Like movie theater?

TETRO: Plane.

HILL: Plane, yes, not surprising.

KEILAR: Plane.

TETRO: You have a higher amount of people turn over and they're there for a longer period of time.

[15:55:00] KEILAR: Cell phone or keyboard?

TETRO: You know, it was keyboard up until those smartphones came out, but yes, the cell phone is much more germy now and is actually a huge threat for spreading infectious diseases because people share their cell phones like they do their makeup. No.

KEILAR: Wow. You are blowing our minds and I'm going to wash some hands, like just that's what I'm going to do all day today. Jason Tetro, you're the best. Thank you so much.

TETRO: It was such a pleasure, take care.

KEILAR: All right, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:00:00]

HILL: One town resorting to extreme measures to cut down on some rather noisy residents. The people of Pinecrest, Florida, they've had it with the peacocks. The birds have completely overrun some neighborhoods.

And trust me, from a former peacock neighbor here, they're loud. You can hear them from like a mile away.

KEILAR: They scream.

HILL: They sure do.

KEILAR: And now there's a local vet curbing their growing numbers by giving them vasectomies. They have done this. They've lured them in, trappers have. And so far, nearly 400 peacocks have gotten the snip without a single complication. That is something I tell you.

All right, that's it for us. "THE ARENA" with Kasie Hunt starts right now.

END