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Johnson To Begin House Recess Early To Avoid Epstein Vote; Source: Maxwell To Oppose Unsealing Of Grand Jury Materials; Hunter Biden Attacks Dem Insiders In Profanity-Laced Tirade; Heavy Metal Icon Ozzy Osbourne Dies At 76. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired July 22, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:01:05]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: The latest twist in the Jeffrey Epstein files saga, sources tell CNN his associate Ghislaine Maxwell will oppose the unsealing of grand jury materials requested by the Department of Justice. This comes after the DOJ revealed they are in talks to meet with her. And while in the Oversight Committee in the House, a motion to subpoena Maxwell passed by voice vote.

And Hunter Biden is speaking out about the 2024 presidential election, why he is calling out George Clooney and top Democrats for not standing by his father.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And then later, the godfather of heavy metal Ozzy Osbourne has died just weeks after rocking out at a farewell concert with his band Black Sabbath. We are following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SCIUTTO: As Politico just put it, quote, "The Jeffrey Epstein news cycle is nonstop today." President Trump reacted to some of that news just a short time ago, saying he, quote, "Didn't know his Justice Department officials would be seeking a meeting with Epstein's convicted associate Ghislaine Maxwell." The President adding, though, that he thinks it, quote, "sounds appropriate."

On the Hill, House Speaker Mike Johnson has decided to let lawmakers go home early. Staying could have meant a forced vote on those Epstein files. Earlier, a Republican-led effort to subpoena Maxwell actually passed in a House committee by voice vote. Kristen Holmes is at the White House.

So, Kristen, here - I just wonder if the White House made that request to the House Speaker, to send everybody home so there wouldn't be any more votes?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, unclear if there was an actual request made, but one thing to keep in mind here is both the White House and really Speaker Johnson have said time and time again that the two of them are in lockstep. The idea that Speaker Johnson would make a decision like this without first running it by the White House seems suspect, particularly given the fact that I was even told as recently as today from a senior White House official that the White House is in constant contact with the speaker and with GOP leaders on the Hill.

Now, in terms of where President Trump is, what we heard today was any question that there was related to these Epstein files, related to the fact that his Department of Justice was going to be having a meeting or was requesting a meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell. He wanted to change the subject as quickly as possible. And I'm told behind the scenes that's the same as well, that he doesn't want this story dominating.

But one thing we've seen with this White House and this story in particular is that it has them really on the defense. They did have a moment of being on the offense, which is where Trump likes to be in terms of navigating a story. Last week, after that letter - alleged letter - was published by The Wall Street Journal and they filed the lawsuit against the Journal, they felt like there was a coalescing of MAGA forces behind President Trump.

But even now it seems to be weakening a little bit, given the fact that some of these lawmakers on Capitol Hill and some of his loudest allies, most supportive allies, are saying that there still needs to be more information released. Now, of course, this news that we have from Kara Scannell that Ghislaine Maxwell is going to oppose these transcripts from the grand jury testimony coming out actually might be more of a win for the White House, because one of the things that the White House has been worried about or trying to combat is the fact that they continue to be called out for their lack of transparency. At least in this case, they can say that this was something they asked for, even if Maxwell herself is the one opposing it.

SCIUTTO: So, the President, he certainly shared some conspiracy theories about the Epstein files, but the bigger conspiracy he alleged today with regards the 2016 election.

[15:05:04]

And now we have a U.S. president accusing his predecessor, in this case, Barack Obama, of treason. Explain this - explain to us how he is attempting to do that.

HOLMES: Yes, this all relates back to information that his head of - director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, put out on Friday, where essentially, she says that this documentation shows that there was a conspiracy within the Obama administration to manufacture the notion that Russia tried to interfere with the 2016 election.

And just to give you some background here, we had a number of our colleagues who covered that extensively, but also spoke to a number of lawmakers who had covered that extensively and have a deep knowledge of that. And there is no indication that this is, one, Obama committing treason, but, two, that these allegations - there is an indication these allegations actually conflate what intelligence said at the time. But President Trump is really pushing this narrative now, in particular when he was asked about Epstein, he started talking about how Obama had committed treason. There's going to be more of this, President Trump said so himself. He said that Gabbard has more documents to put out. So, this is really just the beginning here, as they try to look for avenues to stop talking about Epstein.

SCIUTTO: Sure, it's not the last time we hear about it. Kristen Holmes at the White House, thanks so much. Brianna.

KEILAR: Let's talk about this now with CNN Contributor Lulu Garcia- Navarro. She is a New York Times journalist and podcast host.

Lulu, DOJ, in talks to meet with Maxwell, you have the House Oversight Committee going to subpoena her after Congressman Tim Burchett forced a committee vote. How are you seeing these developments?

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You only have to look on social media to see how the base of Donald Trump is seeing this. I mean, you had Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene scorning, dangling and I'm quoting here, "bits of red meat at the base." Broadcaster Theo Von has also said he's mad and called on Congress to do more. Laura Loomer dissed A.G. Pam Bondi, saying that the interview with Ghislaine Maxwell seems like a massive cope. And I'm quoting here again, "Why wasn't this, quote-unquote, 'interview with Ghislaine Maxwell done on day one?'"

So, what you are hearing is that this isn't coming from the enemies, perceived enemies of Donald Trump, you know, the mainstream media, the Democrats. This is coming from the people that Donald Trump really cares about. And though - and that's his base, right? Those are the people that he relies on to keep him in power. It's the barometer within which he measures his entire presidency. And so, this is a real problem for him.

KEILAR: Do you think the President and the White House are misreading their base? I mean, they keep having to make this kind of concessions to the reality of what their base wants. And we'll be looking to see if that continues, if they have to do more. Do you think they actually can do anything to satisfy their base on this, considering how they've operated thus far?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Well, I mean, if you think about what's happened in Congress, this shows the really difficult position that the administration is in, because, you know, you had, you know, two lawmakers, one Democratic, one Republican, basically try to put this to a vote and call for all the documents to be released. And then what happened - what actually happened? You then had to see the Speaker of the House say, you know what, we're cutting our last work week short. We're going on our five-week recess early because we don't want to have our lawmakers embarrassed and put on the record to be acting in perceived opposition to the administration.

So, this is going from online outrage to the halls of power inside the Congress. And so, that becomes really more serious. And of course, Democrats are having a field day with this. They really are smelling blood in the water and they're doing as much as they can to keep this controversy alive.

KEILAR: Lulu, how do you think, I mean, in lieu of what you just mentioned about Congress adjourning for recess early to avoid this vote on releasing Epstein info, how do you think Speaker Johnson is handling this issue?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I mean, at this point, duck and cover, right? He's basically saying we're closing up shop. He's putting a, you know, close sign on Congress and he's sending all his lawmakers back to their districts. The problem is all those lawmakers back in their districts are going to be hearing from their constituents because this is something that matters to the Republican base. I would argue it matters to many people because of the horrific crimes that Epstein was charged with and also the fact that we know that the President of the United States was friends with Epstein for so long and that there still is so much to be learned about this case.

And so, you know, this is something that has captured the popular imagination.

[15:09:59]

People feel like they have been hearing about this for so long and they don't understand why this president, who campaigned on a promise of transparency, of opening up the books, of showing what was - really happened behind the scenes, isn't doing what he promised.

KEILAR: Trump really doesn't want to talk about this. And that was evident today in the Oval Office. He was asked about this and he immediately pivoted to accusations against former President Obama and Russia's influence in the election in 2020 and went on for quite - I mean, at length, Lulu, if you saw that, it was for quite some time. What did you think about that? And do you think that ultimately that's going to fly?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I think he's doing everything he can to try and distract and tell people to look over here. He's using conspiracies that have long been embraced by someone in his base to distract them from what is happening. I mean, if you look at his social media feed, I mean, he's been, you know, putting A.I. images of a woman battling a snake. And I mean, anything and everything to try and get the subject to be changed.

But as I said at the beginning of our conversation, Brianna, it's the base, his base that wants answers. And so, you know, while they might be open to hearing about Obama, while they might be entertained by A.I. images on his social media feed, this has become bigger than he can really manage. And I think that's something that is new for President Trump. He is very much used to being able to set the agenda on what his base focuses on. And this, I think, is the first time where that is not happening.

KEILAR: Lulu, great to have you. Thanks for being with us.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Thank you.

KEILAR: Jim.

SCIUTTO: Monday marked one year since former President Joe Biden dropped out of the 2024 presidential race. And now his son, Hunter Biden, is speaking out, criticizing that decision. New interviews, Biden lashes out at Democrats for not doing more to back up his father. And he's also revealing why he says his father had such a disastrous performance during the CNN debate last year, which ultimately led to a flood of public calls for the former president to end his reelection campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUNTER BIDEN, SON OF FORMER PRESIDENT BIDEN: I know exactly what happened in that debate. He flew around the world, basically, and the mileage that he could have flown around the world three times.

ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Yes.

BIDEN: He's 81 years old. He's tired as (expletive). They give him Ambien to be able to sleep. He gets up on stage and he looks like he's a deer in the headlights.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: With me now, Democratic strategist and former Biden White House director of message planning, Meghan Hays.

Good to have you.

MEGHAN HAYS, FORMER BIDEN WHITE HOUSE DIRECTOR OF MESSAGE PLANNING: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: I certainly don't begrudge a son's desire to defend his father. I might do the same. But I wonder, does anyone in the Democratic Party believe that Biden would have survived that debate performance if the party had just backed him up?

HAYS: No, I don't think so. And I don't think the Democrats are still talking about this. Democrats are trying to move on and trying to plan for the 26th election, the midterms and then on to the 28th presidential, which we're all still talking about - or still - we're starting to talk about now as well. So, I don't think anyone sitting here worried about it and I think that everyone sees this for what it is. Hunter is defending his father, which is very typical than what people see.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, though, because he goes after the Democratic establishment as well, George Clooney among them and others. He's not the only one, though, right, that is criticizing the Democratic Party leadership for its messaging, how it's responding to Trump, even how it's responding, for instance, to Mamdani's win in the New York mayoral primary, right? Does he have something of a point about the party's leadership and its missteps in recent months and years?

HAYS: I mean, these are clearly his opinions and he has the right to express them. And over three-hour podcast, he talked about a lot about addiction and recovery. So, the parts about the Democratic Party were a small portion of it and parts about the former president were also a small portion. So, I don't want that some of that stuff to get lost as well.

But we - the Democratic Party has a real identity problem, and I think that they are working to fix that. And there was a New York Times story that they're doing a retrospective from the DNC. So, they're - he's not alone in the criticism, for sure. Everyone is - you can see that. You can see that there's been missteps since the 24-cycle.

So, he's not alone in the misstep. I just - or in the criticism of the missteps. I'm just not sure that people want to hear really from Hunter at this moment in time.

SCIUTTO: So, are you as someone who yourself on this broadcast and others on CNN have criticized some Democratic mistakes? Are you seeing leadership from both elected Democratic leaders other in the party structure that's necessary now for Democrats to turn this around?

HAYS: I mean, I think I would like to see more as a Democrat. I think that the people in the country would like to see more. But what we are seeing a lot of is people out in the country and actual Democrats in counties and in cities are starting to do things. They organize the No King's marches and they are doing stuff Democrats have done extremely well down ballot since the 24 election. So, there is progress there. There are things that are hopeful and signs of hope that are far past the national leadership. The Democratic Party is more than the national leadership. And I think that is what we are starting to see.

[15:15:08]

SCIUTTO: So, let's talk about one thing that a lot of folks around the country are being asked about, and that's redistricting, right? Because you have Texas and now Missouri, I believe, the legislature is quite unusually, we should say, not at the turn of a decade when you have new census data, but right in the middle, right before a crucial midterm election that they're trying to reduce.

HAYS: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Redraw districts so you reduce Democratic representation in those seats. How should Democrats in blue states respond? Should they respond --

HAYS: In kind.

SCIUTTO: -- in kind?

HAYS: They should do the same. This is not - we are not playing by politics as we used to play by, Democrats should also do the same. If they want to win in '26 and want a chance of winning again in '28 for a presidential, they also need to redistrict. If that is the new rules of the game, we are playing the rules of the game.

SCIUTTO: Can they though? Because in some blue states, right? You have different rules. If you look at California, right? You have a deliberately an independent commission, which this was designed years ago to avoid exactly what we're seeing right now. So, can those blue states do the same thing?

HAYS: They should try their hardest. I don't know all the different election laws in these states, but they should try. They - we should not be apologetic for trying to do the exact same things that Republicans are doing to win the majority.

SCIUTTO: Meghan Hays, thanks so much.

HAYS: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Still to come, Ozzy Osbourne, the rock icon and reality TV star has died sadly just weeks after performing in a farewell concert alongside his Black Sabbath bandmates. This in his hometown of Birmingham, England.

KEILAR: Plus, people tried to help Malcolm-Jamal Warner before he drowned in the ocean while on vacation in Costa Rica. What we've just learned from the autopsy.

And later, a new report finds that organs were taken from patients who were showing signs of life. Now, health officials say they'll make changes to the country's organ donation system. We have that and much more coming up on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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[15:21:01]

KEILAR: We do have some breaking news and it is sad. In the world of music, rock and roll icon Ozzy Osbourne has died at the age of 76.

SCIUTTO: Listen, a true, true legend going back to the '70s. Nicknamed the "Godfather of Metal" and at times the "Prince of Darkness." Ozzy was known for his antics both on and off stage as the ferocious front man for Black Sabbath, later as a reality TV star. CNN's Stephanie Elam is here with more. And we did know that he was suffering from Parkinson's disease. They announced that - the family back in 2020. What more do we know about his death?

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we learned that after a fall, if you remember, Jim and Brianna, that he had Parkinson's disease and he was battling that. He had also dealt with emphysema and obviously the decades that he had spent in recovery from his addictions. And he talked about that a lot as well.

But he was a bit of a dichotomy to just parse out a bit because of the fact he was known for his heavy rocker imagery. You know, he left school at 15, knew that he was influenced by the Beatles, wanted to go into music, became the lead singer of Black Sabbath. And then in 1979, they canned him simply because he was out of control. He was missing practices. He was in his addiction. And so, they let go of him at that time. But obviously he came back in his solo act after he met Sharon. And

they proceeded to have this love affair that we've watched played out even through reality TV. And that's where it's very interesting because you got the guy with the black eyeliner singing these songs, you know, heavy metal, full on rocker. And then we also saw him as like a dad who loved his kids.

And that was just something people had a hard time wrapping their heads around, but loved to watch, loved to see this man who turned out to be such a family man. You know, he was married before he met Sharon and had two biological children and adopted a child that was from his - her previous relationship. And then, the three children he had with Sharon.

So, this was a man who knew about fathering. He had six kids. And so, to see that play out on that MTV reality show was also very interesting for people to watch. And I still say it's something that's worth noting. A lot of times when we got those looks into people's family lives, the relationships did not make it.

And that is not the case with the Osbournes. This family, this union stayed tight. And that's one of the things that people very much loved about the Osbournes. And you think about this man who dealt with all the things he went through to perform his last concert just at the beginning of this month. Just at the beginning of this month.

He was sitting down in this big regal black chair, as you would expect. But he was singing the songs, knowing all the words and performing just weeks before his body was about to give out on him. It really is a phenomenal testament to the kind of performer Ozzy Osbourne was.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KEILAR: Yes, certainly. And the type of person ...

SCIUTTO: (INAUDIBLE) ...

KEILAR: ... that he was and family man. Stephanie, thank you so much for that.

With us now is Riki Rachtman who was the host of MTV's Headbangers Ball.

Riki, you've known Ozzy for decades. And before we talk a little bit about that concert, which I think was a real high point for him to go out on, can you just share some of your memories and what's really top of mind for you as you've learned today that he's passed away?

RIKI RACHTMAN, HOST, MTV's Headbangers Ball: Well, the first time I'd ever met Ozzy was at a club that I used to own called the Cathouse. And he was typical kind of drunk, messed up Ozzy. Then, it was just like, you know, that's Ozzy Osbourne. It didn't matter really what type of music you were into. You always looked at Ozzy as just being, like, up there. I still believe, like, I can't think of any rock singers that you always know it's Ozzy's voice. And then, when I met him working through MTV, I saw him for the person

he really was, kind of a prankster, joker. And there's a picture of me with Ozzy and Jack.

[15:25:01]

And when Ozzy brought in his kids, and I saw a very young Jack, I saw Ozzy as the father. And he was a kind, warm, incredible person. And, you know, and rock and roll is so varied and it's different genres. But there isn't anybody that listens to rock and roll or pop music that doesn't look at Ozzy as being one of - just one of the best. And, you know, it's still kind of hitting now. I walk in my house, I have golden platinum records that Ozzy gave me. And it's just hitting me now that we lost Ozzy, even though after watching that final performance, I think we all knew that this really was his final performance.

SCIUTTO: Yes. You know, it's interesting, that contrast. It's funny, so I grew up in the '70s and I remember as a kid when my sisters had his albums, I was scared of him, right? I mean, he was a scary looking dude.

KEILAR: Oh, yes.

SCIUTTO: He bit the head off of a bat, right?

KEILAR: That's right.

SCIUTTO: But then - so then when he comes out on the Osbournes, and he's this kind of lovable guy --

KEILAR: Lovable, yes.

SCIUTTO: -- that contrast was so different. You wrote on July 9th, after that final show, that you got a little teary listening to his vocals there. Tell us why.

RACHTMAN: Yes, I'm - excuse me if I might get a little teary again right now. His final song was "Crazy Train," but when he did "Mama, I'm Coming Home," and you could tell it was struggling. But for once, I think all the rock fans that were watching it weren't saying, oh, Ozzy's vocals weren't perfect. It was really, really powerful. And I think all of us watching it knew that, like - you know, I have photos of me and Ozzy from 1992 that says "No More Tours."

He retired a bunch, but we knew this was really Ozzy's last show. And he went out on top. He went out loved, incredibly loved. And watching him do "Mama, I'm Coming Home," it's like, yes, I mean, I - it really hit for any of us in rock and roll. It was amazing. He really - the final show really was his - him going out on top, with so many people, you know, paying tribute to a complete legend in all of rock and roll.

And he transcended rock and roll from the reality shows. You know, some of us were like, oh, he's a reality show. But then he comes out and puts out records. And, you know, when he put out a record that's like Post Malone, Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, it's like at all these people that want to work with Ozzy Osbourne. There's a reason for that.

KEILAR: And Riki, I think a lot of people are going to be playing their favorite Ozzy songs, Black Sabbath songs today. I know I'm going to put on "Crazy Train" and "Iron Man" because my kids love them. It's just transcended. Even a seven and nine-year-old loved these songs. We'd rock out in the car to them. What are you going to be playing today? What song - songs?

RACHTMAN: You know what? I play Black Sabbath a lot. But there was this solo record that came out that had - you know, maybe no - God, if I play "No More Tears," that's really going to be tough. But I don't know. The beauty of Ozzy is we can go back to some metal classics with Sabbath and some heavy songs. But he also did some really good ballads.

I mean, the Sabbath song - if I hear the Sabbath song "Changes" right now, I think I'm going to lose it. And Yungblud's version, by the way, was just epic. I mean, I don't know. I'm listening - but I've been listening to Ozzy and Sabbath forever anyway, but now it really hits. But as - and I'm just finding out, you know? So, I still haven't really processed the whole thing that Ozzy isn't with us. But he did go out on top and everybody knows that. And he went out being, you know, they call him the "Prince of Darkness." He's the king. He's definitely the king. And we were so blessed to have Ozzy through - most of - I'm old and Ozzy's been there since day one, you know?

SCIUTTO: Yes. Can you clear up some sort of internet sleuthing questions? Did he know he was biting the head off the bat or was it really ...

KEILAR: The live bat.

SCIUTTO: ... a live bat ...

RACHTMAN: Okay, no, no, no. What people ...

SCIUTTO: ... or was it really - he thought it was a rubber bat?

RACHTMAN: Yes, he thought - and the thing that people don't talk about was all the shots that he had to have, the rabies shots that he had to have in his stomach when he bit off the bat. And then, there was something they - that also happened. There's a photo of him with a dove. And that's another story.

But when they threw a bat - I mean, who's going to expect a bat to be thrown on stage? And Ozzy had to go through a series of rabies shots in his stomach that he said were extremely painful. So, you know, but it adds to the ...

SCIUTTO: Yes.

RACHTMAN: ... evilness of Ozzy. And if you met Ozzy, he really wasn't that evil, you know? Even on stage he wasn't like all evil. He was jumping around and singing. He was just - it was so fun.

SCIUTTO: Well, the man enjoyed life. Riki, thanks so much for sharing your memories of him.

RACHTMAN: Thank you so much.

SCIUTTO: Well, just ahead, new details on another tragic death.

[15:30:02]

This is the death of the actor Malcolm-Jamal Warner. We're going to have those coming up.