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Trump to Name New BLS Chief; Thomas Kennedy is Interviewed about a Hunger Strike at the Detention Facility in Florida; Watchdog Investigating Jack Smith. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired August 04, 2025 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

MATT EGAN, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Your biggest problem. And we should stress that there's no evidence to support this claim that the BLS was somehow cooking the books here. Even Trump's former BLS chief, William Beach, he told CNN's Kasie Hunt over the weekend, it's not even possible for the BLS commissioner to manipulate the data. Take a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BEACH, FORMER BLS COMMISSIONER: I don't think there's any grounds at all for this -- for this firing. And it really hurts the statistical system. It undermines credibility.

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: The president said that the BLS commissioner rigged these numbers.

BEACH: Yes.

HUNT: What do you think?

BEACH: There's no way for that to happen. The commissioner doesn't do anything to collect the numbers. The commissioner doesn't see the numbers for -- until Wednesday before they're published.

I was commissioner, and I -- I was sometimes locked out of the process of actually, you know, where -- where the people were working in the building. So, there's no way for doing that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

EGAN: No way for doing that. And again, that was the president's former BLS commissioner.

And, look, there's so much at stake here. BLS, it doesn't just put out the jobs report. This is the agency that also collects the CPI inflation report, wholesale inflation, a number of different jobs indicators. And there's practical implications too, right? The BLS puts together the data that decides the cost of living adjustments for Ssocial Security. And investors, CEOs, economists, they rely on accurate and trustworthy data, right, to make decisions. Without it, they'd be flying blind. Same thing for the Federal Reserve, which relies on data, to decide whether or not to lower or raise interest rates.

I talked to Moody's analytics economist Mark Zandi. He told me he's hired a number of former BLS officials. He said they're terrific. And he said, "the Bureau of Labor Statistics has done its work to the highest standard. Anything that undermines that or even the perception of that high standard is deeply worrisome."

And look, it's true that none of these reports are perfect. There's going to be revisions from time to time. It is a massive economy. But the BLS is considered the gold standard. And this whole controversy, this decision to fire the BLS chief, is going to raise some doubt in how much we can trust the numbers going forward.

And just one last point here, John. If you're the president, you want people to be able to deliver you bad news, right? Because if they just sugarcoat everything, you're not going to know the bad news until it's too late.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Firing the scoreboard operator. Matt Egan, great analogy there.

EGAN: Thanks, John.

BERMAN: Thanks.

Omar.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN ANCHOR: With me now is CNN global economic analyst and associate editor of "The Financial Times," Rana Foroohar.

Good to see you again.

Felt like I was just talking to you about a similar topic. Former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers called Trump's claim that the BLS statistician manipulated the jobs report a preposterous charge. Take a listen also to -- to the former head of BLS here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BEACH, FORMER BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS COMMISSIONER: I said, groundless. I don't think there's any grounds at all for this -- for this firing. And it really hurts the statistical system. It undermines credibility in BLS. Suppose that they get a new commissioner and this person, male or female, are just the best people possible, right? And they do a bad number. Well, everybody's going to think, well, it's not as bad as it probably really is because they're going to suspect political influence. So, this is -- this is damaging. This is not what we need to have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: What do you think this means for the next jobs report that inevitably comes out a month from now?

RANA FOROOHAR, CNN GLOBAL ECONOMIC ANALYST: You know, Omar, I think it's so corrosive. It brings this kind of post-fact world that we seem to be living in to the actual data, to the math, to the things that, you know, seem to be non-partisan or have seemed to be non-partisan. They are, in fact. But suddenly it opens up this -- this pandora's box that if you're a Democrat you might see it one way, if you're a Republican you might see it another way. The facts of the matter are that each time the jobs numbers have come out and when they've sometimes been revised, they've not either benefited or -- or been bad for Trump. They've -- they've been both. I mean, you know, this is the same bureau and the same commissioner that he was lauding when good numbers came out. And now the bad numbers coming out, he's -- he's firing them.

And I think one thing that really worries me is that this is what you see in autocracies. This is what you see in emerging markets that don't have rule of law, that don't have democratic governments. You see the firing of officials that people don't like. You see leaders closing themselves off to the truth. I thought Matt Egan made a very good point there, the idea that, you know, you want somebody to be able to deliver you bad news so that you can make good decisions. In other countries -- many other countries that are uninvestable around the world, that doesn't happen. And I'm sad to see it happening here in the U.S. now.

JIMENEZ: And look, whoever gets named next would need to be confirmed by the Senate. Obviously, we know these days that is not always a slam dunk process. If we get to this point next month and we have another set of jobs numbers coming out and we don't have a confirmed head of the BLS in theory by the administration's theory, someone that they can trust at the head of the BLS, do we run the same risk of -- of further corroding?

[08:35:11]

I just wonder how you assess that potential scenario.

FOROOHAR: One hundred percent. I mean, well, you know, for starters, there's been a lot of cuts in government. And it's interesting, actually, it's worth noting that the latest jobs report, one of the reasons that they're lower is that there have been so much cut. There's been so much cutting at the federal government level, and some at the state level. So, in this strangely ironic way, Trump is actually sort of, you know, complaining about the very cuts that his administration made.

We definitely need someone in that position. People need to know, investors need to know that the stats are good, that the stats are right. You know, you have a bureau full of public servants that I'm sure will -- will do their very best in lieu of a commissioner being in charge.

But again, this is -- and I think I said this to you the other day, this is a bit like a drip, drip, drip. You may not see a huge market reaction today, but all of the things that this president is doing, from politicizing the Fed, to the on/off again tariff wars, to this firing are just corroding trust in the U.S. That's one of the reasons why gold prices are so high. It's one of the reasons why every single time we do a Treasury bond auction you see fewer and fewer foreign investors wanting to buy. It has a cumulative effect. And -- and we will feel it at some point.

JIMENEZ: And just quickly, before we go, we're days away from Trump's tariffs taking effect, the U.S. trade rep saying over the weekend that these tariff rates are pretty much set. Is -- is the appetite or the ability for the economy to withstand a tariff future now different than what the outlook was in April when -- when that first set of tariff rates were announced and -- and the so-called liberation day?

FOROOHAR: Yes, I think, again, that's another drip, drip, drip. I mean you've seen a little bit of an impact. But tariffs are not something that hit overnight, right, because goods are on boats. It takes six weeks, a few months for them to get here. Different stores have different amounts of supply and stock. So, it's something that plays out over time.

But we are certainly farther along in that process than we were back in April. I expect you are going to start seeing consumers feel the pinch. I -- I suspect if we were doing this segment in a month from now, we'd be saying, boy, people are starting to feel the pinch, assuming nothing changes. And I think by fall that will be even more true.

JIMENEZ: And the uncertainty around it could also be affecting some of the jobs numbers and revisions we've seen around it as well.

FOROOHAR: Yes.

JIMENEZ: Rana Foroohar, really appreciate the time and insight, as always. Good to see you.

All right, this morning, we are getting a new look at the man authorities say killed four people at a Montana bar, this is that picture there, as the manhunt intensifies for the suspect. We'll have more on that coming up.

Plus, arrested after a night out celebrating his birthday. What we know about the felony charge Soulja Boy is now facing.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:42:38]

BERMAN: New this morning, the Department of Homeland Security tells CNN there is no hunger strike at so-called Alligator Alcatraz, that migrant detention facility in south Florida. The department is responding to allegations from those who have been monitoring the conditions there.

Thomas Kennedy is a policy analyst with the Florida Immigrant Coalition.

Thank you so much for being with us.

DHS says there's no hunger strike. You say there is one. What do you say is happening inside Alligator Alcatraz?

THOMAS KENNEDY, POLICY ANALYST, FLORIDA IMMIGRANT COALITION: (INAUDIBLE) opportunity to come here and tell the truth.

I mean, it's not that I'm saying that there is one. It's the family members and the detainees themselves that are telling us that they've been in -- on 12 days of hunger strike now.

And, you know, I think I -- you guys have the videos that I've been sharing on social media, that we've been sharing on social media, of non-stop ambulances going in and out of the facility for the last three days because people are being hospitalized due to the bad conditions and possibly because of this hunger strike that's happening inside.

But, you know, DHS, the Department of Homeland Security, once again proving itself to be an untrustworthy institution that's willing to lie to cover up what's happening in these detention centers.

BERMAN: Yes, we just showed some video, the video you gave us, of ambulances leaving the facility. Do you know or what do you know for sure about the people who were in those ambulances?

KENNEDY: You know, it's difficult because "The Miami Herald," the paper of record here in -- in Miami-Dade County, actually was able to confirm one hospitalization through HCA Florida a couple of weeks ago. Ever since then, hospitals have gone radio silent. I mean, journalists and organizations like ours can neither confirm nor deny they're reaching out to health care institutions in the state. And that's because in the state of Florida, as most people, most objective people know, institutions are captive to the power and influence of our overreaching and aggressive state government. But we can see with our very own eyes that, you know, these -- these ambulances are going in and out.

And then we hear from the family members and the detainees themselves that call their family members that people are being hospitalized and that they are engaging in this hunger strike, which, by the way, they're punished for all the time.

BERMAN: Again, and just let me read the statement, the full statement from DHS here so you know what they're saying, again about the idea of a hunger strike.

[08:45:07]

They say, "false. There is no hunger strike at Alligator Alcatraz. For the record, during hunger strikes, ICE continues to provide three meals a day delivered to the detained aliens room, and an adequate supply of drinking water and other beverages.

So, they continue to say, no, although they say, no, but if there were one, we would do this.

KENNEDY: Yes. I mean, look, this is coming from the same administration that just fired a civil servant for being honest about a jobs report in this country, right? So, again, just like in the state of Florida, all of these are captive institutions serving the whims of one man, the president of the United States. I hate getting political and partisan like that, but that is the truth. And these institutions, like DHS, are willing to lie to cover up the truth. But the videos don't lie. The family members, the detainees themselves, don't lie. They're telling us that they're engaging in this form of protest. And we see with our very own eyes throughout the whole weekend, ambulances going in and out of the facility.

I mean, I -- I -- what I share on social media, I have time stamps that show that every two, three hours, ambulances are going in and out of the facility. So, why doesn't DHS explain that? What is -- what are these ambulances going in and out of the facility for?

BERMAN: How are you going to find out what -- what's happening there? How can anyone find out what's happening inside?

KENNEDY: It's a great question. You know, we are going to keep documenting and advocating against this facility until it's closed down. I can tell you that the ACLU and other organizations are engaged in litigation against this site because they're not allowed to go in to meet with their clients. And, in fact, there was a hearing last Monday on -- on a federal court here in Miami where the lawyers -- their argument was that they don't even know who has jurisdiction over this site. They -- they don't know which immigration court, which jurisdiction to present their cases.

And two U.S. circuit judges ordered the state of Florida to present the federal legal agreement, meaning a 287-G agreement, that gives them authority to detain immigrants at the state level. Because it's a state managed detention center. And the state of Florida refuses to present those legal agreements.

BERMAN: Thomas Kennedy, we appreciate you being with us this morning. Thank you.

A suspect is on the run in a quadruple murder investigation in Tennessee, where a baby was found abandoned. What we're learning about two men arrested and their alleged involvement.

Plus, new video shows the moment a whale and a boat collided off the Jersey shore.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:51:57]

JIMENEZ: The Office of Special Counsel, an independent watchdog agency, is investigating former special counsel Jack Smith. They are two different things. We'll get into that in a minute. But in 2020, Smith led the criminal probes into President Trump's handling of classified documents and alleged efforts to subvert the 2020 election. The new investigation centers on potential Hatch Act violations.

Now, the Hatch Act aims to limit how federal employees can participate in partisan political activities while on duty. Right now, it's a little unclear what exactly the office of special counsel is investigating as a possible violation. But this investigation comes as President Trump and his allies have sought retribution against his perceived political enemies and those who brought cases against him.

With me now is CNN's senior legal analyst, Elie Honig.

Good to see you.

I want to start with -- let's -- let's set the stakes here, because this is largely focused on potential Hatch Act violations. Can you just tell us a little bit about what that is and why there is a -- there is a distinction between that with any sort of criminal proceeding or investigation.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Right, Omar.

So, the most important thing to know here is, this is not, at this point, a criminal investigation of Jack Smith. It's not a welcome development for him to be sure, but it's not a criminal investigation. Now, the thing that can get confusing is, there are two different, completely separate jobs in the federal government, but they share the same name, special counsel. There's the one that Jack Smith was, which we're well familiar with. That's when the attorney general goes and appoints an outside prosecutor to investigate and prosecute criminally potential wrongdoing by high ranking government officials. Robert Mueller was special counsel. Jack Smith was special counsel.

That's not what this is, though. He's on the receiving end. But there's a completely separate agency outside of DOJ, as you mentioned, called the Office of Special Counsel. And what they do is they investigate ethical issues. You mentioned the Hatch Act. The Hatch Act is the law that basically says that federal employees cannot engage in political activity relating to their jobs. So, at this point, this is simply an ethics investigation, a conflict of interest investigation of Jack Smith. But then again, on the other hand, we don't know where it could go. And the Office of Special Counsel can always draft a referral and a recommendation over to DOJ. That's down the line. But for now, it's focused on ethics, not potential crimes.

JIMENEZ: And Jack Smith doesn't work for the federal government anymore at this point.

HONIG: Right.

JIMENEZ: You know, what's interesting about this is that this dynamic follows what appears to be this pattern of exploring retribution, or what the White House has called accountability for previous administrations that -- that have wronged President Trump in their eyes, even if it's just investigating the president.

And there is a political threshold for retribution, but also a legal one. Do you worry that there's a danger of blending the two?

HONIG: Well, look, Omar, as you know, I was critical of Jack Smith and some of the ways he handled his prosecution. But I also do think that these investigations of him are absolutely about retribution. I don't see any indicator that Jack Smith did anything certainly criminal. And I think we cannot ignore the larger pattern here of the way DOJ has been used and, yes, weaponized. [08:55:05]

I mean just look at the record. They came in and immediately fired anyone who went anywhere near any of the hundreds of January 6th prosecutions for really no good purpose. They've made no secret of the -- of effort to fire back at Jack Smith's team. They fired anyone who had anything to do with Jack Smith's team, from lawyers, to paralegals, to support staff.

So, clearly, one of the main things this DOJ is all about, this administration is all about, is payback. And I do think this development is of a piece with that.

JIMENEZ: And, you know, just toeing the line between the two, I don't know if you saw Stephen Miller, President Trump's deputy chief of staff's comments, where he essentially accused the Obama administration of seditious conspiracy in regards to some of the -- the allegations and findings around Russian interference in the 2016 election. And that, I think, gets to the heart of what I was talking about where there is -- there are political accusations, but obviously seditious conspiracy carries a legal weight and definition as well. Can you just -- can you just help us understand why that might be so far removed from what we have actually seen to play out on the political front right now?

HONIG: Yes, I don't know if I can help you understand what Steve Miller means because it's nonsensical when he talks about seditious conspiracy. We've heard other people talk about treason and sedition and things like that, which -- all of which are wartime crimes that have to do with attempts to overthrow the U.S. government. But what Stephen Miller or others are doing here is really reliant on confusion and conflation of the intelligence around the 2016 election.

Here's the bottom line. Here's the facts. We know, because a Republican-led Senate committee has concluded this, as has the Justice Department, there was an effort by Russia to interfere with the 2016 election. We know that Russia and Putin preferred Donald Trump in that election.

We also know that Russia did not actually hack into the votes and change any votes. So, we also know that Russia did not conspire, in a criminal way, with Donald Trump. That's clear. And what they're doing now is trying to muck it all up and confuse people and throw out these dramatic words like sedition. So, it's an effort to confuse and to distract. And I do think it's part of this effort to for payback.

JIMENEZ: If only everyone could just listen to your sound analysis and just leave it at that. But that's not the world we live in.

Elie Honig, appreciate the insight, as always.

HONIG: Thanks, Omar.

JIMENEZ: John.

BERMAN: You know who's written a book about special counsels? Elie Honig. And it's coming out soon. So, stay tuned for that.

This morning we are learning that a third child has died after a collision between a sailboat and a barge off the coast of Miami Beach. It happened near Monument Island during a youth sailing camp. Five girls and a 19-year-old fell into the water. Two girls, ages seven and 13, died that day. Now a ten-year-old has passed. The Coast Guard is investigating this collision.

Rapper Soulja Boy is facing a felony weapons charge. Los Angeles police arrested him at a traffic stop Sunday morning. On Saturday night, the 35-year-old celebrated a birthday at a nightclub in L.A., and that's hours later, he was arrested.

This morning a whale is dead after colliding with a small boat off the Jersey shore. Video shows the 20-foot whale thrashing and the boat rocking a little bit. One person was thrown from the vessel and managed to swim to a different boat. Now, there were reports that this whale was injured before the collision.

Omar.

JIMENEZ: All right, meanwhile, police in Tennessee have now arrested two associates of a man suspected of quadruple murder. But they are still searching for the actual suspect. They say he killed four members of the same family, including two young parents whose baby the suspect allegedly abandoned in a stranger's front yard.

I want to bring in CNN's Rafael Romo, who joins us now.

Rafael, just what are you learning as far as the latest on this particular story?

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There's been some progress in the investigation, Omar. Two men, described by officials as associates of the suspects, were arrested over the weekend. Two vehicles apparently tied to him were also located in different areas over the last several days. But the target of a statewide manhunt remains at large this morning. The suspect was identified as 28-year-old Austin Robert Drummond by the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. He is five feet, ten inches tall, weighs 190 pounds, and has brown hair, blue eyes, and a goatee, according to the TBI.

Drummond is wanted in connection with the deaths of four people. Their bodies were found last Tuesday in Dyer County, Tennessee, just hours after a seven-month-old baby was found alive and abandoned in a car seat parked at a backyard officials say was chosen at random. Her parents were among the victims.

This morning we're also hearing from Matt Wilson, father of James Wilson, who was one of those killed.

[08:59:57]

In a statement to CNN, Wilson described his son as "a good young man who was an exceptional father," he says, "who would stop and help anyone and was always polite and well-behaved." Adrianna,