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Trump Says It Sounds Appropriate for DOJ to Meet With Epstein Associate Ghislaine Maxwell; Trump and Bessent Stop Short of Calling on Fed Chair Powell to Resign, but Say Rates Should Be Lower; Colbert Fires Back at Trump, Says for the Next 10 Months, the Gloves Are Off; Heavy Metal Icon Ozzy Osbourne Dies at 76. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 22, 2025 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:01:48]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CO-ANCHOR OF "CNN NEWS CENTRAL": As the drumbeat to release the files gets louder, a source tells CNN that Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell will oppose unsealing of grand jury materials requested by the Department of Justice.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CO-ANCHOR OF "CNN NEWS CENTRAL": And President Trump goes after Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell, but stopped just short of calling for his resignation. We'll have the latest on that and the battle over interest rates. And then later, Stephen Colbert claps back at CBS and Paramount after his show is canceled with a little help from his friends. We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to "CNN News Central."

SCIUTTO: Today, there is so much news breaking on the Jeffrey Epstein files that it requires a quick state of play. Here it goes. First this morning, President Trump's Justice Department revealed they are right now in talks to speak with Epstein's convicted associate Ghislaine Maxwell. A source then told CNN that a Republican-led effort in the House to subpoena Maxwell passed today by a voice vote.

Minutes later though, on the Hill, House Speaker Mike Johnson urged Republicans to essentially give the White House more time to handle all of this. Johnson then decided to let lawmakers leave Washington early to avoid any Epstein-related vote. And breaking just moments ago, a person close to Maxwell tells CNN, Maxwell will oppose the unsealing of grand jury testimony, which the DOJ has requested. Kristen Holmes is at the White House. Kristen, is there coordination between the White House and the House Speaker here to push back any vote on this?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know the White House and Speaker Johnson are in touch all the time. So, it would be strange if there wasn't some kind of coordination and some kind of conversations around all of this because, as we have reported multiple times since the beginning of Donald Trump's term, he and Johnson, or at least the White House and Johnson are really in lock step in everything that they do. Now when it comes to President Trump reacting himself, he was sitting next to the Filipino President and was asked about the Department of Justice saying, they were going to have a meeting with Maxwell. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't know about it, but I think it's something that would be -- sounds appropriate to do. I didn't know that they were going to do it. I don't really follow that too much. It's sort of a witch hunt, just a continuation of the witch hunt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Then he went on to talk about several other so-called witch hunts against him, clearly, in an effort to shift the narrative here. But I will say one thing, I thought this new reporting that was just put out by Kara Scannell on this source close to Maxwell, saying that she is going to oppose releasing or unsealing this grand jury testimony, this is actually a win for the White House because everything that we have seen so far has been the White House pushing back on this narrative that they aren't being transparent.

So as long as they are the ones asking for the unsealing, if you see someone else like Maxwell pushing back on that, that in itself will be a win for the White House because they get to point to the fact that they were trying to be transparent.

[14:05:00]

Now, the other part of all of that transparency there, Jim, is the fact that his own supporters don't think he's going far enough. Even though he has said that he wants these unsealed, they say why not release more of those investigative files? Some of them even outraged or seemingly outraged that no one from the Department of Justice had sat down with Maxwell as of yet.

SCIUTTO: Some Republican members of Congress seem to think he is not going far enough. Thanks so much, Kristen Holmes at the White House. So let's go to Capitol Hill where Lauren Fox is. So interesting here, I mean, the Republican House Speaker in effect defying some members of his own caucus?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, there's really two dynamics that are playing out right now. On the surface, leadership is making clear that the administration needs more time. Donald Trump needs more time. Their argument to members behind closed doors was essentially, let this breathe and let's take a beat before we continue to apply this kind of pressure on releasing additional files.

Meanwhile, you have some conservatives who are very frustrated with the fact that they feel like this is a campaign promise. They feel like this is the president putting them in a position where they are up against their loyalty to Donald Trump, and also their loyalty to people who put them in office because they're still getting a number of calls. And what you're seeing right now is the House has essentially been paralyzed because the House Rules Committee, which is required for pushing through legislation that will only get Republican votes on the House floor, it is essentially stalled out because Democrats were going to push Republicans for yet another vote on releasing the Epstein files last night.

And rather than take that vote and potentially face backlash from their constituents, Republicans decided to adjourn that meeting and they have not returned. That means that a series of immigration bills that they were supposed to be voting on this week ahead of the August recess, those aren't going to come up. And instead, we expect that the final votes of the week are probably going to take place tomorrow under suspension. That basically means these are bills that Republicans and Democrats can vote on together, that are non- controversial. But all of the Republican agenda meanwhile, has stalled out in this week before Congressional recess.

Now, they've already passed big priorities for the president over the last couple of weeks. There was nothing that they had to pass that was -- had an imminent deadline, but that just shows you how much pressure Republicans are under and how much they do not want to continue to be talking about this, even though there are some conservatives who keep arguing they want more information.

SCIUTTO: The story has changed over time. Lauren Fox on the Hill, thanks so much. Brianna?

KEILAR: A frequent target of the president taking another hit today. President Trump, once again, berating Fed Reserve Chair Jerome Powell for refusing to lower interest rates.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I call him too late. He's too late all the time. He should have lowered interest rates many times. This guy is a numbskull. He keeps the rates too high and probably doing it for political reasons.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: But Powell also got a rare nod of approval from inside the administration. Today, Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent actually praised him despite intense pressure from many in the White House for Powell to step down. CNN's Vanessa Yurkevich is tracking all of the developments from New York on this. Vanessa, tell us a little bit about what the Treasury Secretary had to say and if Powell's job is still safe.

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, well, the Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent was actually in the Oval Office when President Trump made those statements. And he chimed in by saying that he does believe that the Federal Reserve needs to undergo an internal review, especially around expenses and finances. He says that the Federal Reserve spending has quadrupled in recent years, and the administration has really latched on to this renovation, a $2.5 billion renovation of the Federal Reserve's headquarters in Washington, D.C., calling it out of scope and out of budget, really criticizing Jerome Powell over this.

But, the Treasury Secretary went on to say a little earlier today that he believes that monetary policy should be kept in a jewel box and should be protected. And that really goes against what President Trump has been saying, which is criticizing the Federal Reserve and calling on them to lower rates. Also, earlier today, he was asked whether or not he agreed with the president and others that Jerome Powell should resign. Listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT BESSENT, (R) UNITED STATES TREASURY SECRETARY: There's nothing that tells me that he should step down right now. He's been a good public servant. His term ends in May. If he wants to see that through, I think he should. If he wants to leave early, I think he should. But I think there's a real chance here, for him, for his legacy to be that he right-sized the non-monetary policy functions of the Fed.

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[14:10:00]

YURKEVICH: So some praise, for the head of the Federal Reserve Jerome Powell there. One thing though that Secretary Bessent agreed with President Trump on in the Oval Office earlier today was he does believe that the Federal Reserve should lower interest rates. The Fed has not made a rate cut since December of last year. This is something, obviously, that President Trump has been calling on for months now. The Federal Reserve is slated to meet later this month.

All eyes will be on this big decision that will have serious impacts from the position of the president and what he will feel about it, but also it will certainly impact Americans and interest rates that we pay on everyday things like mortgages, cars, credit cards, and student loans. So, all eyes on that critical meeting in the next coming days, Brianna.

KEILAR: All right, we'll be watching Vanessa Yurkevich, thank you so much. Jim?

SCIUTTO: All right, let's speak more about the economics of this. With us now, Business Journalist, Host of Public Radio's Full Disclosure, Roben Farzad. Thanks so much, Roben, for joining this afternoon.

ROBEN FARZAD, HOST OF PUBLIC RADIO'S FULL DISCLOSURE: Thank you, Jim. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: So President Trump says it's a booming economy. Typically though, if the economy is truly blooming, and by the way, some of the signs are quite strong, there wouldn't then be a great need to cut rates immediately. Would there?

FARZAD: And indeed, look at the lesson of leaving rates too low for too long, right? Coming out of the pandemic. And in hindsight, I think the Federal Reserve would admit that this was not transitory. That they should have mopped up that excess cash maybe a year in advance. And we wouldn't have this difficulty of kind of sticking the landing right now. Inflation is still in the system.

Do you want to add fuel? Do you want to add an accelerant to it? Right when we are on the brink of potentially arresting an inflation the likes of which we had not seen in four decades. I mean, it's one thing to be a politician out there. Everybody loves low rates. Everybody loves low cost of capital, lower mortgage rates, credit card rates. But it's another thing to have to deal with the backend of that.

SCIUTTO: So, you have a president quite publicly attacking the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, who he appointed by the way, and even seeming to stir up these claims about using money badly to renovate the Federal Reserve headquarters here. Are we seeing a threat to the independence of the Fed?

FARZAD: Absolutely, The likes of which you have not seen in the modern Fed era. I think in the period of 1913, 1917 to the present, there always used to be a burlesque of kind of, you had to -- the Fed would only telegraph certain things. We used to look at the size of Greenspan's briefcase walking into these testimonies on Capitol Hill. And whether you were a Clinton or whether you were a Bush, whether your -- person was appointed by Reagan, the Fed Chair, you just did not go there, because it's too important a project.

This tens and tens of trillions of dollars of economic power in this country that if, for example, someone like a Bernanke, if he was talked down by the Bush II administration during the financial crisis, do you imagine how difficult it would be to sell that bailout to Congress? How difficult it would be? You have to speak with a unanimous voice. And I think that's the first world luxury we have right now, is that we're not in a recession. We're not in a financial crisis. And so, yes, you can in theory call your central banker a numbskull, but it will not help when and if times collapse.

SCIUTTO: So tell me how the markets might react to this, right? I mean, the markets did prove to be something of a backstop early on, for instance, in Trump's trade war as you -- even he referenced it, right? That the bond markets got a little bit touchy and he backed off, seemingly under the advice of Scott Bessent. Would you expect the markets, if Trump were to successfully force him out, react negatively to that?

FARZAD: Pay attention not just to the stock market, because it's secondary, tertiary readings, but the bond market.

SCIUTTO: Yep.

FARZAD: And if we're being punished for our profligacy, if we're being punished for politicizing it. There used to be these people called bond vigilantes --

SCIUTTO: Yep.

FARZAD: -- 35, 40 years ago, who would punish us for this and demand higher and higher rates. We're kind of dancing on the edge of that right now. And I doubt someone like Donald Trump, whose vested interest is after all, if you're adding so much to the deficit, to maybe pay less in interest, of course you want lower interest rates. But if the bond market comes out and punishes you for politicizing this, you will back off. SCIUTTO: Yeah, I mean, it was the bond market that got the jitters, right, early in the trade war. Who was it who said he he'd like to come back as the bond market? That's real power. Anyway, Roben Farzad, thanks so much.

FARZAD: Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Still to come, did a communication breakdown cause that close call, very close call, which forced a passenger jet to take an aggressive maneuver to avoid a B-52 bomber? What the FAA is now saying. Plus, a late night strike force joins Stephen Colbert to fight back against Paramount's cancellation of "The Late Show." Their outrage no joke.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST OF "THE LATE SHOW," CBS: Over the weekend, it sunk in that they're killing off our show, but they made one mistake. They left me alive.

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[14:19:45]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, look at those guys. They are having a great time.

Oh, kiss him. Oh, nice. And a couple of cold ones.

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[14:20:00]

KEILAR: To Coldplay, nonetheless, some familiar faces of late night TV there, including our very own Anderson Cooper for Steven Colbert's first show since CBS made the shocking move last week to cancel "The Late Show," the host had a blunt message for President Trump last night, firing back at Trump's celebratory response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLBERT: On Friday, Donald Trump posted, I absolutely love that Colbert got fired. His talent was even less than his ratings. How dare you, sir? Would an untalented man be able to compose the following satirical witticism? Go (expletive) yourself.

(CROWD CHEERING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Critics last week, blaming the cancellation on the merger between Paramount, which owns CBS, and Skydance Media. CBS for its part said it was a financially challenging environment for late night TV. I want to bring in comedian Pete Dominick now for more insight. He was the former warm-up comic for Stephen on "The Colbert Report." He's also the host of the "Stand Up! with Pete Dominick" podcast. And Pete, have you spoken with Stephen since last week's announcement?

PETE DOMINICK, COMEDIAN AND HOST OF "STAND UP! WITH PETE DOMINICK" PODCAST: No. But sources close to me have, Brianna. And it's great to see you and I love watching you every day. It's been too long.

KEILAR: It's been too long, and it's great to talk to you about this. I mean, what do you -- what do you think about -- let's first start with this. What did you think about the show last night and the way he handled this?

DOMINICK: I mean, I predicted it the day before, right here on CNN, with your colleague Abby Philip and Laura Coates. I said, he's going to go scorched earth and it's exactly what he did. It's exactly what he did. It's shocking to me that somehow contractually, they're letting him stay on. I think they just don't want to take a black eye, the network, but he's going to give them the worst black eye because he's going to be on till May.

Brianna, you and I are veterans in broadcasting. We've both seen colleagues lose their jobs, on-air people, and you don't get to have one more show after they watch "Walk You Out." CBS, for some reason, is letting Stephen Colbert stay on until May. And he coordinated with his friend, Jon Stewart, his former partner and producer, where the message was F you over. On the Daily Show, there was a whole entire choir singing, go F yourself. That's the message right now. And it's going to get more sophisticated and it's going to continue. And every guest that comes on with Colbert is going to talk about this.

It's going to be nothing but this. It's the worst thing they could have done. And I think the worst thing that Trump, if the administration is in any way involved, it's the worst thing they all could have done for themselves.

KEILAR: Literally a choir, as you said. Let's play another clip actually from last night's show. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLBERT: Over the weekend, it sunk in that they're killing off our show, but they made one mistake. They left me alive.

(CROWD CHEERING)

COLBERT: And now, for the next 10 months, the gloves are off. I can finally speak unvarnished truth to power and say what I really think about Donald Trump, starting right now.

(CROWD CHEERING)

COLBERT: I don't care for him.

(CROWD CHEERING)

COLBERT: Doesn't seem to have like the skill set -- doesn't have the skill set to be president, just not a good fit, that's all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: I mean, how do you think that's going to go down with CBS? Because 10 months of that is going to be a lot, Pete.

DOMINICK: It almost begs the question, is he trying to get fired? What is the contractual deal that they have with each other? If in fact they leave him on and he just pounds them every day, who stands to win? One thing, Brianna, that nobody really thinks about or measures in boardrooms when they're thinking about possible mergers, much less the quarterly profits, they don't think about how hard it is to create a property like Colbert. You don't create him. So, you could give anybody else a billion dollars to have a similar show. They'll never do what he does.

And I know you know this, Brianna, because either you know Stephen or people who does. His reputation amongst people who know him and that's hundreds, if not thousands of people who know him well, is his actions speak louder than his words. Stephen Colbert is not only one of the most brilliant people in all of comedy, he's spoken truth to power his whole career. You remember, when he put himself on the map, burgeoning his image, speaking truth to power, right, to the President of the United States. George W. Bush at that correspondents dinner in 2006, made him famous.

Every night at "The Colbert Report," people asked that question. I watched them. What about that when you spoke to Bush that way? He's always done that. He'll continue to do that. And people realize that the man is so much bigger and better than this and that value you can't create. He supported, a lot of people don't know this, during the writer's strike and during the pandemic, Stephen and his amazing wife, Evie, who's so -- they're so generous.

[14:25:00]

They took care of a lot of people. If a staff member lost a loved one, they took care of them, Brianna. You can't recreate that in a boardroom. You can never create this value. So whatever Stephen does next is going to be better than everything he's done before. And he is done it all.

KEILAR: And you're seeing in that, to what you're saying, the late night TV community has really rallied around him. Can you speak to the message they're sending and not just, right, all kinds of folks and certainly those in comedy. Can you talk -- can you sort of talk about the larger picture to me because there is a lot of money in comedy, and I wonder as you see allies of Colbert, sending this message to the networks, how comedians are feeling pressure, as they feel certainly that this may not have just been a financial decision?

DOMINICK: I mean, it's the most important question. I'm glad you asked it because the broader community, the comedy community matters so much here and entertainment community and journalism community. And you well know, it's the same rule that journalists have, that comedians have. And I, as you know, straddle both of those, I think titles. And it's scary to think that government could have any interference on what we say or what jokes that we make. This is the least American idea. And conservatives and liberals in this country have always agreed on this.

But this is -- this is fascism. We know exactly what this was -- when the government puts its finger on the scale because it doesn't like a comedian in this case, when they come for comedy, who is next? And so, I think when they come for the most influential, most popular, which is Stephen Colbert, of course, all of the rest of the comedians, even if they didn't like Colbert, and believe me, everybody likes and respects Stephen Colbert in the entire community -- comedy community. Even if they didn't like him or will like what he said, they know it means they could be next. And when government comes for comedians, that's a very bad sign. And we're not going to stop. I promise you that.

KEILAR: Yeah. Well, comedians certainly known for being outspoken. Pete Dominick, thank you so much. It's so great to see you and it's great to have you on. Thanks for being with us.

DOMINICK: (Inaudible) great work.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

KEILAR: And we do have breaking news. Ozzy Osbourne, founding Father, a British heavy metal, the front man for Black Sabbath, and the reality TV luminary has died after a year's long struggle with Parkinson's disease.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. Dies at the age of 76, just weeks after performing a farewell show. CNN's Stephanie Elam has more on his life and musical legacy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He was called the Prince of Darkness. And for half a century, British musician Ozzy Osbourne rocked heavy metal fans worldwide. As front man for Black Sabbath, Osbourne's charisma and wildness on and off the stage --

OZZY OSBOURNE, ENGLISH SINGER AND SONGWRITER: Had I known it was a real bat, I would never have bitten into it.

ELAM (voice-over): -- transcended music and made him a cultural phenomenon.

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Ozzy Osbourne.

(CROWD CHEERING)

ELAM (voice-over): Born in Birmingham, England in 1948, John "Ozzy" Osbourne left school at 15 and found inspiration after hearing "The Beatles" on the radio.

OSBOURNE: Well, I can remember, the first time I heard "She Loves You". That changed my life because I thought that's what I want to do.

ELAM (voice-over): Osbourne became lead vocalists of the band that would become "Black Sabbath" in 1968 and pioneered a daring genre- defining new sound. The heavy guitar and riff based albums, Black Sabbath and Paranoid captivated audiences in 1970. As Black Sabbath's fame exploded, so did Osbourne's hell-raising behavior. He was fired from "Black Sabbath" for drug and alcohol abuse in 1979. Those same issues broke up Osbourne's first marriage and followed him for decades.

LARRY KING, FORMER CNN ANCHOR AND HOST: Have you been tempted to go back to the drug usage?

OSBOURNE: All the time. I mean when you are a drug addict, you don't stop being a drug addict because you stop taking them.

ELAM (voice-over): But Sharon Arden, the daughter of Black Sabbath's manager, helped get him back on his feet and encouraged him to go solo. Osbourne's debut single "Crazy Train," got the singer back on the rails. Ozzy and Sharon married in 1982, and Sharon managed his career for the rest of his life. Their love was on full display to an entirely new audience. In the 2002 MTV reality series, "The Osbournes." Ozzy's dry, at times, unintelligible humor and relatable parenting challenges endeared him to millions and the fly on the wall look at the Osbourne's expletive-laden daily life shot the family to fame.

After years of speculation about his health, Osbourne revealed his Parkinson's disease diagnosis in an interview with "Good Morning America" in 2020. But Osbourne was committed to making more music. And three years later, he won two Grammys for his album "Patient Number 9," bringing --