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DOJ Interviews Convicted Epstein Co-conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell For Second Day In A Row; Trump Says He Hasn't Thought About Pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell; George Santos Remorseful As He Begins Seven-Year Prison Sentence; Deportation Flights From Everglades Detention Center Have Begun; FEMA Memos Warn Of Risks From $1 Billion Cuts To Disaster & Security Grants. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 25, 2025 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:01:18]

JESSICA DEAN, CNN ANCHOR: A top DOJ official interviews Jeffrey Epstein's convicted associate, Ghislaine Maxwell, for a second straight day. Now, the sit down comes after President Trump said he hadn't thought about whether he'll pardon the woman who groomed young girls for sexual exploitation by Epstein, but he's not ruling it out.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CO-ANCHOR OF "CNN NEWS CENTRAL": Plus, FEMA is proposing nearly $1 billion in cuts to disaster preparedness and security grants. And in internal memos, the agency even lays out the risks of eliminating some of these programs with one of them warning the cuts would create a "less secure nation." And CNN sits down with the police chief and the lead investigator at the center of the Idaho student murders, see what they had to say about the case as key questions remain unanswered. We're following these major developing stories and many more, all coming in right here to "CNN News Central."

DEAN: Happening now, major questions over what happens now that Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche has ended roughly 10 hours of questioning with Jeffrey Epstein's convicted associate, Ghislaine Maxwell. Maxwell is serving 20 years for conspiring with Epstein to sexually abuse young girls. Earlier, President Trump was asked if he would pardon her. He did not say no.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Would you consider a pardon or a commutation for Ghislaine Maxwell if cooperating --

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It's something I haven't thought about.

LIPTAK: If it's recommended --

TRUMP: It's really something -- it's something -- I'm allowed to do it, but it's something I have not thought about.

(END VIDEO CLIP) DEAN: The president, a few minutes later, said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: You should focus on Clinton. You should focus on the president of Harvard, the former president of Harvard. You should focus on some of the hedge fund guys, I'll give you a list. These guys lived with Jeffrey Epstein. I sure as hell didn't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: And a few things to note here, as Maggie Haberman in The New York Times points out, Trump for weeks has denied any knowledge of Epstein's crimes. His Justice Department also said there is no list. As for former President Clinton, he has denied any wrongdoing and a source close to him tells CNN, President Clinton has never been accused of any wrongdoing.

Furthermore, when asked about the release of documents last year by the court, we did not and do not object to the unsealing. I want to go now to CNN's Kevin Liptak, who was the one asking President Trump that question about a possible pardon for Maxwell. Kevin, we heard that clip. You were there though. What more context can you add around this?

LIPTAK: Yeah, and I should just point out, the reason that people are so interested in whether President Trump wants or is open to pardoning or commuting the sentence for Ghislaine Maxwell is because it is a question of what she hopes to get out of these meetings. She's down in Tallahassee. She's meeting with the Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, who is trying to seek out more information about this Epstein case. But she maintains her innocence.

She's been appealing her case and she wants to get out of prison. And so, it remains an open sort of debate about what she hopes to get out of these meetings because certainly, she hopes to get something and that's why this question of a pardon or a commutation of her sentence, I think is so important. You hear the president there saying he hasn't thought about it, but that he does maintain the power to do it, if he should decide that that's a path that he wants to take.

The other question that the president was asked here was how he can sort of ascertain the credibility of Maxwell given, one, she's a convicted sex trafficker, but two, she wants to get out of jail. And he said that he was confident that Todd Blanche, who we should also note, is President Trump's former criminal defense attorney, that he's been in this type of situations before and that he essentially trusted him to have a good read on whether Maxwell was telling the truth or not.

[14:05:15]

And so, the prison also clearly hoping to deflect some of the attention on all of this pointing, as you played there, to Epstein's association with Bill Clinton, who like Trump has said that he wasn't aware of Epstein's crimes and also had cut ties with Epstein before he was convicted of any of them. And now, the president today is also answering questions about the so-called birthday book, which has become a sort of a subplot in all of this. This is a book that Maxwell compiled for Epstein's 50th birthday.

Remember, The Wall Street Journal actually reported that President Trump included a letter in that book, which also had a drawing of a naked woman. The president has denied it. He's suing The Wall Street Journal for $20 billion over it. But he was asked today whether he still maintained that he did not write that letter. Listen to what he said there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did not write a letter for Jeffrey Epstein's birthday list?

TRUMP: I don't even know what they're talking about. Now, somebody could have written a letter and used my name, but that's happened a lot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIPTAK: So the president still saying that he didn't write the letter, but that someone else may have done it in his name. It is within the realm of possibility that that birthday book comes into the public sphere at some point. It is being held right now by the Epstein estate. There's one Democratic lawmaker, Ro Khanna, who says that he plans to subpoena the estate for that book and the estate says that they'll comply with any lawful processes, guys.

DEAN: All right. Kevin Liptak at the White House. Thank you for that. Brianna?

KEILAR: Let's talk more about the legal ramifications in the Epstein case. We're joined now by former Miami-Dade County Court Judge Jeff Swartz. He's now a professor at the Thomas M. Cooley Law School's Tampa Bay Campus. Judge, thank you for being with us. You heard Trump there. He did not rule out pardoning Maxwell when asked by our Kevin Liptak at the White House. Given that, what issues does it raise for you that his former personal lawyer, Justice Department number two, Todd Blanche, met with Maxwell over the last two days?

JEFF SWARTZ, FORMER MIAMI-DADE COUNTY COURT JUDGE: Well, I'm left with so many questions out of all of this and the pardon is one of them. I don't see how he pardons Ms. Maxwell and lives with the four corners of what will be a massive attack on him for trying to buy her testimony and/or covering up. If he doesn't do anything at all, then people are going to say he is covering up. I don't know what Todd Blanche is going to do with all this testimony that he's getting over the last 10 hours with her.

Are we going to see it? Is he going to disclose the contents of these conversations? If he doesn't disclose it, again, the scream and yell will be cover-up. If he does give it up, the question will be what did he promise in return for all of this? And is Ms. Maxwell ready to wait three more years for her pardon because politically the president can't afford to do it. I don't know what you do with everything that's happening right now.

KEILAR: Blanche didn't meet with Maxwell in the prison. That's where, of course, where she's serving her 20-year sentence. He met with her at the courthouse in Tallahassee. Does that change anything in regards to the documentation of their meeting, recording of it, the flow of information about what she may be saying?

SWARTZ: I don't think it changes that, but what it does is, it gives Mr. Blanche some cover that he's not seen walking into a prison like defense attorneys do or line prosecutors do to interview people. It's being done in a different kind of atmosphere. The same thing that it makes it more comfortable for Ms. Maxwell who's outside of a prison for 10 hours or whatever it takes to get her to the place where she's at. And a lot of inmates love the idea of just getting out of prison for a while. I think this is all just, at this point, somewhat performative. It doesn't matter where she's at. The interviews would be the same.

KEILAR: Yeah, I'm sure it's a little bit of a furlough for anyone who could get out for a bit. Her lawyer said yet again, because he said this before, that this is the first opportunity she's ever been given to answer questions about what happened. We should note she did, of course, have a trial and she chose not to testify. He also said that in the conversation with Blanche, the Deputy AG, "She never invoked a privilege. She never refused to answer a question." If that's true, what questions does that raise for you about the arrangement that may have been made for Maxwell to speak to him?

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SWARTZ: Well, this is what's known as, for lack of a better way to put it, a queen for a day. That is that she gets to say whatever she wants to whatever she wants to say with absolute immunity from what she says. And to also bind Mr. Blanche's hands as to whether he can disclose anything or use any of this, in return for making a statement and hoping that after she makes all these statements and answers all these questions, that she'll get some consideration for it, whether it's a reduction in her sentence, a commutation, or a pardon.

This happens a lot in the federal criminal justice system where defendants are trying to make a plea deal with the government, and the government wants information from that defendant to help in their further investigations. This is not unique.

KEILAR: Judge Jeff Swartz, great to have you. Thank you so much.

SWARTZ: Thanks for having me.

KEILAR: Jessica?

DEAN: Just moments ago, the deadline expired for disgraced former Congressman George Santos to report to prison. He is set to spend more than seven years behind bars for wire fraud and aggravated identity theft. He was removed from his House seat in 2023 and recently spoke about his biggest regrets on the podcast "Sources Say with Juliegrace Brufke." (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE SANTOS, (R-NY) FORMER GOP REPRESENTATIVE: Of course, I'm remorseful. Of course, I regret. Look at what I did to my own life. Do you think that I'm not remorseful? Like, only those who are with me in my intimate setting on a day-to-day know, how much I sit back and I cry sometimes myself to sleep, of not just remorse, but of being like, I repent, like everything. Like if I could do it all over again, it'd be so different. Not because I got caught, because I was blinded by ambition and I did so much stupid. Right? In the name of what? Becoming a congressman, it's not even that cool.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: With us now, the host of that podcast, Congressional Reporter for 24sight News, Juliegrace Brufke. Juliegrace, good to see you.

JULIEGRACE BRUFKE, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, 24SIGHT NEWS: Good to see you too.

DEAN: Watching that clip, you're just so struck. I mean, we were there together when he was in Congress, and I remember just how defiant he was in those halls. And it's now like reality is kind of hitting him in the face, but he -- and while he says he is remorseful, he didn't say he is mad about -- that he is mad about getting caught. Like, it's interesting.

BRUFKE: I mean, it is -- it was a very interesting conversation.

DEAN: Yeah.

BRUFKE: I mean, I've covered him for a long time, talked to him a lot on and off camera, and I think from my conversations with him, he has had kind of a hard time coping and has pointed a lot of fingers on social media, watching other people get pardons. But I mean, from my conversations, I do think he is remorseful for some of those crimes, and I think kind of terrified of going in for a little over seven years was kind of my takeaway.

DEAN: Yeah. I mean, seven years is not nothing. Yes, it's a long time. What were his top concerns about this? I mean, he sounds like almost fearful about it.

BRUFKE: Well, he is definitely concerned about his safety. He brought up that he is a gay man. He feels like he's been a high-profile gay man that will likely be a target in there. So I asked him if he had hired prison consultants or kind of figured out a way to cope in there, which he hadn't. So he's, kind of going in and I guess, it's going to be baptism by fire for him, but it's definitely going to be an adjustment.

DEAN: Yeah, no doubt about it. And look, he was only one of six members to be expelled from Congress that was -- it was the first in more than two decades. And a year and a half on, like, how does he think about that? I mean, obviously, he said it's not even that cool to be a Congressman, but like how does he think about his time there and kind of what transpired?

BRUFKE: Well, it's interesting at the beginning of the interview, he is like, if I were to go back in time, I would've done it again. But I wouldn't -- I would've been truthful about it. I think my personality could have carried me through that -- through that election. I mean, he definitely made some enemies and (inaudible) a good portion of the New York delegation definitely hammering him there. And I think he does resent being expelled there.

But I've talked to some of the conservative hardliners who've kind of tried to get in Trumps (ph) here a little bit about a possible commutation down the line. So right now, it doesn't look like that's happening in the immediate future, but I guess, we'll see.

DEAN: Yeah. Is that something he holds out any hope for?

BRUFKE: I mean, I think so. I mean, with seven years, I feel like anybody would want to have hold out hope for something along those lines. But, I feel like he's kind of cautiously optimistic, but realizing he's going to have to do some time.

DEAN: Yeah. And so, as someone who's covered this from start to finish, has interviewed him so many times, now he is going to prison, like what are kind of your thoughts as we reach this point in this story?

BRUFKE: So when I spoke with him, I mean it's definitely, he's gotten so much publicity over the years and initially, at least he's not going to be able to have visitors outside of immediate family. He requested to have a tablet or an iPad of sorts to kind of be able to still do social media and be able to make some sort of income for his family, which was shut down. So, I think it's going to be kind of a drastic lifestyle. I mean, obviously, going to prison's a drastic lifestyle change for anybody, but, I feel like as a high-profile person, it's going to be kind of interesting for him to navigate.

DEAN: Yeah, for sure. And look, he's doing -- he sat down with you, he spoke with Tucker Carlson. He is doing what appears to be kind of a pre-prison PR round, one last time before he goes in.

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BRUFKE: A little bit. I mean, I think he just kind of wanted to get his thoughts out there and a little bit of a mea culpa for some of the mistakes that he had made over the years and now, kind of acknowledges. But, I mean, one of the interesting things, he says he kind of wished he took to trial since he kind of got the worst outcome of what the sentencing could have been. So it's -- I guess, we'll see what his lawyers do moving forward, if we'll try to, I mean, he pled guilty, so we'll see how they try and navigate some of the visitation rights moving forward. But yeah, it's --

DEAN: It is an interesting end to this story and I guess, we'll see where it goes from here. Juliegrace, good to see you.

BRUFKE: Thank you for having me. DEAN: Yeah. Thanks for being here.

Still to come, new details this afternoon on deportation flights leaving the new Immigrant Detention Center in the Florida Everglades. Plus, a warning from FEMA about the national security risk resulting from billions of dollars in budget cuts. And extreme heat can be deadly, it can also be making our bodies age a lot faster. Great. New health concerns from our changing climate. That and much more, coming up on "CNN News Central."

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KEILAR: We're following new developments surrounding the controversial Everglades Detention Center that is nicknamed Alligator Alcatraz. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis says, deportation flights from the facility have now begun. Let's go to Priscilla Alvarez for more on this. Priscilla, what are you learning about these flights?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're still trying to gather more details about these exact flights. We know that there are detainees who have been moved from the site. It appears though that they are likely transfer flights. That's what flight tracking suggests, to deportation hubs in the United States, where people are often processed before they continue on and are deported to their origin countries. But all the same, the point that the governor was trying to make here is that this is a facility, a makeshift one, that is expected to hold detainees for a temporary period of time to then quickly transfer them out and have them deported. Take a listen to how he described it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS, (R-FL): It was never intended to be something where people are just, held and we just kind of twiddle our thumbs. The whole purpose is to make this be a place that can facilitate increased frequency and numbers of deportations of illegal aliens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALVAREZ: Now, of course, you might remember that this is the facility that President Trump, along with senior Trump officials, had visited because they have touted it as a model they want to see other states copy. Now, over the last several days, I've also been talking to detainees who are held in that facility and they describe poor conditions. You're seeing images there. Well imagine that, but in the hot Florida summer heat, and without it being fully sealed, they say mosquitoes have been coming in. They say they've had issues with sewage. They don't have running water.

Now, the Florida Governor has been behind this facility, so has the Trump Administration. Republican lawmakers have said there are no issues with the site, that there are not poor conditions the way that the detainees have described. But the bigger picture here is that more of these are expected moving forward. There are other states that are flirting with this, that are in touch with senior Trump officials.

So, while the Florida governor was touting this and the way that this facility has operated, despite concerns over the conditions inside for the hundreds who are being held there, there are others in the United States who are watching to try to copy these types of migrant detention centers and get reimbursed by the federal government in the process.

KEILAR: That's a very important note. Priscilla Alvarez, thank you so much for the reporting. Jess?

DEAN: New CNN exclusive reporting today. FEMA is proposing nearly $1 billion in cuts to disaster preparedness and security grants. Now, this is according to internal memos and two FEMA officials familiar with the plans. And in the memos, the agency acknowledges the stark terms, the potential risks of eliminating some of these critical programs. One of the memos from FEMA warns this would create "a less secure nation." CNN's Gabe Cohen is here with us now.

Gabe, how is the Department of Homeland Security defending these cuts? These are big cuts.

GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. So first off, big picture, Jess. The Department of Homeland Security and Secretary Kristi Noem have been overhauling FEMA now for months, trying to shrink the agency's footprint and really shift responsibility for disaster preparedness, response and recovery onto the states. Now, we've obtained these memos that show DHS and FEMA are looking to cut the majority of FEMA's homeland security and emergency management grant programs.

Nearly $1 billion in funding that goes to this wide range of initiatives, disaster preparedness, anti-terrorism, cybersecurity, staffing, training for local first responders, even a disaster early warning system, all of it on the chopping block potentially at this point. Now, the top brass at the agency have said that this is really about refocusing FEMA on its core mission of emergency management. But as you mentioned, these memos that I have reviewed, lay out really in stark terms as written by FEMA personnel, the potential risks of eliminating each one of these 19 programs.

For example, eliminating the biggest one of the programs on the chopping block, this $550 million security grant that goes out to big cities to prepare for major disasters like terror attacks. Well, getting rid of that according to this memo could create "A less secure nation," especially at the border and in some of the nation's most targeted cities, including Miami, Washington, D.C., and Dallas.

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Eliminating another disaster preparedness program, according to the memo, would "Leave state and local governments more vulnerable to catastrophic incidents." And ending yet another one that secures public transit from terrorism would "Contradict the administration's commitment to a safer and more secure country." So clearly, internally there are a lot of concerns about getting rid of these programs, even though it looks like the department wants to move forward with it. DEAN: And do we have a timeline for this?

COHEN: We don't know exactly at this point because it does still need to be approved by the White House and Congress. And to be clear, things could change. But I want to note, I reached out to the Department of Homeland Security with a long list of questions about this and they essentially said, well, these memos are cherry picked a little bit. That was their phrasing. But they said they are looking to cut what they called unaccountable programs.

They sent me a statement saying, for years, taxpayer dollars have flowed to bloated grants, political pet projects and groups with questionable ties. That ends now.

The thing is though, Jess, they do have a short amount of time to figure all of this out because all the funding for this fiscal year has to be allocated by the end of it, which is September 30th. There is a process to get that done. That's something they're working internally on. So the clock is ticking, but it's something they're looking at right now.

DEAN: Very, very interesting. Great exclusive reporting. Gabe Cohen, thank you so much. Still to come here, the future of Social Security benefits. There are new concerns, the monthly checks millions of Americans count on to survive could be a lot less down the road.

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