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Mike Pence is Interviewed about Eliminating FEMA; Dr. Jeff Gardere is Interviewed about the Texas Tragedy; "The Billionaire Boys Club" on CNN. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired July 10, 2025 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:30:20]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: New this morning, the latest out of Texas. The search continues, but the numbers remain devastating. The death toll from the catastrophic floods has now climbed to at least 120, with more than 160 people still missing.

And right now, FEMA is on the ground to help with the vast recovery effort that is just beginning. But at the same time, there are mounting questions about the federal response so far. Yesterday, Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem reiterated her promise to eliminate the agency.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Federal emergency management should be state and locally led, rather than how it has operated for decades. It has been slow to respond at the federal level. It's even been slower to get the resources to Americans in crisis. And that is why this entire agency needs to be eliminated as it exists today and remade into a responsive agency.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And former Vice President Mike Pence, back with us here in the studio.

Do you think FEMA should be eliminated?

MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Well -- well, first, again, let me say just, our hearts have just been broken by the stories coming out of Texas. A friend of mine in Texas told me yesterday, the hill country may be the most beautiful area of that incredible state. And I was so moved last night by reports of a worship service that took place and images of those children singing on the bus when they were leaving the camp.

BOLDUAN: It gives you chills.

PENCE: It -- it reminded me, in 2017, when that horrific attack at the Sutherland Springs Church. Karen and I flew out and spent time with the families. And we saw the faith, the resilience and the strength of the people of Texas.

And I know they'll get through this, but they know they're not alone. And the American people are -- we mourn with those who mourn and grieve with those who grieve.

But I think the question of FEMA's role is -- is one that probably ought to be debated now going forward. I mean, in -- in my experience, both as a governor and as a vice president --

BOLDUAN: Right.

PENCE: I -- I saw the central role that -- that FEMA played in facilitating state response. I take the secretary's point, who's been a governor herself, that -- that states lead the response. In Indiana, whether it was hurricanes or flooding, or -- or California wildfires, or otherwise, that the states do take the lead. But I think that backstop of expertise and personnel and the ability to be on the ground getting resources directly to the American people to help rebuild their lives is important and should be sustained.

I -- I remember after Hurricane Katrina, there -- I was in Congress at the time. And we remember the -- the tragedy around all of that. Congress then made an enormous investment in modernizing FEMA to the point where now FEMA personnel are able to literally stand in your front yard --

BOLDUAN: Yes.

PENCE: At a -- at your home, devastated by whatever conditions, and get your information and immediately process the federal assistance.

So, yes, it's important we understand the states take the primary role in responding, public safety, rescue, recovery. But I think making sure that the federal government is there, speeding those resources to hurting Americans is -- is important and should be continued.

BOLDUAN: We -- yesterday, Republican Senator Thom Tillis sat down with my colleague Jake to talk about his decision to not seek re-election. And this came after President Trump had said he was going to essentially primary him after his vote against the tax and spending bill.

As part of their conversation, Jake asked the senator what he thinks or says to those who accuse him of being a rhino, which is something you have been called in the past.

Let me play Thom Tillis' response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): And the thing that most of these so-called true conservatives have in common, whether they're elected or party leaders, they've never legislated.

So, they can spare me the amateurish view of how this world works, because they don't have a body of work to point to. I do. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: You have talked about, the way you wrote it, "an existential identity crisis now grips the American right."

[09:35:01]

And I saw that, and I was thinking of our conversation, and I was wondering, when President Trump leaves office, when the Trump era, if you will, ends, do you think that populism, that MAGA element that calls -- accuses you, a conservative, of being a rhino, do you think that ends as well?

PENCE: Well, I think President Trump, as presidents should, has changed aspects of the agenda of the Republican Party. But I don't think he's changed the Republican Party.

You know, I've been traveling around this country over the last four years, speaking with everyday Americans and -- on everything from book tours, to my own campaign for president. And -- and what I've heard again and again is the -- the deep commitment that Republican voters have to a strong national defense, American leadership in the world, fiscal responsibility, pro-growth policies, the right to life and traditional values.

There is a populist move within the party that says we should marginalize the right to life, that we should embrace big government programs, that we should pull back from our commitments in the world. But I think that's a -- that's a minority voice. And -- you know, as I -- as I said in the last segment, I -- seeing the president reaffirm that commitment to American leadership on the -- on the world stage, seeing him sign last week a bill that -- that -- that extended all the Trump-Pence tax cuts, when some of the populist voices were literally talking about raising the top marginal rate, which would have been the largest tax increase in American history, I'm encouraged that --

BOLDUAN: So, you think the Mike Pence lanes -- lane still exists in the Republican Party, even -- I mean it does appear that the Mike Pence lane that the -- the tried and true conservative -- traditional conservative that we know of definitely does not have the -- the loudest, most powerful voice in the party right now.

PENCE: Yes, it's -- well, I wouldn't be presumptuous to call it the Mike Pence lane.

BOLDUAN: I'm calling it that.

PENCE: This is a -- this is a conservative party and has been a conservative party since the days of Barry Goldwater, since the days of Ronald Reagan. And --

BOLDUAN: But also has some tried and true conservatives. That's why they are so upset about that tax and spending bill because it adds 3 trillion to the deficit and debt. Like, you've got --

PENCE: Well -- well, let -- but that's what -- you know, that's an area where I would respectfully disagree with -- with Senator Tillis, I would have had no problem voting for the one big, beautiful bill because it extended all of the Trump-Pence tax cuts. It introduced significant Medicaid reform. It defunded Planned Parenthood for the first time in history.

And all of those things speak to that conservative agenda in the Republican Party. And I -- I think -- I think it's alive and well. I think -- and I think it's important that -- that -- that Republicans offer the American people a choice, not an echo. I mean when I -- when I see the -- the -- the populist right saying that we need to pull back on the world stage, we need to embrace big government programs, price controls, that we're against reforming entitlements, that we don't want to talk about the right to life, that sounds like the agenda of the Democratic Party. And I expect that you're going to continue to see the Republican Party stay on that track of conservatism in the days ahead. And whatever the future holds for me, I'm -- I'm going to be a voice for that.

BOLDUAN: Part of that bill is the Medicaid cuts. In Indiana, the state you and I love so much, 26 percent of people there are on Medicaid. A dozen rural hospitals are at risk of closing. And Thom Tillis says they're -- the real life consequences of the Medicaid cuts are going to be politically devastating, pushing people off of Medicaid. Do you agree? Is that going how --

PENCE: I don't. I don't. And, in fact, in -- in our four years in the administration, we pushed hard at HHS to -- to create work requirements in Medicaid. And now it is in the law and in the federal budget. And I -- I -- and I give the president and his team all the credit in the world for doing that.

When I was governor of Indiana, where we're both from, and proud, I actually introduced health savings accounts into Medicaid. We -- we got the -- the very first waiver ever to -- to create a consumer directed aspects of Medicaid. The key is, we've got to reform these programs. We certainly don't want people who are in this country illegally to be receiving Medicaid benefits. We want those resources to go to people who really need them. And I think that's what Congress did.

BOLDUAN: But on the politically devastating aspect -- but when he says it's -- when he says it's politically devastating, going to be for the -- for Republicans, if you don't agree with him, when you look at the landscape now, what do you think poses the biggest risk to Republicans in the -- in the midterms?

[09:40:01]

PENCE: Well, I think -- I think now, having passed the one big, beautiful bill, which may turn out to be the one big bill they do.

BOLDUAN: Right.

PENCE: Because they did it all together. I think they've got to tell their story. You know, I was the third-ranking Republican during my time in the

Congress. I was a -- not only led the Conservative Caucus, but I was the conference chairman. And I understand that if you can't communicate, you can't govern. And I think it's absolutely essential. And I'd say to every one of my former friends, or former colleagues, and my friends in Congress is, get out across America. Talk about what you did here.

And also, I would also say, I think the time has come for the Congress to push back and reclaim some of their authority on this whole question of tariffs. I really do believe, when you look at the Constitution, you look at the long sweep of history, that that -- tariffs are taxes. Taxes are under the Constitution, Article One, Section Eight, to originate in the Congress. That's been handed off over the last hundred years. So, what -- what the president and I did during our time was -- was not inconsistent with the law. And the Supreme Court will decide about the president's use of -- of the IEEPA statute now.

But I think it's absolutely important that the Congress essentially reclaim, in the -- in a spirit of the separation of powers, its control over setting industrial policy, setting tax policies, setting tariff policy. And I think that, combined with telling the story about how they -- they extended those tax cuts, defunded Planned Parenthood, reformed Medicaid, built up our military is a winning message in 2026 and beyond.

BOLDUAN: And you'll be part of that conversation.

It's very good to see you. Thank you for coming in today.

PENCE: Thank you, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Thank you so much.

We'll be right back.

Thanks.

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[09:46:22]

SIDNER: All right, tomorrow will mark one week since the flash flooding in Texas ravaged dozens of miles, taking at least 120 lives and leaving so far 160 more people missing. Dozens of families are now faced with unimaginable pain and crushing grief. Others left in a state of uncertainty, wondering when and if their loved ones will be found.

We are joined now by a psychologist, Doctor Jeff Gardere.

Thank you so much for being here.

Let's start with this. What are the most important first steps for helping survivors begin to try and process the trauma of losing loved ones in a sudden disaster like this?

DR. JEFF GARDERE, BOARD CERTIFIED CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think it's absolutely important, Sara, that people understand that these kinds of devastating losses, these traumas, it takes time for people to process. And they need that time. They will have persistent symptoms of PTSD, difficulty sleeping, problems with their appetites, crying spells and so on. And so it's really important that they be able to connect with other people in that community who have gone through that same trauma.

But the bottom line is, it's really important that they seek professional support. And they'll be able to get that through different organizations on the ground there, including their faith- based organizations, which I know are very important to them in that area.

SIDNER: Yes. You know, for those who are responding to the tragedy, the volunteers, the first responders who are out in this day after day after day searching for anyone who is alive, sometimes finding bodies of those swept away, what are your concerns for their mental health?

GARDERE: Well, what we often see with these volunteers and these crisis responders is that they don't get a chance to debrief as to what it is that they've seen or experienced. They compartmentalize. They put their emotions away. And so it's really important that in between that volunteer work that they take care of themselves, proper meals, try to get a few hours of sleep and, of course, connect with one another and talk about what that trauma means to them.

And by the way, Sara, that also includes the journalists who are on the ground doing this workday after day, bringing us these stories of tragedy, as well as triumph.

SIDNER: Yes, that's a really good point. And something that has been discussed more and more often among journalists.

How can people seeing these images and hearing these awful stories on the news and in their social media feeds, how do they process their feelings of -- of perhaps helplessness or -- or secondary trauma, something we don't talk a lot about but, you know, people are seeing this every single day, and it's -- and it's filling their minds and making people, you know, sad, afraid. What do they do with that?

GARDERE: Well, I think it's really important that people take in that information in a way that they are able to process it in their own time, first and foremost. Secondly, if it's too much, if the images are too much, if they feel that they are having this secondary trauma of watching people who are losing family members or people who are missing and so on, that they take a break from that.

As well, if they're on social media, they can connect with other people who are having some of those same feelings.

[09:50:04]

So, they shouldn't punish themselves by the continuous flow of trauma information but, most importantly, be able to share what it is that they're feeling with people who are close to them.

SIDNER: Yes, so important to be able to express it and have someone understand what you're going through.

Dr. Jeff Gardere, it is a pleasure. We really needed this today. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

John.

BERMAN: So, a wealthy social club promised fortune and fame, but it unraveled into greed, fraud and murder. The infamous Billionaire Boys Club.

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BERMAN: So, a CNN original series goes inside the shocking story of a social and investment club in the 1980s that, despite its alluring facade, was filled with greed, fraud and even murder.

[09:55:08]

CNN's Elizabeth Wagmeister dives into "The Billionaire Boys Club."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL DOUGLAS, ACTOR: Greed is good.

ELIZABETH WAGMEISTER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice over): What Michael Douglas did for greed on "Wall Street" --

JUDD NELSON, ACTOR, "BILLIONAIRE BOYS CLUB": Lamborghinis, Ferraris.

WAGMEISTER (voice over): Judd Nelson did for greed in Los Angeles in the 1980s.

NELSON: A lot of excess. A lot of exuberance.

WAGMEISTER (voice over): At the height of his Brat Pack fame, Nelson played Joe Hunt in the hit TV miniseries "Billionaire Boys Club," based on the true story of an L.A. kid who scammed his way to a lavish life.

NELSON: He definitely wants to succeed. And he wants it to be shiny. He wants all the glitz and glamour of someone who makes $1 million a year.

WAGMEISTER (voice over): It was an era of '80s excess. Cocaine, cars and the rise of the yuppie in search of it all.

NICOLE LAPIN, HOST, "SCAMS, MONEY, AND MURDER" PODCAST: I think L.A., in the '80s, was all about image and the illusion of power. So, what Joe Hunt did is he capitalized on that access. He was not only running a scam, he was selling a dream.

WAGMEISTER (voice over): It all descended into another staple of a wild Hollywood story, murder, as chronicled in the new CNN docu series "Billionaire Boys Club."

LAPIN: It was American psycho meets Wall Street or Gordon Gekko, and the media just went after it.

WAGMEISTER (voice over): Before the Menendez brothers. Before O.J. The Billionaire Boys Club helped start the era of the celebrity trial.

LAPIN: It played out in the backdrop of Hollywood, covered by Hollywood. It read like a Hollywood movie. It still does. And that's why there's so much fascination decades later.

WAGMEISTER (voice over): It's a story Nelson has lived now for decades.

NELSON: Only in this kind of a profession can you play the guy, and then, 20 years later, play the guy's dad.

WAGMEISTER (voice over): In 2018, Nelson returned to play Hunts' father in a big screen version of "The Billionaire Boys Club." He says the new docu series brings a timeless lesson to a new generation.

NELSON: Hiding in plain sight are many things that are dangerous to us. So, we are vulnerable to people that say good things to us, that compliment us, that like us, or pretend to like us. So, it's a cautionary tale.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WAGMEISTER (on camera): Now, John, I am obsessed with the true crime genre. Everybody is obsessed with true crime. But "Billionaire Boys Club" really started it all. As you heard, this was before the Menendez brothers. This was before O.J. This was long before Anna Delvey. But it's all cut from the same cloth. This was wealthy people in a Ponzi scheme. And as you heard, spoiler alert, it ends in murder.

So, I have to tell you that this CNN original series is gripping. Every single episode gets more intense. And I admit, even though I was born and raised in L.A., this was before my time. Don't hate me. So, I actually didn't know this full story. And I was fascinated by it.

BERMAN: It really is an amazing story. It's sort of the OG, you know, celebrity criminal trial, as you're saying right there.

Elizabeth Wagmeister, thank you so much.

And Judd Nelson, I do have to say, robbed of an Oscar for "The Breakfast Club." One of the most deserving actors of all time.

SIDNER: Literally the first thing out of his mouth.

WAGMEISTER: I agree with you. I agree with you.

BERMAN: All right, be sure to tune in. This new CNN original series, "The Billionaire Boys Club" airs Sunday at 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time.

SIDNER: Thank you all for joining us. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL. "THE SITUATION ROOM," up next.

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