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Hearing in Harvard's Funding Fight; Shan Wu is Interviewed about Harvard's Fight; Rep. Tim Burchett (R-TN) is Interviewed about the Epstein Files; U.S. Air Force Looking Into Near Collision with Delta Jet; Monica Green is Interviewed about the Near Miss Collision. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired July 21, 2025 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): "Crash had nothing to do with Tesla's autopilot technology," blaming it on "a distracted driver." Also, in response to the lawsuit, Tesla denied nearly all of the lawsuit's allegations. Tesla warns owners in manuals that its cars do not drive themselves, and drivers need to be ready to take immediate action.

Elon Musk has long touted the autopilot feature.

ELON MUSK, CEO, TESLA: The future is autonomous.

KAYE: Just this week, as the trial in this case got underway in a Miami courtroom, seating jurors proved challenging given their strong feelings about Musk. According to "The Washington Post," one prospective juror had an issue with Musk's role at DOGE, the Department of Government Efficiency. Another reportedly found it hard to ignore Musk's relationship with President Donald Trump. A third person said she felt Musk and Tesla were ethically compromised, the paper said.

KAYE (voice over): CNN reached out to Tesla for a response to the lawsuit, and jurors' comments, but have not heard back.

Tesla has taken a beating since Musk joined forces with Trump, despite their more recent falling out. Global sales were down a record 13 percent in each of the first two quarters of this year. And the company's financial outlook has worsened. Earlier this year, hundreds of protests took place outside Tesla's showrooms across the country. In some cases, Tesla vehicles were set on fire.

KAYE: A judgment against Tesla in this case could be a problem for the company, since not only is the company trying to convince people that its self-driving technology is safe, but it's also planning this big, public rollout of hundreds of thousands of Tesla Robotaxis across the U.S. by the end of next year. Tesla is promising those Robotaxis will be powered by a much stronger self-driving technology. They won't have anyone behind the wheel.

Randi Kaye, CNN, West Palm Beach, Florida.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, it is Harvard versus Trump. Back in court and facing off over billions of dollars in frozen federal funds, free speech and what the government can and can't do.

Meanwhile, a regional jet's close call with a B-52 bomber. A pilot forced to swerve to avoid the military aircraft he said was coming right at him. We're going to talk with one of the passengers who was on board that flight.

Plus, A.I. coming for the corner office. Just how big is the threat of artificial intelligence to white collar jobs?

I'm Omar Jimenez, with Kate Bolduan. John and Sara are out. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: This hour, a courtroom clash is set to get underway in President Trump's battle with one of the nation's top universities. A federal judge will hear oral arguments in Harvard University's lawsuit against the Trump administration. Now, Harvard filed that case after the administration froze more than $2 billion in federal funds for the school, and the university says that it has had a huge impact, impacting more than 950 ongoing research projects. And it's suing to have those funds restored.

The Trump administration is refusing to release the money until Harvard makes sweeping policy changes on DE&I, admissions practices and its handling of student protests. It claims the school has not done enough to address anti-Semitism on campus after protests erupted over the war in Gaza.

This fight between Harvard and President Trump really becoming the centerpiece, the most serious in the administration's broader battle against the nation's higher education institutions.

CNN's Gloria Pazmino is tracking this one for us.

Gloria, what is expected to happen today in court?

GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kate. And there's certainly a lot of symbolism going into the fight, right, the Trump administration and everything that Harvard sort of signifies and stands for in our society, the highest, the most expensive American university, the oldest American University, and also one of the richest.

Now, this is going to be the first time that we are hearing from Department of Justice attorneys, as well as lawyers for Harvard University, making oral arguments, arguing that the Trump administration's move to freeze their funding is unconstitutional. As you said, more than 900 research projects are at risk over these funds that have taken away about $2 billion in grants. Many of these research projects look into medical research, cancer. They also look into biochemical threats. All of that has come to a halt, according to faculty members and alumni, as the university tries to resolve this fight. Now, Harvard argues that the administration is violating the law when

it comes to funding -- the funding freeze. They also say that this is a violation of their first amendment and their academic freedom, and they say that the funding freeze has no connection between anti- Semitism and stopping this federal -- federal, medical and scientific research.

[09:05:11]

Now, we are expecting to hear from lawyers in the next hour or so. The faculty members I've been speaking with believe that they are on solid legal ground going into this hearing, and they have asked the judge to make an expedited decision. They say that by September they want to have a final call on this, considering that is when there is a deadline to submit much of the paperwork that would close out the grant funding.

Here's what the White House had to say. We've heard the president, over the last few weeks, suggest that he believes Harvard will want to settle. A spokesperson for the White House said that they believe that "through good-faith conversations and negotiations, a good deal is more than possible."

So, hopefully we will learn a lot more in the next several hours. But certainly Harvard closely watching this as well as many other top universities in the country.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Gloria, thank you so much for keeping an eye on this one for us. It all is about to get underway.

Omar.

JIMENEZ: Let's talk a little bit more about this with Shan Wu, defense attorney and former federal prosecutor.

So, Shan, when you go into a hearing like this, what are we expecting? I mean are we likely to see any indication of how the judge is leaning based off of just this hearing?

SHAN WU, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, I very much think so.

A little bit of a technical issue. They're in a posture where they're arguing. It's not a trial yet. It's before trial and something called a motion for summary judgment. So, the legal standard for that is actually very tricky. It means that for the judge to rule as a matter of law that somebody's going to win, they got to first find there's no real material facts in dispute. So, obviously, there's going to be a lot of maneuvering as to say, you know, what is a material fact? Is it in dispute or not?

But certainly from the judge's questions, you're going to get a very strong sense of what the judge thinks of the legal arguments the government's making versus what Harvard's making. JIMENEZ: And, you know, ahead of today's hearing, the White House has

said they believe a good deal is more than possible. And President Trump has suggested that Harvard will want to settle. Do you think that's likely, based on where we are at this point, or is this headed for -- for a longer legal fight?

WU: Almost all of these sorts of civil disputes tend to settle because neither party wants to go through the time and expense of having to take it further into the discovery phase, further into the trial phase.

Having said that, it really depends on what the parties want. This is not really about money damages, although there's a lot of money at stake. It could be quite easy to settle if Harvard gives the Trump administration some sort of saving face thing, like, we're going to look more into the alleged discrimination against Jewish students, for example. The White House can declare a victory, kind of back off.

If, however, the White House is really adamant and doesn't -- doesn't like the concessions, then they're going to say, look, we want this amount of control over who you hire, what your faculty can say. Harvard's already indicated they're not going to go with that. And then we're headed for a longer dispute.

I do think there is a pretty good shot for Harvard that the judge might look at what the government has put forth so far and say, look, there just isn't any -- there's no -- nothing here. You haven't given any examples of the actual discrimination. You're just making these allegations. In that sense, there is no factual dispute here and just a matter of the law then and, government, you're going to lose on that. So, there is a possibility that Harvard could win here.

JIMENEZ: All right, a lot of universities watching this as well.

Shan Wu, appreciate the perspective, as always.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: This morning, the bipartisan calls are growing for more transparency around the Jeffrey Epstein case. And there is now a new push for Ghislaine Maxwell, the longtime Epstein associate who was convicted of child sex trafficking offenses related to the investigation, that she testify before Congress about what she knows. A former attorney for Jeffrey Epstein, Alan Dershowitz, says just yesterday that he believes Maxwell would be willing to testify before Congress if a deal could be reached.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, JEFFREY EPSTEIN'S FORMER ATTORNEY: She knows everything. She is the Rosetta Stone. She knows everything. She arranged every single trip with everybody. She knows everything. And if she were just given use immunity, she could be compelled to testify. I'm told that she actually would be willing to testify. And there'd be no reason for her to withhold any information.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: If given use immunity.

Now, after that, a source close to Maxwell told CNN that she has not had any discussions about testifying before Congress and also saying, quote, "while Dershowitz is brilliant, he does not represent Ms. Maxwell and has had no contact with her."

[09:10:01]

Joining me right now is Republican Congressman Tim Burchett of Tennessee. He's signed on to that big effort right now in the House to try to force a vote to release all of the Epstein files.

Congressman, thanks for coming in.

REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): Thank you.

BOLDUAN: This person close to Ghislaine Maxwell seems to be batting down the idea of her coming before Congress, but do you like the idea of offering her some sort of immunity to get her to come before Congress to testify while she's serving prison time?

BURCHETT: Yes, ma'am. You may not know this, but I wrote a letter last week to Chairman Comer early last week to, in fact, do that. I've been informed, though, that she is in the process of an appeal and that -- that that would make it a little difficult for her to come in because it might skew her appeal. But I think once her appeal is over, I think that would be the right course. And that's why I -- I just -- I -- I didn't get a bunch of people to sign it. I'm not real big on letters, but I understand the process in D.C. And that's why I've encouraged Chairman Comer to, in fact, subpoena her if need be, because I believe she is the gatekeeper.

And if we have to do it in a closed-door session, then I say, let's do it. But I think we need to get her in -- in front of the members and ask her what she knows.

BOLDUAN: Let -- and let us see, you know, what -- what that entails and what, you know, and the long kind of negotiation that that would take, of course.

BURCHETT: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Yesterday you called the move to have the grand jury transcripts released. You called it a good start because, for background, as everyone should -- will likely know at this point, what the bill is asking for is much more than the grand jury transcripts.

BURCHETT: Yes, ma'am.

BOLDUAN: And the bar that the president has set earlier, I would say the last week, when saying that it was up to Pam Bondi, was the way he put it is, whatever she thinks is credible, she should release.

BURCHETT: Yes, ma'am.

BOLDUAN: If this comes down to kind of the definition of credible here, what is that going to mean to you?

BURCHETT: Well, I'm not a lawyer, obviously, but my biggest fear on all this is that, first of all, we need to protect the innocent children. Apparently there's close to a thousand people that this dirt bag offended or had a part in offending. And I assume the devil is taking care of him right now. But that -- I do not want to release those children's names and innocent people. If you flew on his plane, daggum it, it doesn't mean you're a pedophile. That's what folks do in -- that run in -- in these very wealthy circles. I know some people and they -- that fly on other people's planes when their plane is down and somebody will say, hey, I've got a -- I've got an empty seat, we're going, do you need -- you want to ride with us instead of waiting on your repairs on your plane? They say, sure. And then they get on it and they're on the flight logs. That doesn't necessarily mean they're a pedophile.

And so, I would hope there's some sort of filter or way we could screen that. And I don't know what that is. Again, I'm not an attorney. I would trust -- I would hope that we could put somebody in charge of that, that could do that. And Ms. Bondi is capable of doing that. I hope she does.

But there again, I don't think we're ever going to get the information that we wanted. You know, four -- we went four years under the Biden administration and we never got a peep out of -- out of any Democrats. Dick Durbin stopped, effectively, Senator Marsha Blackburn from getting all that information. And there was never anything in the media. Now he's coming out riding out on a white horse like he's doing something, when, in fact, that is not.

And I -- and this is all just political, ma'am.

BOLDUAN: Well --

BURCHETT: Both sides pointing fingers. I just want to get to the guilty.

BOLDUAN: And -- and there's definitely a lot of finger pointing.

I actually asked Dick Durbin last week about the back and forth that had gone on when he was chairman of the committee, of the Judiciary, that Marsha Blackburn, your -- your -- your state senator, had been pushing for flight logs. And he responded to that, saying, that's really not how this played out.

Let me play this for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): No, nothing changed. I said to Senator Blackburn, I'll be happy to subpoena these documents. Give me a written list of what you're searching for and I'll -- I'll proceed and go forward. She never came up with that list because when you're in the midst of a conspiracy theory, it's a lot easier to make charges than to back them up with anything specific. I've never been reluctant. The argument that Biden was concealing something during those four years was just plain wrong and false.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Just looking at this going forward from this point, Congressman, do --

BURCHETT: Yes. Well, ma'am --

BOLDUAN: Go ahead.

BURCHETT: He -- I -- I was going to -- he's not telling the truth, ma'am. Go back and watch the tapes. He was an obstructionist. He acted like they -- he didn't know what she was talking about. That is totally in error. And -- and I wish you all would go back and correct that because that is clearly him -- him going fast with the rules there. She diligently asked for those things, and he completely mansplained her the whole time. And no one paid any attention to it. And now they are. I just don't think he's telling the truth, ma'am.

BOLDUAN: Going forward on this, you had -- so, you had said last week that you do not trust DOJ and you did -- had some harsh words for Pam Bondi as well.

[09:15:08]

Do you trust Pam Bondi to be the one to make the call on what is credible, what is right, what is safe, what should be put out there?

BURCHETT: Well, I have a saying, it's not how you start, it's how you finish. If she finishes strong, then I would trust her. In the past, I didn't think that things that she had done were -- were -- I won't say appropriate. I just don't think they were as efficient as they could. The white binders that they gave out was pretty much information everybody already had. I think she took some bad advice on that. She might not have even known. She might not have followed it, say, like you and I would, or had been.

So -- and remember, she was -- the president brought her in pretty quick after -- after the failed attempt of -- of putting somebody else in there. And -- and they confirmed her very fast. So, I suspect the learning curve was very steep.

So, yes, I'm disappointed in her. I've been disappointed in her. But it's -- it's -- that's -- that's the process. And, generally, you don't speak out against somebody in your own party. But generally I haven't really followed those rules. I don't -- if I'm unhappy with somebody, I just say it. I'm not much on -- I'm -- I'm very much on transparency, ma'am.

BOLDUAN: Let us see where this goes and the growing movement on the bill that you've signed onto as well.

Congressman, thanks for your time this morning. Omar.

JIMENEZ: All right, new details just in on the terrifying close call between a passenger jet and a B-52 bomber. We'll tell you what the U.S. Air Force is saying about it this morning.

Plus, we are midway through President Trump's first year of his second term. He's touting wins, but new polls might be flashing some warning signs. We'll explain.

And chaos after a car plowed into a nightclub crowd, injuring dozens of people. The driver, pulled out of the car, then beaten and shot. This morning, that shooter, still on the run. Details ahead.

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[09:21:00]

JIMENEZ: All right, new details this morning on really a scary midair close call. We're now learning a B-52 bomber was doing a flyover at the North Dakota State Fair when the pilot of a Delta regional jet says he was forced to make an aggressive maneuver to avoid colliding with it. The SkyWest flight had taken off from Minneapolis and was preparing to land in Minot, North Dakota, when it happened.

CNN's Brian Todd joins us now.

So, Brian, you've got some new information from the U.S. Air Force. What are we hearing?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Omar. The U.S. Air Force now confirming to CNN that a B-52 bomber was performing a flyover of the North Dakota State Fair on Friday evening when this incident occurred, when this Delta connection regional jet, operated by SkyWest Airlines, was landing in Minot, North Dakota.

Here is a statement from an Air Force spokesperson to -- issued to CNN just a short time ago. Quote, "we are aware of the recent reporting regarding commercial and Air Force aircraft operating in airspace around Minot International Airport. We are currently looking into the matter. We can confirm that a B-52 aircraft assigned to Minot Air Force Base conducted a flyover of the North Dakota State Fair on Friday evening."

Now, that flyover was advertised for 7:40 p.m. local time. And further setting the scene for everyone now, this was just an extraordinary sequence of events with this apparent close call on Friday night. This was Friday, July 18th. As we mentioned, this was SkyWest Flight 3788. It was operating as a Delta connection flight from Minneapolis to Minot, North Dakota. The incident happened as this aircraft approached Minot, as the -- as the commercial plane approached Minot, which is also home, as we have mentioned now, to an Air Force base with radar capabilities.

Now, the pilot said that he had to make a hard u-turn to avoid colliding with a B-52 bomber. And that is according to audio from the incident. Audio that was recorded by a passenger from the pilot after the incident occurred.

The pilot told passengers that the tower asked him to report six miles from the airport. And after being in communication with the control tower, the pilot said he turned right, but then he saw the military aircraft on the right-hand side. So, the Air Force -- air traffic controller told him to turn left. He said he could tell by the speed of the other aircraft that it was a military plane. And after the incident, after they safely landed at Minot, we should say they safely landed after that incident, the passenger recorded audio of the pilot apologizing to the -- to the passengers.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SKYWEST FLIGHT 3788 PILOT: Sorry about the aggressive maneuver. It caught me by surprise. This is not -- not normal at all. I don't know why they didn't give us a heads up, because the Air Force base does have radar and nobody said, hey, there's also a B-52 in the pattern. But, I -- I -- long story short, it was not -- not fun. But I do apologize for it. And -- and thank you for understanding.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TODD: Some critical things we do not know at this point. We do not know how close these two aircraft actually got. We do not know whether they were on a collision course or not at that -- at that moment. And we also do not know -- we have no clear indication of what air traffic control said to the -- this pilot or possibly the other pilot.

SkyWest has issued a statement saying that the plane landed safely at Minot after being cleared to -- for approach by the tower, but then had to perform a go around when another aircraft became visible in their flight path.

Omar.

JIMENEZ: Not normal and not fun as we heard from the pilot, but thankfully everyone, OK.

Brian Todd, appreciate the reporting, as always.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely.

And joining us right now is that passenger who was on the flight and recorded the pilot explaining it all, Monica Green.

Monica, thank you very much for waking up early to walk us through this a little bit more.

MONICA GREEN, PASSENGER ON FLIGHT THAT HAD CLOSE CALL WITH B-52 BOMBER: Yes.

BOLDUAN: I mean, really, kind of a very -- GREEN: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Really remarkable.

Walk us through this one more time. This happened as your flight was getting ready to land. What did it feel like?

[09:25:03]

GREEN: It was just -- it felt like a normal go around at first when there's too many airplanes pulling up to the gate and they have to kind of just stall. But it was such a hard u-turn to where we were going kind of straight, and then went pretty sideways. I'd be looking out the window and just see straight grass. I wouldn't be seeing the horizon anymore because we were so sideways.

BOLDUAN: Did -- I mean, I can imagine, were there like audible gasps from people? Like, how were people reacting in that moment as you're all kind of just dealing with it?

GREEN: It was very quiet. It was -- it was really eerie. I don't know if it's just because I was towards the front of the plane. I didn't really hear a lot of what was going on behind me. But people were kind of looking around a little bit. It's just -- it's -- it was a small plane. So, any kind of maneuver on those is really aggressive, kind of bumpy turbulence is really aggressive in those. So, I fly a lot. And it didn't seem that out of the norm to me, but it did seem really aggressive. I was texting my husband, like, wow, that was a really crazy turn that we just took and we're -- we're kind of just hovering. I don't know what's going on.

BOLDUAN: Yes, because I was going to ask you, you had -- you had said that you fly quite a lot for work. Is it -- is there something -- do you compare it to something similar to what you experienced before?

GREEN: I -- yes, I had a situation in Dallas. I -- I was coming home for a few days and as we were about to -- literally about to touch the tarmac, we were so close, we just shot right back up into the air, almost just straight up. And the pilot said something along the lines of, we were avoiding another plane that was also landing at the same time, that it was too congested. And he said it very casually. And I was explaining that to my husband and one of my friends and I guess I -- I don't want to say got brushed off, but it wasn't taken that seriously. I'm like, that's -- that's a serious issue, that we were so close to landing. It was just moments before landing to just shoot back up in the air like that so aggressively.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

GREEN: And it wasn't a big deal. So, that's why, when this happened, I took out my phone when he decided to explain it to everybody because I wanted to be able to explain it to other people, and I knew I wouldn't be able to remember it in such detail as -- as he would say it.

BOLDUAN: And thank goodness you did. And that's kind of an element of why this is so remarkable. Thank God everything is OK. And, yes, there is an investigation that will happen into why it did happen. But the fact, the candor of the pilot, how -- I mean, he was so open with, like, this is not normal.

GREEN: Yes.

BOLDUAN: It was not fun. I am very sorry. And kind of what -- what you thought of that.

GREEN: I -- I love the transparency, to be honest. I hate when there's delays or -- or issues going on and they're just like, oh, technical issue or mechanical issue. They don't really tell you what's going on and it makes people just more aware of the risks of flying and what's actually going on.

As a consumer, I don't book a flight and think, oh, I'm flying into an airport that doesn't have radar. That's something that I would never register that, you know, I would think all airports have radar, and that's another risk that I feel like people have the right to know about if they are choosing to travel a lot because it's scary. I mean, anytime you get in an airplane, it's a risk. And especially for someone like me that travels so much, every -- I think about it every time I get in a plane, that it's a risk that something could go wrong. And I do appreciate that he was so transparent about it and let us know. It just -- it made me feel almost safer in a way. It was kind of weird.

BOLDUAN: No. I mean you could definitely sense the relief because at the -- at the tail end of your video, you can hear the applause as you were all safely on the ground and hearing that from the pilot.

GREEN: Oh, yes. Yes.

BOLDUAN: Well, Monica, it's very nice to meet you. And thankfully under these circumstances, of course. So, thank you so much.

GREEN: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Omar.

JIMENEZ: An appropriate time to applaud on a plane. Kate, really appreciate it.

Six months into his second term, President Trump testing the limits of his presidential power, but now polling is showing there are many Americans that don't approve of some of his moves. We'll explain, coming up.

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