Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

U.S. and Chinese Officials to Meet this Week in Switzerland; Cardinals in Sistine Chapel to Elect New Pope; Nuclear Powers India and Pakistan at Risk of Wider Conflict. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired May 07, 2025 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00]

SCOTT BESSENT, TREASURY SECRETARY: ...the long-term that it will drive growth in the economy, and as I've said many times, it is a mistake to look at trade in isolation. The Trump economic policy is a three- legged stool, trade, taxes, and deregulation, and we believe that the sum of the parts -- that the whole is greater than the parts, and as we complete each one of those, that the U.S. will see substantial economic growth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Now, Erica, part of the reason we're hearing this type of rhetoric from Bessent and other economic advisors is because they recognize there's a lot of pressure on them to try and deliver some sort of good news to the American people as they continue to worry about tariffs, and particularly as we're increasingly hearing from economists on Wall Street that there could potentially be a recession because of the president's tariff policy.

But I also want to talk about what you said earlier, which is that they're finally going to be talking with China this weekend. That is a huge development, and we have seen stocks up today because of that news. Essentially, Bessent and the United States Trade Representative Jameson Greer, they're going to be heading to Geneva this week, where they'll be meeting with their Chinese counterparts on Saturday and Sunday.

And last night, Bessent gave a little bit of a preview of what he's expecting from those talks while in an interview with Fox News. He essentially said that they have shared interests, that he believes that this current trade war with China is unsustainable. But then he said that his sense is that this will be about de-escalation, that you shouldn't expect some broad trade deal to come out of just this weekend in talks, but it's really about de-escalating the tensions right now between Washington and Beijing.

And the reason that's so important is because despite hearing from the president saying that we talk with China every day, we know that that's not necessarily true. Bessent himself yesterday, when he was also testifying before Congress, said that there haven't been any meaningful talks between the Trump administration and China at this point. And so this is really what they're trying to argue is a great first step to see how they can move forward and really move away from the escalating trade war between China and the United States.

And again, as a lot of people are worried about the economy and how these tariffs are impacting that, China is really the country that most people are worried about, because at this point, there hasn't really been any sort of off-ramp that they've seen. This could potentially be that off-ramp that many people are looking for -- Erica.

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: A lot of attention will be on those meetings this weekend and what we ultimately hear in terms of an outcome. Alayna appreciate it.

So who will be the next Pope? 133 cardinals are weighing that decision at this very moment. They, of course, are inside the Vatican Sistine Chapel. We'll have the latest on the conclave after this quick break.

[13:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: We are keeping a very close watch on the Vatican. 133 cardinals from around the world are now behind these doors. This is the moment, of course, that they were closed in for the conclave, where they will stay until they ultimately decide who will become the next pope.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And we are waiting for this, the smoke to begin billowing from that Vatican chimney, signaling whether a new pope has been elected or not. If any cardinals receives more than two- thirds of the votes, there will be white smoke rising. Black smoke will signal that they have not reached a decision and they're going to continue on to another round of voting.

As we wait, CNN Vatican analyst and Catholic priest Father Edward Beck is with us now to explain these secret proceedings and the role that the pope plays within the Catholic Church. Father Beck, first off, this actually isn't exactly the way this has always been done, right, as these cardinals have gathered to select the 267th pope. How has the conclave changed over time?

REV. EDWARD BECK, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Well, remember for the first thousand years, priests could even be married, so you had a lot of influences. So in the beginning, a pope was really just the Bishop of Rome, and local clergy with input from family would decide who's going to be Pope. And it wasn't until gradually the influence of the Pope began to spread through the Western world and became more powerful, so there was more political influence and more pressure put on the Pope.

So then they decided, no, you know, we're only going to have Cardinals vote, just administrative people who have certain functions within what we would call the Vatican now. So then it was just Cardinals.

But then in 1268, they were outside Rome in Viterbo. The election was not always in Rome. Sometimes it would be where the Pope had died, because the Pope would travel a lot, and so it wasn't always in Rome. It happened to be in a town called Viterbo in 1268. But it took three years for them to decide. And again, one of the reasons was they were not sequestered. And so what happened was the people of the town took the roof off of the place where they were meeting so that it would rain on them, and they would get wet.

And two of the Cardinals actually died because of the harsh climate. Then they began to starve them. It went from like they could get one meal a day and maybe a little wine.

And then after five days, they would only get bread and water as a way to make them decide. And so then it began to be -- it wasn't until after that, after that conclave, that the Pope was elected, Gregory X said, no more of this. They're going to be sequestered until they decide. No family influence. This isn't going to happen again. And we will starve them out if they don't decide.

And that's kind of how we eventually got to this conclave, the being locked in. But again, for the first thousand years, it wasn't that way.

And even since then, I mean, the Sistine Chapel, only 24 of the 226 popes that we've had were actually elected in the Sistine Chapel. So most of the Popes were elected someplace else. So we look at it now and we say, well, this is the way we've always seen it. But historically, of course, there's been an evolution.

HILL: Yes, there absolutely has been. So it's fascinating to think about all of the outside influence that there was at one time, especially perhaps from the spouses, from the wives, because I'm sure they had a thing or two to say, you know, as us ladies often do.

When you think about it now, it is so different. It's so secretive. But there are a number of meetings that happen, right, before we get to the point where we're actually in the conclave, where they have now been locked into this room. And a lot of those discussions, Father Beck, will will influence what happens behind those closed doors.

BECK: That's right. The meetings that were called the General Congregation. So remember, a lot of these Cardinals did not know each other because some of them came from countries that people had never even heard of.

That was Pope Francis's intention to appoint Cardinals from places that were kind of far flung so that we'd have this diversity. So then they came together for the meetings. But remember, we've had a two year process of a synod that Pope Francis initiated.

And the themes of that synod came up during these General Congregations, themes such of synodality and collaboration. So it means that not everything is centralized in Rome, that we don't have this centralization and this power here, but maybe the power can be spread around a little.

Stuff like climate change came up because Pope Francis, as we know, wrote Laudato Si, an encyclical on the environment, which got a lot of attention. And we know that climate change is an important aspect of the church and the world. So that was discussed.

Issues like the poor and immigration, which Pope Francis stressed, got discussed.

But then and other stuff that had come up in the synod, some of the bishops and cardinals, I mean, they didn't weigh in in the same way. I mean, issues like women in the church having bigger roles in the church, possibly ordaining women deacons was on the table for discussion. Some didn't even think it should be on the table.

Outreach to LGBTQ people and how Francis had started that and how he might continue it. A married priest came up, you know, places in the Amazon where they can't even have mass. Pope Francis brought up the discussion.

Well, maybe people of good virtue who are married, maybe they can be ordained. And some said, well, no, you can't do that. You can't. But I mean, in fact, we did it for a thousand years. So why can't we do it? Some of the others said.

So all of these issues with the next pope could really come up. I mean, because they're on the table as a result of the synod and this decentralization that Pope Francis began.

KEILAR: Really interesting. Father Beck, thank you so much at this pivotal moment as we are watching that chimney very carefully. We thank you for being with us.

BECK: Your welcome.

KEILAR: One of the world's most dangerous conflict zones flares up. Ahead, India and Pakistan on the brink of a wider conflict after retaliation following a tourist massacre in Kashmir. We'll explain why this is so worrisome. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

[13:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Two nuclear powers appear to be on the verge of a wider conflict after India launched a series of overnight airstrikes against Pakistan. In response, Pakistan's defense chief claims its military shot down five Indian fighter jets as part of what he calls a befitting lesson. Pakistani officials also say India's cross-border strikes killed 26 civilians, including a three-year-old girl.

India says it was targeting terrorist infrastructure in the wake of last month's massacre in Kashmir, when gunmen killed dozens of mostly Indian tourists in the disputed border region. India has blamed Pakistan for the attack. It's a claim that Pakistan denies.

CNN international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson reports that tensions have escalated since then.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (voice-over): Just after midnight, Pakistan's peace shattered. A wave of Indian missiles lighting up the sky, rocking the nation. Pushing two bitter nuclear- armed neighbors to the brink of all-out war.

[13:50:00]

Local resident Waqas Ahmed (ph) saying fear and terror spread in the people.

India says its attack hit nine sites as Pakistan's military mounted its defense.

LT. GEN. AHMED SHARIF CHAUDHRY, PAKISTAN MILITARY SPOKESPERSON: So far I can confirm you that five Indian aircrafts, which would include Rafale and one SU-30 and one MiG-29 have been shot down, and one drone has also been shot down.

ROBERTSON (voice-over) According to India, the strikes were in response to last month's killing of 26 civilians in Kashmir by militants. India says are from Pakistan, which Islamabad denies.

VIKRAM MISRI, INDIAN FOREIGN SECRETARY: These actions were measured, non-escalatory, proportionate and responsible. They focused on dismantling the terrorist infrastructure and disabling terrorists likely to be sent across to India.

ROBERTSON (voice-over): While India says it was pre-empting planned terror attacks, although provided no evidence of that claim. Among the more than two dozen killed in Tuesday night's air raid were children. Mosques were damaged.

An angered Pakistan has already vowed to respond.

LT. GEN. AHMED SHARIF CHAUDHRY, PAKISTAN MILITARY SPOKESPERSON: Pakistan reserves the right and will respond to this aggression at a time, place and means of our own choice.

ROBERTSON (voice-over): Deadly artillery shelling continues across the de facto border in disputed Kashmir. India warned Pakistan not to take it further.

COL. SOFIYA QURESHI, INDIA ARMY: It must be said that the Indian armed forces are fully prepared to respond to Pakistani misadventures, if any, that will escalate the situation.

ROBERTSON (voice-over): The country's leader, Narendra Modi, gathered his top officials on Wednesday in the wake of the strikes, which hit deeper inside Pakistan than any Indian attack for 50 years, long before either nation acquired a nuclear bomb.

Nick Robertson, CNN, Islamabad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KEILAR: Our thanks to Nic for that report. And we should note that CNN has not been able to independently verify Pakistan's claim to have shot down five Indian aircraft -- Erica.

HILL: So we're here now with CNN Chief National Security Analyst, Jim Sciutto. Jim, when we look at this map, right, and we look at -- walk us through why the stakes are so high in this moment, why we're at this point.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, one is, as Nic was referencing in his story, that India's strikes went further into Pakistan than they've done really, really in years. It was this strike, particularly down here. They have struck before in the Pakistan administered part of the disputed Kashmir territory, as they did again in the last couple of days.

But it was this strike way down here in Bahawalpur, one of the most significant that we've seen in the social media. Look at that, look at that explosion there just shows that this is quite a significant strike. That's deep in Pakistan proper.

So that's a direct attack on Pakistani territory. And that's the one where you have Pakistani officials saying this is a violation of our sovereignty.

HILL: Right, and we heard them say there, look, we will respond at a time of our choosing with means of our choosing. What does that retaliation look like? And can it be done without further escalating where we're at?

SCIUTTO: So the question is, where do they strike? Does Pakistan strike inside the India administered part of Kashmir, which has happened? And sadly, in this conflict, every couple of years, I was looking at my notes, it's every few years, 2019, 2016, 2014, 2013, where you have an exchange of fire of different size and significance, strikes inside here, there is precedent for.

If Pakistan were to strike inside India proper, you could imagine them saying it's proportional to India's strike inside Pakistan proper. That would, I don't know if you call it an escalation, but it would certainly be significant.

Now, we should note that the Pakistan defense minister told our colleague Becky Anderson earlier today that Pakistan is, in his words, trying to avoid striking inside Indian territory.

It seemed like he might have been sending a de-escalatory message. We'll only know when it happens.

HILL: We'll see, yes, in terms of how that was received. There's also, we can't talk about these two countries without talking about nuclear capabilities that continues to come up. That reality, though, would be unprecedented when we think about where we're at now. How likely is that scenario?

SCIUTTO: We don't know. I mean, the worry is that since they're both nuclear armed, if you get into an escalatory fight where -- and this is the thing with situations like this. One person's -- one side's proportional response might be to the other side escalatory, and then you end up in an escalatory ladder.

The most recent time it got quite close was in 2002. I was there at the time when tensions were so high that U.S. officials were alarmed that it might have led to a nuclear exchange.

[13:55:02]

Since then, I've been speaking to U.S. military officials. They believe both Pakistan and India have managed to keep a lid on the worst escalation scenarios. But listen, anytime you have two nuclear powers, and by the way, one of them just shot down another one of their jets.

So I mean, I know Pakistan is claiming they shot down five. We haven't confirmed that. But French officials are telling us that they did shoot down one, at least one, of India's jets. And that just shows you small encounters can lead to bigger ones.

HILL: Yes, absolutely. And it is further evidence of why it's so important to keep a close watch on all this. Jim, really appreciate it. Thank you.

Of course, we are also following developments out of the Vatican. The conclave now underway. 133 cardinal electors closed inside the Sistine Chapel while they will choose the next leader of the Catholic Church. We'll take you live to Rome after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END