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No Pope Chosen, Cardinals Prepare For Another Round Of Voting; Fired Federal Workers Struggle To Get Their Jobs Back; India Confirms It Targeted Pakistani Military Installations. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired May 08, 2025 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: And joining us now is Dr. Susan Reynolds. She's an assistant professor of Catholic studies at Emory University.

All right, let's start here. Do you expect that the cardinals will choose their pope today, on the second day of the conclave? I know that -- I think Pope Francis -- there were five votes. And so today that would sort of be five votes, I think, by the end of the day.

DR. SUSAN REYNOLDS, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF CATHOLIC STUDIES, EMORY UNIVERSITY (via Webex by Cisco): That's right. It's possible that they could choose the successor today. Both Francis and Benedict were elected on the second day. It's very possible that this will go into a third day. If it goes longer than a third day, then I think some eyebrows will start to raise about the suspicion of division amongst the cardinals.

SIDNER: I do want to ask you -- I mean, how long, historically, could this last because if you look way back, it went on I think for years?

REYNOLDS: Over the past century or so conclaves have tended to last well under a week, and that's kind of the norm. Centuries ago, of course, we had the famous conclave that lasted three years to the point where, you know, the people were so impatient that they started putting the cardinals on a diet of bread and water to get them to speed the process up. But sort of the modern conclave tends to last three days on average.

SIDNER: I'm curious because now that that sort of second set of votes into effect and you see the black smoke, and then they go to lunch. At lunch are they lobbying for the person they think should be it? I mean, what happens there? What are those conversations like?

REYNOLDS: The conservations happen. This is not a silent process. So, of course, they're not permitted to communicate with the outside world but, of course, they're talking to one another.

The lobbying that you see prior to the conclave takes on a more muted tone, one suspects, within the conclave itself.

Some of the men whose names have started to come up -- started to -- where support has started to coalesce around them -- they're also being approached at this point and people are asking them how -- if you're chosen, will you accept? Because after a two-thirds majority is reached the winner of the vote is asked "Do you accept the papacy?" And you don't want to get to that point and have someone say, "Well, actually guys, there's something I've been meaning to tell you."

And so they're having conversations with the sort of so-called frontrunners and they're having conversations with themselves as well.

SIDNER: Yeah. Sort of that deep reflection, although I had read that one of -- one of the cardinals has a novel with him because there can be some times where there's just like a lot of time between -- where he's reading like a murder mystery.

Cardinal Pietro Parolin is the one that we're hearing a lot about in the media, at least, and he's the Vatican Secretary of State and a good friend of the late Pope Francis.

What do you think his chances are?

REYNOLDS: Well, he's interesting because he has the support of, in a certain way, the old guard. He's kind of the institutional pick. Of course, he's the Secretary of State. He's someone who is very diplomatic. He's kind of a moderate as well. He doesn't have that incredibly effusive pastoral style of Francis.

But I think he's also being cast as kind of a contrast candidate to some of the sort of more overtly pastoral, outgoing frontrunners like Tagle or Zuppi, for example.

It's not clear where he would stand, I think, on the continuity of the sort of profound reforms that Francis started to institute. He's somebody that I think would strike a middle line -- a sort of a moderate line. And he was being lobbied for quite vocally by some of the non-voting cardinals -- the cardinals who are --

SIDNER: Very interesting.

REYNOLDS: -- over 80, which is why I called him a favorite of the sort of the old guard.

So during the pre-conclave period he was somebody that you heard a number of the non-voting members -- like Cardinal Re, for example, who celebrated Francis' funeral -- sort of -- sort of putting his name out there and lobbying for him.

So it's hard to tell how that will play within the conclave because that kind of lobbying can turn people off as well.

SIDNER: Right, and there's a lot of questions. You've got Africa, which has a huge number of people who are becoming Catholic, and Asia as well -- you mentioned Tagle -- who are all in play. So we will see what happens here.

Susan Reynolds, thank you so much. That was great. Appreciate you -- John. JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. This morning we're expecting an announcement from the Department of Transportation on plans to modernize air traffic control systems nationwide. Outdated technology and multiple close calls are turning up the pressure for change.

[07:35:00]

CNN's Tom Foreman went to get to a -- went to a tower simulator to get a sense of the challenges.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: How much do I have to be thinking about the second plane behind him here?

TERRY CRAFT, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, COMMUNITY COLLEGE OF BALTIMORE COUNTY: A lot. There could be a hundred aircraft in your airspace.

FOREMAN: Some may be small and slow; some may be big and fast.

CRAFT: That's correct.

FOREMAN (voiceover): Terry Craft knows how dangerous even a moment of unexpected silent from an air traffic control center can be.

How much space do you need between the southwest and the heavy?

FOREMAN (voiceover): He's a lifelong controller and supervisor now turned instructor in this tower simulator at the Community College of Baltimore County.

FOREMAN: You're just looking at all of these and just like that another one just shows up.

CRAFT: Oh, they just keep popping up.

FOREMAN: And this can change unbelievably dramatically in 10 seconds.

CRAFT: Oh, not even 10 seconds.

FOREMAN (voiceover): Key to the problem, an air control system that is already under enormous pressure. With 45,000 flights and nearly three million passengers daily in the United States, the workload for control towers is staggering.

FOREMAN: You could have 25 to 50 aircraft in this area that you're managing all at once?

CRAFT: Well, for -- you can see them coming in.

JOE EICHELBERGER, AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL PROGRAM MANAGER, COMMUNITY COLLEGE OF BALTIMORE COUNTY: We have by far, by orders of magnitude, the largest air traffic system in the world. We do more movements just in the states of California and Texas than most countries do in a year.

FOREMAN: Cherokee 228 Lima Bravo cleared for the approach runway --

CRAFT: 1-6.

FOREMAN: -- 1-6.

CRAFT: So now they get to go here.

FOREMAN (voiceover): Training a new controller can take up to seven years and approximately 40 to 50 percent of applicants do not successfully finish the demanding courses at the FAA Academy. Programs like this help students beat those odds, but staff shortages are common.

CRAFT: The less controllers you have on duty the more those controllers are working harder for the same volume of traffic.

FOREMAN: Are some facilities out there routinely operating almost at their maximum level?

CRAFT: Oh, absolutely.

FOREMAN (voiceover): And the technical problems are well documented. Outdated equipment, spotty communications, sometimes leading to dire moments like Newark saw just days ago.

PILOT: United 674 approach.

AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER: 674, radar contact lost. We lost our radar, so just stay on the arrival and maintain 6,000.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Tom Foreman. Thank you so much.

Let's turn to the sports. It was another bad night for John Berman, another great night for the entire studio crew though. The New York Knicks do it again, storming back to beat the Boston Celtics. The Knicks now head to their home court, Madison Square Garden, with a 2- game lead in this series.

Andy Scholes has it for us. This is becoming -- I have no dog in this fight, and this is becoming my most favorite series watching the battle between Berman and the entire crew.

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: It's been good on the court, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Show Lulu (PH).

SCHOLES: I'm sure it's good there --

BOLDUAN: Lulu, take your shirt off.

SCHOLES: -- in the studio as well.

And you know what? The Knicks -- they probably had Berman trash- talking from a week ago just on loop at the practice facility, right, because Berman -- anytime something bad happens to the Knicks he loves talking about it.

But hard not to talk about the Knicks with a big smile on your face this morning if you are a Knicks fan. This team is just incredible and last night it became the first team ever to win consecutive playoff games after trailing by 20 or more.

The Celtics -- they were up 20 late in the third and then they were up 16 with under 8 1/2 to go, but then they went ice cold. Boston's rough shooting just continues. They missed 13 straight shots in the fourth.

And the Knicks, meanwhile -- they just kept on grinding. And you know if it's close, New York knows they've got the best closer in the game. Jalen Brunson, a bucket here. He gives the Knicks their first lead with under two to go. The Knicks were then up by one in the closing seconds. They smothered Jayson Tatum. Mikal Bridges gets the steal and heaves it down the court.

The Knicks would win 91-90 after another amazing comeback and they now lead the series two games to none.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM THIBODEAU, HEAD COACH, NEW YORK KNICKS: When you get to the playoffs it's about really your mental toughness, your defense, and your teamwork. And always having the belief that you could do something better, and you could find a way to win.

JALEN BRUNSON, GUARD, NEW YORK KNICKS: Going home, realizing the opportunity we have now, we've just got to make sure we're still locked in. We're nowhere close to being done. Just keep making sure our mindset is the same.

JAYLEN BROWN, FORWARD BOSTON CELTICS: What's done is done. Now we've got an opportunity to just see what we're made of and come out and try to make something happen in game three.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHOLES: Yeah, Knicks fans were just going crazy outside of Madison Square Garden, once again, at the watch party.

Game three is at MSG Saturday afternoon at 3:30 Eastern. The cheapest ticket on StubHub right now is going for about 800 bucks. That place is going to be rocking.

All right, the Warriors, meanwhile, announcing that Steph Curry has a grade one left hamstring strain and is going to miss at least one week. Golden State was able to win game one against the Timberwolves without Steph for most of it. Game two is tonight. The earliest Steph would return would be game five, which would be May 14.

[07:40:00]

In the Stanley Cup Playoffs, Mitch Marner -- he had the game-winning goal in the third period for the Maple Leafs. And their fans rejoicing as they take a 2-0 lead over the defending champion Panthers. Mikko Rantanen, meanwhile, picking up right where he left off in the

second round. The Stars' wing had a hat trick in game seven in the win over the Avalanche. He had another hat trick in game one against the Jets. Rantanen is the third player in NHL history and the first in 40 years with consecutive hat tricks in the playoffs.

Dallas would win 3-2 to take a 1-0 lead in that series.

And Kate, you know, back to the Knicks. Teams that win the first two games of a series on the road, like the Knicks did -- they go on to win 85 percent of the time. So you can ask John how he's feeling about that this morning.

SIDNER: No, Kate -- uh-uh.

BOLDUAN: I think that's going to be the tagline for it all -- "And back to the Knicks."

SIDNER: OK.

BOLDUAN: Just like every story we do for the next who knows how long.

SIDNER: Andy Scholes -- OK, here's what's happened.

BOLDUAN: What's happened?

SIDNER: Because of your reporting, Mr. Scholes, on this game and going back to the Knicks, and back to the Knicks, and back to the Knicks, and back to the Knicks, John's refusing to work. He sent me out here. He said I don't want to be anywhere near that.

BOLDUAN: Wait, he's quit, finally? We finally broke the man.

SIDNER: He's (INAUDIBLE).

BOLDUAN: Oh, it took us a long time.

SIDNER: (INAUDIBLE).

SCHOLES: Always he's mysteriously absent when something good happens in New York sports.

SIDNER: It is odd. Is it --

BOLDUAN: He has very good survival skills. We'll give him that. We will give him that. Great to see you, Andy.

SIDNER: I'm hoping they pull off a full win, and there's that.

BOLDUAN: I just -- I just want it to be a great series.

SIDNER: Oh, God, please.

BOLDUAN: A great competition.

SIDNER: Oh, wow. Get outta here. A girl from Indiana saying that. OK, Hoosier. I got you.

Still ahead, the man accused of crashing his car through Jennifer Aniston's front gate while she was at home will be in court today, and he's facing felony stalking charges.

And in India and Pakistan they are both claiming victory after this week's clashes. Will this mean that war is not imminent?

Those stories ahead.

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:46:40]

SIDNER: President Trump's mass firings of federal employees have left many fighting an uphill battle to try to get their jobs back. This comes as the president has weakened federal labor boards, which protect workers' rights, and installed loyalists in key positions.

CNN senior reporter Michael Cohen -- Marshall Cohen. Michael Cohen? Child, I've just lost my mind. Marshall Cohen joins me now with more. Hey, Marshall.

MARSHALL COHEN, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Hey, Sara. Good morning.

So you've heard all about these mass firings of federal employees across the U.S. government -- a huge priority for the Trump administration. And according to our latest count they've already hit more than 121,000 federal employees with layoffs, or they have been targeted for layoffs.

But what you may not have heard about were these behind-the-scenes moves that the president and his team have been taking to make it harder for those employees to ever get their jobs back. Remember, these are public servants. There are laws on the books that protect their rights -- protect them from arbitrary firings or partisan firings.

The whole point is to keep a professional, reliable, and nonpartisan civil service but Trump has been weakening that with some of these moves.

He has hobbled two federal labor boards that are supposed to be places where employees can go to file grievances and hear their concerns in front of an independent arbiter. Those boards are still functional, but they are not at full strength because the president has deprived them of a quorum.

He has also installed loyalists at a key agency that is supposed to protect employees and was arguing in favor of reinstating many of those fired workers, but the loyalists who are now in charge have reversed those positions and have been advocating on behalf of the administration instead of the employees.

And then finally, also, the president signed an executive order a few weeks ago trying to end collective bargaining for most federal workers, which one union leader that I spoke to who works at the IRS said has made it a lot harder for them to effectively coordinate and communicate with their members who are wondering what recourse they still have left.

Let me be very clear that the White House and the Trump administration have argued that everything they're doing is completely legal and is just part of their efforts to make a more efficient government.

We've got a statement from the White House press secretary Karoline Leavitt, which I will read for you here. "President Trump is the chief executive of the executive branch and reserves the right to fire anyone he wants."

And Sara, with that attitude and in addition to all the layoffs, a lot of federal workers that we've spoken to have said they're just taking the resignation offers, further shrinking the size of the government -- Sara.

SIDNER: He is certainly stacking the decks against them.

Thank you so much, Marshall Cohen, for your great reporting there -- John.

BERMAN: All right. Breaking this morning, India confirmed targeted air defense systems in several locations throughout Pakistan. The announcement marks the first time India has taken ownership for targeting Pakistani military installations as feared of a -- fears of a wider regional conflict continue to grow.

With us now is CNN military analyst and retired U.S. Army Major Gen. James "Spider" Marks. And geopolitical analyst and former editor of the Hindustan Times, Bobby Ghosh.

I think both of you gentlemen feel that each nation is looking for a way to declare victory and get out of this, but how they find a way to do that is the question here.

[07:50:05]

And Spider, let me just start with you. From a military standpoint what are we seeing on the ground right now?

MAJ. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST (via Webex by Cisco): John, I think what's going to happen next is Pakistan certainly reserves the right to respond and has indicated that they will respond. I think that's true. But I think it's going to be very measured.

Look, the Pakistan military is not as -- number one, as large and as professional as the Indian military. And I think there's some symbolism here. Pakistan, to its people, must respond in some way irrespective of the ownership of the terrorist organization that Pakistan legitimately hosts with inside its border and conducted the raid into India a couple of weeks ago and murdered 26 people.

Pakistan will probably respond, and it will go against targets that I think are known to both sides. Look, the Kashmir has been fought over and has been contested for decades. China also, bear in mind, has a dog in this fight because they share that border -- that contested region.

So I think what's going to happen is there will be a response. I think it'll be measured. And I think both sides will probably say we've maintained our honor, and we can walk away from this. Also, we need to see what both Beijing and the United States is doing in terms of trying to counsel those moves.

BERMAN: All right, I want to get to both those points with you, Bobby. First, what will it take for each side to walk away?

BOBBY GHOSH, GEOPOLITICS ANALYST, FORMER EDITOR, HINDUSTAN TIMES: I think Spider put it best. Each side has to be able to say something. Each side, through their propaganda, has to be able to convey to their own people that we're walking away with our honor intact.

And we've seen this movie before. This has happened several times in this conflict, most recently in 2019. On that occasion India struck back after a terrorist attack and hit several targets in Pakistan. But an Indian plane went down. The Pakistanis arrested the pilot and then returned the pilot home.

And that was Pakistan saying here is a gesture of magnanimity on our part. We're the bigger people here. And the Indians said well, we were able to hit targets in Pakistan, so we've got what we wanted.

That's what you need here. It would help to have a mediator to bring both sides to the table and allow them that opportunity. Right now, the most obvious mediator is a little bit out of it. The United States and the Trump administration has other priorities.

BERMAN: Well, talk to me about that more.

GHOSH: Yeah.

BERMAN: What has been your impression of the United States -- the statements and the level of involvement from the U.S. here?

GHOSH: Well, it has been very interesting. The difference is this time Trump's first response was well, I hope they sort it out, which is very different from him. He usually likes to say, I'm going to go there and fix it or if they have me, I'll fix it like that. This time his first response was well, I hope this gets resolved quickly. Very passive.

Now he's offering to go in there and mediate. That's different. The problem is we have no ambassadors. The Trump administration has really struggled to get ambassadors into India and Pakistan.

And Trump himself clearly does not understand the nature of the conflict. He said yesterday these countries have been fighting for centuries. These countries have not existed for centuries. They're 78 years old. There are old, longstanding grievances but if you start from the

assumption that, oh, these people have been fighting for centuries, that's not a good place for a mediator to start. A mediator has to understand what is at stake for both countries. He has to understand what each side is prepared to give, and what each side needs to take in order to walk away from the table and declare victory. And it's not clear to me that the American president has that understanding of the situation.

BERMAN: Spider, what can go wrong here?

MARKS: Well, both nations are nuclear armed. That's the primary concern. I mean, that's the bar over which we hope they cannot even close to crossing. That's the big concern. Look, those are -- those are, again, very professionally manned and there are protocols around those. So I think we should be aware of that and probably not too concerned.

But if Pakistan responds and if then India responds we're now into a cycle of action-reaction-counteraction and that doesn't always have a good off-ramp.

BERMAN: And Bobby, it seems -- I know there's an element -- the word you use to me in the break is "kabuki theater" to this where India and Pakistan have gone through instances of this before. But it does feel as if the nations are pushing the boundaries maybe a little more than we've seen in the past.

GHOSH: Yes.

BERMAN: You know, the shooting down of five aircraft allegedly. Shooting inside the borders exclusively.

Are they pushing the boundaries of what could be kabuki theater?

GHOSH: They kind of have to each time and that's the risk with these kinds of longstanding conflicts. Every time there is a spasm of violence there's almost -- by sort of natural law each spasm tends to be worse than the one before. And the real concern, as Spider said there, is that because these two are nuclear-armed countries you worry that each spasm might get to the point where -- of no return. That's the real concern.

[07:55:05]

Yes, both countries have the leadership, and both countries have a lot of experience in managing these kinds of crises, but each side feels like we've got to land one more blow, one more jab every time. And the trouble is that when one side goes too far and then the thing really begins to careen out of control. That's the worst-case scenario.

BERMAN: And it --

GHOSH: We're not there yet, I should be very clear.

BERMAN: No. GHOSH: But the trouble -- and that's the ultimate -- the ultimate challenge here is that even when this particular spasm is resolved -- and let's hope that is quickly -- the underlying problem doesn't go away. We'll come back to this place. If it's not two years from now, then it's five years or hopefully, longer than that.

BERMAN: Right.

GHOSH: But we come back to this problem as long as the central problem, which is of Kashmir, does not get addressed.

BERMAN: Bobby Ghosh, Spider Marks, great to see both of you. Thank you very much -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: So dozens of pro-Palestinian protesters taken into custody Wednesday after a demonstration at Columbia University. Video from inside the library -- you see it there -- shows officers, at points, confronting several protesters. Columbia University officials asked the NYPD to help secure the library because they said that the protesters were in their words "causing substantial chaos and posed a serious risk to the students and campus safety." That came from a statement from the school's acting president.

The Associated Press reports that police took -- say at least 80 people were taken into custody.

The demonstrations come, of course, as universities, including Columbia, are facing pressure and threats of losing federal funding from the Trump administration over their handling of pro-Palestinian protests and antisemitism on campus.

The measles outbreak is still growing in the United States right now. The latest data coming in shows more than 1,000 confirmed cases of measles this year -- 1,002 cases to be exact. This is coming from data from the CDC and state health departments compiled by CNN.

This is only the second year that measles cases have been this high since the disease was declared eliminated in 2000. The context here is that the United States has typically seen just 180 cases of the measles annually since that year -- since 2000. Experts say the number of cases is still likely to be even much higher than what we're talking about in 1,000 because many cases go unreported.

And a reminder the measles vaccine is safe and has decades of clinical studies to show that. Among the most studied vaccines out there and the best way to protect yourself and your children from this dangerous disease.

A man accused of driving his car -- a car through the front gate of Jennifer Aniston's home is going to be arraigned in L.A. today. This is on felony stalking and vandalism charges. Now, a law enforcement source says that the man is accused of repeatedly harassing Aniston by sending her unwanted social media, voicemail, and email messages starting in 2023. She was home at the time of the incident. Police say a security guard actually held the man until officers got there. Prosecutors plan to request his bail to be set at $150,000 -- Sara. SIDNER: That's scary.

All right, thank you so much, Kate.

How long to die in the cold. That Google search, along with items found near John O'Keefe's body taking center stage on day 11 of Karen Read's murder re-trial. Read is accused of hitting O'Keefe, her Boston police officer boyfriend, with her car and leaving him to die in the snow.

CNN's Jean Casarez is following all the developments -- every detail. That Google search was made by a key witness. Give us some context about all of this.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN REPORTER: Well, let's start with inside the courtroom. You know, it's always a pivotal moment when the evidence bag comes out and actual evidence from the scene is shown to the jury. That happened yesterday. Even watching it on television, it's like this is what was at the scene.

I want you to watch when the evidence administrator sits and opens up the bag to show John O'Keefe's shoe.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After you were alerted to that sneaker did you place that sneaker into an evidence bag?

CONNOR KEEFE, MASSACHUSETTS STATE POLICE TROOPER: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you bring that item with you today?

KEEFE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have gloves?

KEEFE: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could you open the bag and show us what's in it?

KEEFE: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With the court's permission can he show the items?

JUDGE BEVERLY CANNONE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

KEEFE: (Opens bag and pulls out sneaker).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: Yeah, it's very sad because that shoe was found flush to the curb right near the car. And they had told the CERT team -- which was the Massachusetts state and rescue ream, the most important team and the commander was there -- "look for a shoe."