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DOJ Says It has Reached Out to Ghislaine Maxwell for a Meeting; Epstein Accuser Says She Met Donald Trump in Epstein's Office; Interview with Rep. Raja Krishnamoorthi (D-IL): Johnson Stalls Bipartisan Push in House for Epstein Files Vote and Republican Redistricting Push in Texas; Colbert Says The Gloves Would be Off as Show Winds Down. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired July 22, 2025 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

MISTY MARRIS, DEFENSE AND TRIAL ATTORNEY: ... the samples, how were they transferred from one facility to the next and also saying, well, you can't say how it got in her body and trying to raise reasonable doubt on that front.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: A unique thing with this trial and the county where this trial is taking place is something I kept rereading it because I will admit this is the first time I've heard something about this, where the jurors are actually allowed to ask questions to witnesses, they write them down, the judge approves them, says that they're, you know, good to go, then they can be read anonymously to the witnesses. And they are doing that here. How does that impact the just the dynamic of this trial?

MARRIS: This is a really unusual role, not unprecedented. There's other counties that have this rule. There's three states that have it in various areas, but it allows the jury to really be engaged.

I love it as a trial lawyer watching the case, because as we know, when the jury gets involved in is asking questions that can give you an idea about what types of information they're paying attention to testimony, what types of questions they have. Prosecutors, sometimes from a defense perspective, you don't love it because it may fill in gaps prosecutors would have not hit.

So there's a lot of criticism over these rules as well.

BOLDUAN: They've become an absolutely active participant in the trial. It's fascinating. It's great to see you, Misty.

MARRIS: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you so much.

A new hour of CNN NEWS CENTRAL starts right now.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, House Republicans waking up in a huge bind over Jeffrey Epstein. They don't want to vote against releasing Jeffrey Epstein files, but they also don't want to cross the president. How this could shut down business in the House for the week or even longer.

While you were sleeping, Stephen Colbert speaks out on the president for the first time since his show was canceled. His new message rhymes with go F yourself. Actually, it was exactly that.

In a daring rescue at a zoo after a ride stalls with dozens of people, leaving them stranded for hours.

Sara is out. I'm John Berman with Kate Bolduan. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

BOLDUAN: This morning, the White House is eager to move on from all things Jeffrey Epstein. Look no further than the president's social media. But in a rare note or moment of defiance and division among Republicans in the Trump era, even some of the president's most hardcore supporters say they are not ready to move on from this and turn the page.

There are growing calls from within the Republican Party for congressional hearings, for new witness testimony, and even a push to force a vote on the matter, meaning get more material released. Eleven House Republicans have now signaled support for this bipartisan measure, this bill calling for the release of any and all files related to the Epstein investigation, the late notorious sex offender.

But Johnson, the House speaker, after briefly appearing to back the release of get it all out there -- that was just last week. He is now shutting down the chance of a vote on the matter before the August recess that's supposed to kick off later this week, which means the earliest anything could happen if Mike Johnson gets his way on this would be September. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), HOUSE SPEAKER: There is no daylight between the House Republicans, the House and the president on maximum transparency. He has said that he wants all the credible files related to Epstein to be released. He's asked the attorney general to request the grand jury files of the court.

All of that is in process right now. My belief is we need the administration to have the space to do what it is doing. And if further congressional action is necessary or appropriate, then we'll look at that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: So President Trump, he has really gone after some of his most ardent supporters who are calling for the release of the Epstein files, calling them weaklings. And the White House, while pushing the idea of supporting transparency, really has punted the decision to Attorney General Pam Bondi and the Justice Department. And there's a real focus on -- and there's -- and there's a real focus on what that means from here.

CNN's Alayna Treene is at the White House this morning. There's some there's some new information, a new statement coming out from the Justice Department on all of this. What are you learning?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, I mean, this is just came in moments ago. Kate, from a statement from Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche. I want to read for you what it said, because it seems like this pressure campaign on the White House is working.

So Blanche said, quote, At the direction of Attorney General Bondi, I have communicated with counsel for Ms. Maxwell -- he's referring to Ghislaine Maxwell, of course, one of Jeffrey Epstein's associates who has been convicted on some of those crimes -- to determine whether she would be willing to speak with prosecutors from the department. I anticipate meeting with Ms. Maxwell in the coming days.

[08:05:04]

Now, part of that statement as well. We had heard from Blanch saying that if she has information about anyone who has committed crimes against victims, he said the FBI and the DOJ will hear what she has to say.

This is a new development, Kate. And this is exactly what we've been now hearing from not just, you know, Democrats and the broader American public, from the president's fiercest supporters.

You had that graphic of some of the people who are pushing for and supporting that discharge position in the House to try and force a floor vote on this. I mean, this has now become an untenable position for the White House, this idea and really their strategy for the last couple of weeks now of trying to move on from this subject. We have now seen the pressure really ratcheted up here.

And now we are hearing from the Justice Department that they are planning to meet with Ghislaine Maxwell and see if they can get more information on what she knows, and specifically, as Blanche had said, about anyone who had also committed crimes against victims.

I think, of course, a key question is, will this be enough? Because we have now heard from several different of the president's supporters, people like Steve Bannon, like Laura Loomer, but then also many of his supporters on Capitol Hill, Marjorie Taylor Greene, one of them saying you need to publish this, there needs to be more transparency.

And what I found really interesting about, you know, I was watching some of what our colleague Manu Raju, he was catching up with Republicans on Capitol Hill. Many of them were saying, Greene, but also Senator Josh Hawley was another example, saying that they are getting calls, Kate, from their constituents. Greene said that this is what she's been getting calls about more than anything else, is to push for more transparency here.

And you mentioned this, the president so far has, again, really been trying to move on from this. He's been trying to change the subject. He's been telling his supporters, you know, don't be weaklings, we need to move on from this. But now it looks like the Justice Department is moving forward and trying to get more information on this beyond what we saw the president do last week, which was ask the attorney general, Pam Bondi, to unseal some of the grand jury testimony and transcripts from the Epstein case. And we had heard then from many legal experts and others that that wouldn't be enough. We'll see if this quenches the thirst of many of his supporters, this call to interview Ghislaine Maxwell.

BOLDUAN: Yes, I mean, another day and now another development coming from the Justice Department and what they're going to be doing. Something to watch, that's for sure. Alayna, thank you so much -- John.

BERMAN: Yes, we're going to come back to that in just a second, because that is brand new. The Justice Department saying they're going to reach out to Ghislaine Maxwell there. Back to that in just a moment.

In the meantime, CNN hearing from a Jeffrey Epstein accuser. Maria Farmer worked with Epstein in the 90s and says she was sexually assaulted by him and Ghislaine Maxwell. She also says she met Donald Trump in Epstein's office in the 90s when she was about 25 years old.

She does not accuse Trump of any wrongdoing but listen to what she has to say.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARIA FARMER, EPSTEIN ACCUSER: Epstein walked out from the offices on this side. Trump's standing here. I'm here. And he walks out of his office and he goes, oh, no, no, no. He was laughing at me. And he goes, she's not here for you.

Follow me. Right. And he escorts him into this other room.

And I always wondered, who was she in there? It wasn't like he was aggressive after that, but he made a really vulgar comment following. And I don't know if it was like, you know, like locker room talk in the 90s, the way men were. But he made a joke to Epstein. Oh, I thought she was 16.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Maria, when we reached out to the White House for a comment, they responded. And I'll just read for you what they said.

FARMER: OK.

BURNETT Quote, the president was never in Epstein's office, and in fact, the president kicked him out of his club for being a creep.

They then say that Trump, you know, they're clear there. They say he was never in Epstein's office, which, of course, from the original incident that you're talking about, is where this occurred, according to your recollection --

FARMER: Yes. BURNETT: -- at the Helmsley building in New York.

FARMER: He was absolutely in the offices.

BURNETT: So what do you say when they give a response like this?

FARMER: He's lying, yes. I say that they're being disrespectful to the fact that I have given up my entire life for this case just to have it investigated.

And I'm really sorry for him that he's caught. But, you know, I don't know what to say to that. He's lying. I don't appreciate it. He was absolutely at the offices and it was nine o'clock at night. I thought it was inappropriate.

But also they were best friends at the time.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: Again, we should note, she does not accuse Donald Trump of any wrongdoing. With us now is Jeremy Saland, former Manhattan prosecutor and counselor. Very good to see you.

Again, she does not accuse Donald Trump of any wrongdoing, but she has a story to tell about Donald Trump. One which he denies.

[08:10:00]

But I guess my question is, is this the type of story that could be in the investigative -- investigatory materials that Pam Bondi controls and could release in theory?

JEREMY SALAND, FORMER MANHATTAN PROSECUTOR: Absolutely. Let's let's separate this facade and farce of releasing grand jury minutes and asking for a judge to say, can it be released? Which is a whole process which may be denied and distinct from a file, for lack of a better term, that was not in the grand jury where witnesses may have spoken with prosecutors and law enforcement where they may be related to search warrants materials that were recovered. Like this proposed or potential client list and release that -- you can release that.

Don't be distracted by grand jury. Be distracted by or look to what the Department of Justice may have in these files and can release on their own.

BERMAN: And again, we don't know for sure, but it could be that it's this type of story that's in there that does not, you know, doesn't incriminate the president, but it talks about the president.

SALAND: Right. Absolutely. Listen, like anyone else, anyone who would be accused or alleged would be innocent until if and when proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. But if people want information that the president said he was going to release and share, stop being distracted by grand jury. Go to the file.

BERMAN: All right, this new piece of information that came out just as we were coming on air, Jeremy, that the Justice Department says it may reach out to speak with Ghislaine Maxwell, who's in prison. I mean, she's serving time for her connection to Jeffrey Epstein and sex trafficking.

What would the nature of that meeting be? How unusual is that? What's the kind of thing they get from that?

SALAND: You had the most salacious case that was ongoing at a time before he passed or even after he passed, meaning Epstein. And they had an opportunity to speak with Maxwell.

No, I'm not in that room. I don't know if Maxwell said, I don't want to speak with you. I'm going full board. I'm defending myself.

But if you're going to ask someone to cooperate and share information pertinent to a long term investigation that it's such an impact on the nation or at least these underage people who are trafficked. Well, then you speak to that person at the time.

They help themselves potentially as a cooperator, get a better deal or a better resolution. But that didn't happen.

Why now? Is this just mouthing the words? And what is her incentive now? Unless she's getting something in return.

BERMAN: Yes, if you were an attorney for Ghislaine Maxwell and you heard the Justice Department wants to come speak to you, what would you say?

SALAND: At this point? Show me -- show me the money for lack of a better term. Show me the money. Get me my out. Give me an opportunity.

BERMAN: All right, we'll see what happens and what comes from this. Counselor Jeremy Saland it's great to see you.

SALAND: OK.

BERMAN: Thank you very much -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right and joining us right now is Democratic Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi from Illinois. He's also running for U.S. Senate right now as Senator Dick Durbin is retiring. Congressman, it's good to see you. Thank you for coming in.

REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D-IL), OVERSIGHT AND REFORM COMMITTEE: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: One of the things that is swirling on Capitol Hill is exactly what John and Jeremy were just talking about.

What is going to happen with the Jeffrey Epstein files and the fact that attention and focus on it and more transparency around it is not going away. The last time that you were on the show, you kind of pushed off the focus on the Epstein files. That was earlier this month, saying that that is not what your constituents are focused on right now. Do you think they are now?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: I think somewhat. I think they're still focused on economic issues, the chaos right now that bedevils them in so many ways. I think here on Capitol Hill, I think Democrats and a lot of Republicans are just calling for disclosure of these files so we can kind of put this issue behind us.

Unfortunately, there's tremendous infighting among Republicans on this particular issue. I think it only reinforces with voters that, unfortunately, these Republicans are not focused on the issue of the tariff chaos that's bedeviling small businesses or the fact that things remain unaffordable for them, as the recent inflation figures indicate.

BOLDUAN: Republican lawmakers are saying that they are getting calls into their offices now from constituents about the Epstein investigation and the files. Are you?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Some. Maybe not as many as into certain Republican offices. But overwhelmingly, people say, just disclose the files.

What's in the files? Disclose them. Show us, you know, full transparency as to this issue.

As you can tell, a lot of Republicans here agree with that. And it's basically locking up the legislative process because there are so many people who oppose disclosing those files.

Again, it's really disconnected to the economic reality that a lot of my constituents are complaining about. So it just frustrates them more.

BOLDUAN: What the disclosure, if you will, could come down to is who decides what is credible, because that is what the president has now put as basically the marker of the Attorney General Pam Bondi. If she deems their credible information to be released, then she should release all credible information.

[08:15:00]

Do you trust the Attorney General Pam Bondi to be that decider, that last final word on what is credible to be released or not?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: No. I think she should just disclose all the files and just allow people to --

BOLDUAN: And do you think there should be congressional hearings like we're now hearing louder calls for from Capitol Hill, like from Senator Josh Hawley?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: I think that there should be hearings to the extent that they're resisting release of these files. I think that there's just not enough transparency as to many of the things that are happening with the Trump administration right now, and this is among them, and I think this will come up in the Oversight Committee as well.

BOLDUAN: That definitely could be one committee where that will come up, and you can be sure if you ever watch the Oversight Committee that you're on, it will be spicy. Maybe that's the right word for it.

I want to ask you a little bit about the midterms, if I can, because I had the chair of the DCCC, the House Democrats' campaign arm, on yesterday, and she said that when it comes to redrawing of congressional maps, that's really been forced back into the spotlight.

If Texas is going to do what it's going about doing right now, rewriting congressional maps to try to win more Republican seats, then Democratic-led states should do the same, and Illinois is one state that has been talked about since Democrats controlled the state ledge and the governorship is doing this. Do you want to see Illinois rewrite congressional maps to try and benefit Democrats more?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Well, I think we just went through that exercise in Illinois. You know, I think that right now what we're seeing is kind of a situation in Texas where they recognize that they're basically going to lose the majority in the House, in part because of the fact that the Big, Beautiful Bill, which I call the large, lousy law, is going to hurt so many of their constituents. And in addition, you know, people just feel the chaos of the economy is hurting them personally.

For the first time, Kate, I'm talking to people on the phone who are being laid off. These are people solidly in the middle class who are being laid off because of this chaos. And so I think that they recognize that this puts them in a lot of political peril, and that's why they're doing what they're doing in Texas.

BOLDUAN: But you don't think Illinois is the place for Democrats to, to use the phrase that we heard from Beto O'Rourke, fight fire with fire?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: I'm not hearing that Illinois is necessarily going to go through this process again. You know, as it is, I think that Illinois has a lot of good Democrats representing much of the state. But I think that, again, we're going to take back the majority fair and square in the 2026 midterms.

BOLDUAN: It's good to have you on, Congressman. Thank you for your time -- John.

BERMAN: Florida police now investigating video that shows police punching a man in the head during a traffic stop. Officials say no laws were broken.

A top FEMA official, the head of the urban search and rescue branch, stepping down, citing the response to the devastating floods in Texas as his reason.

And questions this morning, an HHS report finds that organs were taken from patients who were showing signs of life.

[08:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: While you were sleeping Stephen Colbert unplugged now that he has found out he will be unemployed when the late show was pulled off the air next year. This was his first real chance to respond to President Trump who celebrated the move from CBS. Some would say that CBS was caving to pressure from the president with the cancellation of the show.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN COLBET, HOST, THE LATE SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT: On Friday Donald Trump posted, I absolutely love that Colbert got fired. His talent was even less than his ratings.

How dare you, sir? Would an untalented man be able to compose the following satirical witticism? Go f*** yourself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Joining us now, editor-at-large of the LateNighter website and author of the book The War for Late Night, our friend Bill Carter. Bill, great to see you. I don't think anyone knows more who has thought harder about late night television in the last 30 years than you.

So what did you think about this moment last night with Stephen Colbert? What was it that he was doing?

BILL CARTER, EDITOR AT LARGE, LATENIGHTER: Well, I think he was openly expressing his defiance. You know, he's basically accepting CBS's take on this that there was a financial reason. At least he did in his initial comments.

But now I think he is, along with a lot of other people, questioning whether the company was agreeing to this because of the merger that Paramount is about to do with Skydance. And he just now, I feel like he's feeling free. He can say what he wants.

You know, he brought all his friends along last night, John. He had a huge backing from the comedy community, especially the late-night community in his audience.

BERMAN: I mean, we saw, you know, Seth Meyers there. You know, Adam Sandler was there. All kinds of people were in the crowd.

There's no question that the community --

CARTER: Anderson Cooper was there, John. Anderson Cooper was there, too.

BERMAN: It doesn't get bigger than that.

CARTER: Yes.

BERMAN: And I want to play -- I want to play a little bit more of what we heard from Stephen Colbert last night. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[08:25:00]

COLBERT: Over the weekend, it sunk in that they're killing off our show. But they made one mistake. They left me alive.

I can finally speak unvarnished truth to power and say what I really think about Donald Trump, starting right now.

(CHEERING)

I don't care for him.

(APPLAUSE)

Doesn't seem to have, like, the skill set. Doesn't have the skill set to be president. You know, just not a good fit. That's all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So Bill, this was, like, night one. And this is supposed to go on until May.

CARTER: Yes.

BERMAN: I mean, how is that going to play out?

CARTER: Well, I think we have a sense it's going to play out in this very in-your-face way. Well, let's face it. Colbert has been extremely critical of Trump.

He has been extremely critical of Trump. To say he's going to get unleashed, well, he's already pretty unleashed. So I don't think it'll get exponentially worse. I just think he's going to be very bold in saying his mind. And his mind is that he thinks that the president is ill-qualified and does a lot of things that are worthy of criticism or at least being held to account.

You know, that's interesting, because Trump would say anything that comes up is criticism. But, I mean, he basically doesn't accept anybody saying, you know, this is the wrong thing to do, or you made a mistake. He won't agree with that.

BERMAN: Now, I'm going to play Jon Stewart last night, Jon Stewart on The Daily Show.

CARTER: Yes.

BERMAN: Again, owned by the same parent company. And then I have a question coming out of this. But listen to what Jon Stewart says.

CARTER: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JON STEWART, HOST, THE DAILY SHOW: And if you believe, as corporations or as networks, you can make yourselves so innocuous that you can serve a gruel so flavorless that you will never again be on the boy king's radar, A, why will anyone watch you, and you are f***ing wrong? You want to know --

(CHEERING)

STEWART: -- how impossible -- is it true?

(CHEERING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So there were people, Bill Simmons, among others, the podcaster, speculating that Jon Stewart might just walk off last night. But my question is sort of a twist on that. Is CBS going to put up with Jon Stewart doing this? You know, the unplugged Jon Stewart or Stephen Colbert for a full year?

CARTER: That's a real good question. I mean, Jon openly said, I'm going nowhere last night. He said, I'm not going anywhere.

So the idea of him walking off is off the table. He did, though, at the end of that say, I think, which I guess means he does think it's possible for them to pull the plug on him. I guess, you know, they have to say to themselves, how far do we want to go looking like we're squashing dissent?

Because now they're basically blaming it on money. But if they pull him off the air, if they pull Jon Stewart off the air after pulling Colbert on the air because of their outspoken criticism of a president, they are openly saying, we're going to squash dissent. We don't like what they're saying.

And that's a pretty dark place for them to be going. I'm not saying they won't do it. I mean, we'll see how much they can tolerate.

But the big thing, Jon, is that the merger will have been finished. And I think that's what's really been in the middle of this, because they don't want Trump to block this merger. It will cost them a ton of money if that falls through. So I think it's really about that.

When they get past that, they'll probably say, you know, let it play out. Jon Stewart's contract is up at the end of this year, for example. They could quietly, or not so quietly, refuse to renew it. And then they won't be saying, we didn't squash dissent. He was able to talk for all these months. We just decided it's time to move on.

BERMAN: I've got to say, for Jon Stewart, it will make every week an event. Stephen Colbert, every night, is going to be an event for some time. Bill Carter, always an event speaking with you. Great to see you. Thank you.

The Trump administration has released more than 200,000 pages of records, not about Jeffrey Epstein, but about Martin Luther King Jr. We've got response now from the King family.

And a recall alert? Millions of above-ground swimming pools sold across the country could pose a deadly risk to children.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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