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15 Children, Three Adults Injured When Killer Shot Through Windows During Mass; Minneapolis Shooter Visited the Church Weeks Ago to Help Plan Attack; White House Reaffirms FBI Investigating Shooting as Hate Crime; Ousted CDC Chief Clashed With RFK Jr. Before Removal. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired August 28, 2025 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:45]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CO-ANCHOR OF "CNN NEWS CENTRAL": BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CO-ANCHOR OF "CNN NEWS CENTRAL": A community right now is reeling from the horror of yesterday's deadly school shooting in Minneapolis. Two children were killed, 18 other people injured. And as a memorial to the victim's grows, we're learning the tragedy could actually have been worse if not for the church's security protocols, which kept the shooter outside the building. We're also getting new details on the intense planning before the attack. A source telling CNN that the shooter visited the church just weeks ago, under the guise of wanting to spiritually reconnect.

And a warning, the video that you're about to see obtained by CNN is disturbing. This is footage of the moments after the rampage apparent in back of the church, searching for his daughters, capturing the chaos as children are running for their lives.

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SANCHEZ: Let's start this hour with CNN's John Miller. John, tell us more regarding what you're learning about the shooter having visited the school and the church weeks before opening fire.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, this is a date that investigators are actually working backwards to set, but they have interviewed a church employee who said he encountered the shooter or they encountered the shooter during this visit where they sought to see what the shooter was looking for. And he told the employee or the shooter stated to the employee, I'm just trying to reconnect with this place, trying to reconnect with my faith, and wanted to walk around.

Investigators believe that that was in fact a pretext for getting into the main church area and that that was probably where he gleaned the information to make the very detailed drawings that he created, that ended up in the manifesto that the shooter placed on the internet where you can see this detailed schematic, if you will, of the church. That fits in with an emerging theory in the investigation that the shooter's intent was to open fire from inside the church. But the fact that the mass had started already, their normal protocol was to close the doors around the church, and that the shooter wasn't able to gain access at that point.

And then, basically improvising, decided to open fire through the stained glass windows where he's basically targeting in the blind, letting many rounds go on the idea that they'll hit somebody. One of the things that supports that theory according to investigators is, he used -- the shooter used these wooden blocks. And I say that because, legally, Robert changed his name to Robin in 2020 and identifies as female. So, the shooter used these wooden boards to put them through the exit doors. And that way, had the shooter gained entry to the church, which law enforcement believes he tried and been shooting from the inside, those children that we just saw fleeing, if they headed to the emergency exits, they would've found them blocked. And each one of these wooden boards had a smoke dispersal device. So, they would've found them blocked and filled with red smoke.

So we spent a lot of time yesterday, Boris, you and I and Brianna talking about how could this be worse? And the way it could have been worse would be is if the shooter's plans had unfolded the way the shooter intended them to.

SANCHEZ: Yeah. John Miller, thank you so much for that reporting. Let's actually go live to the White House now where we find CNN's Alayna Treene. And Alayna, for the first time, Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt addressed the shooting in the briefing room in the last hour. Tell us about what she said.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Right. She expressed her condolences, of course, for the community and talked about how they're still trying to learn the scope of what happened on the ground.

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But I will say, one of the first questions she got from a reporter was about what the president is going to do to try and address mass shootings overall. This reporter asked specifically about mental health issues, but essentially, what we heard from Karoline Leavitt, the Press Secretary, is that right now the administration, its immediate focus is on helping people on the ground in Minneapolis. She also said that, of course, the shooting happened just a day before and so they're still trying to gather information.

But essentially, we haven't heard anything from this White House about any potential action or legislative steps that they might take to prevent this kind of mass shooting or shooting from happening again. And then she also reaffirmed something that we've heard from the FBI Director, which is that they are looking at investigating this crime as a hate crime, even though a local police on the ground say that they still do not know the motive of the gunman. I want you to take a listen to how she put it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The FBI is currently investigating this shooting as an act of domestic terrorism and a hate crime targeting Catholics. President Trump and the First Lady encouraged the entire nation to join all of us in praying for the victims and their families as they face unimaginable grief and loss.

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TREENE: See, as you could hear her there, I'll just reiterate this again. She said that they are looking at this as a hate crime and a domestic terrorist act, all to say we are still waiting and hoping to get more information from the FBI Department, the Justice Department, and of course, this White House themselves, as we look at further information. I know the president is continuing to get briefed on this, after yesterday, when I saw a lot of officials running downstairs to the Situation Room in the midst of all of this happening. So, still waiting for more answers on any next steps from the administration, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Alayna Treene, live at the White House. Thank you so much. Let's get some expertise with Donell Harvin. He's the former Chief of Homeland Security in Washington, D.C. Donell, thanks so much for being with us this afternoon. So given that the shooter was able to kill two people and injure 18 others without ever stepping inside the chapel and opening fire inside the chapel, shooting only through the walls, the exterior walls, and the windows, is there anything that should be known as a hard target given, that with these assault weapons, you can make access to just about anything with a window?

DONELL HARVIN, FORMER D.C. CHIEF OF HOMELAND SECURITY AND INTELLIGENCE: Well, certainly houses of worship and schools are the softest of soft targets, and he knew that clearly. Listen, we can't harden every school, every house of worship or every building. We saw what happened in Midtown Manhattan a few months ago. And so, certainly there needs to be an examination. But, I want to -- I have to mention this, I want to push back on something that the White House is putting out.

There are initiatives that have been in place for over a decade since the Tree of Life shooting that you recall, the synagogue in the outskirts of Pittsburgh, that non-profit organizations such as houses of worship can get grant money from the federal government through DHS to harden their security postures, to hire security, to train people in how to respond to this. Unfortunately, the Trump Administration slashed that grant in half. And so, this is where we're at right now from a homeland security standpoint.

SANCHEZ: That's an important point to make. I I'm curious about whether you -- from what you've seen, you think that the shooting has the markings of an act of domestic terror and a hate crime against Catholics?

HARVIN: Well, this gets a little nuanced and I teach a class on this in Georgetown. This individual appears to be, what we call, a nihilist. And not to get into too much detail about their ideology, they believe that no lives matter. I believe that calling this or investigating this as an attack against Catholics, I believe is a little disingenuous and it plays into the far-right's narrative about Christians being under attack in this country. Clearly, since this person went to this school, it appears to be, and we don't know their background, but I think that we're starting to see the creepings of the politicization of this tragedy and you'll start seeing that more and more.

I've already seen that online from some lawmakers. But with that said, I appreciate any hate crime to be investigated as an act of domestic terrorism, so long as it's within the scopes and the reasonability of the law and really meets the purposes of what we're looking to do in terms of the investigation.

SANCHEZ: Law enforcement obviously is combing through data right now, trying to get a clearer picture when it comes to the profile of the shooter. I wonder how you think that information is going to be used on a national level for other jurisdictions.

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HARVIN: And some people may be home saying, this individual is dead. Why does it matter what the motivations are? It really does matter. At the federal level, the FBI has a lot of resources to start collecting and creating -- they have a database on these shooters. All of these shooters are unique. Their motivations are unique. Their tactics, techniques and procedures are unique. That gets promulgated, pushed down to the state and locals. And when I was running a Threat Assessment Center, right, many states have that. They have one in Minnesota; they actually have one in the state. And analysts can look at these trends and help houses of worship or soft targets start defending themselves against these things.

So to make it more realistic, if you see someone you hadn't seen in years coming up to the church and say, I want to reconnect, that may be suspicious. You have a resource to call that in to a Threat Assessment Center or a Behavioral Analysis Team and say, "Hey, we see this individual. We don't know who this person is. Can you look into this?" And so those are some of the resources that are out there. So, it really is important that we understand the full understanding of how this person became radicalized. There may be other people out there being radicalized through those same mechanisms as well, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Donell Harvin, always appreciate the time. Thanks for being with us.

HARVIN: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: We have much more on the shooting in Minneapolis ahead. We're also following upheaval at the CDC, multiple top officials resigning in protest as they warn the agency is being politicized and American lives are being put at risk.

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[14:16:08] SANCHEZ: Just a few minutes ago, the White House addressed the abrupt firing of the CDC Director. Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt said that Dr. Susan Monarez did not align with President Trump's agenda, and that a replacement would be soon announced. The doctor's ousting led that the resignation of four top CDC officials yesterday and attorneys for Monarez insist that President Trump had yet to properly fire her, claiming that she's been politically targeted. "When CDC Director Susan Monarez refused to rubber stamp unscientific reckless directives and fired dedicated health experts, she chose protecting the public over serving a political agenda."

HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. said that he would not comment on staffing, but said this moments ago in Texas.

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ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., UNITED STATES HEALTH & HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: The CDC is an agency that is very troubled for a very long time. And anybody who lived through the COVID pandemic and saw all of these bizarre recommendations that were not science-based, all the misinformation, there's a lot of trouble at CDC and it's going to require getting rid of some people over the long term in order for us to change the institutional culture and bring back pride and self- esteem and make that agency the stellar agency that it has always been.

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SANCHEZ: With us now is Dr. Paul Offit. He's a member of the FDA's Vaccine Advisory Committee and the Director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. Dr. Offit, thanks so much for joining us. I just want to let our viewers know, I could see your reaction as the HHS Secretary was speaking there. You were shaking your head. What's your response to what the secretary said?

DR. PAUL OFFIT, MEMBER, FDA VACCINE ADVISORY COMMITTEE: Well, when he said that there was trouble during the COVID pandemic because of misinformation or bad information, nobody provided more misinformation than him. And for the last 20 years, he's been an anti-vaccine propagandist. He's been a science denialist and conspiracy theorist. What did he say? He has said that the COVID vaccine is the deadliest vaccine ever made, which is wrong. So, he's been a tremendous propagator of misinformation and he is right. The CDC is a stellar organization, but now, it's being shredded by him. And so, it's not the stellar organization it was anymore because of him, because of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. That's why.

SANCHEZ: So Dr. Monarez clashed with Secretary Kennedy over vaccine policy, including this impending announcement that is an attempt to draw links between immunizations and autism, something that robust science has not yet proven that there is any link. Last week, we saw the American Academy of Pediatrics breaking from current CDC guidelines. They recommended COVID vaccines for infants and young kids. I wonder where you see all of these internal disputes heading?

OFFIT: Well, Dr. Monarez has a history of doing excellent science and evaluating excellent science. She's a rigorous scientist. That's not the kind of person Robert F. Kennedy Jr. wants. And as an example, he fired 17 people from the ACIP, who were excellent scientists and were giving us good advice, and replaced them with people who are far less than that and aren't giving us good advice. I mean, I worry about the CDC. I worry that what has been an institution that has made policy based on good data is now an institution that is going to be making policy based on Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s fixed, immutable science- resistant beliefs that vaccines cause problems that they don't cause.

SANCHEZ: What are you hearing from parents? I am curious about how they're feeling about vaccinating their kids given the sort of mixed messaging that they're getting.

OFFIT: I think parents are worried. I got a call the other day from a pediatrician who was seeing parents and he said to me, he was seeing the parents of a small child.

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The father was construction worker, the mother worked in the home, both were Trump Republicans. And the mother said, I'm worried. I'm worried whether or not I'm going to have vaccines for my children moving forward because she saw Robert F. Kennedy Jr. for what he is, which is a man on a mission, a zealot. He means it, he believes that vaccines have merely traded in infectious diseases for chronic diseases. That there are no vaccines that are beneficial. And he is now waging a war against vaccines. And I think there are many members of the public who see this, this is not a political issue as far as the public is concerned. Most parents value vaccines.

SANCHEZ: Yeah. I also want to get your thoughts on comments made by one of the key votes that secured Secretary Kennedy's confirmation. And that's Senator Bill Cassidy, who is a physician. And he posted on X about the CDC exodus. He wrote, "These high-profile departures will require oversight by the HELP Committee."

Remember at the time, Cassidy said he had reservations about Kennedy's past positions on vaccine safety. What would you say to the Senator now?

OFFIT: Senator Cassidy said that he was going to have an unprecedentedly close working relationship with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. So what happened? What happened was the day after RFK Jr. was confirmed, there was the first measles hospitalization in west Texas. And then, the epidemic took off. And so, we have probably about 5,000 cases of measles in this country this year, the biggest epidemic in this country in 33 years. Two children died, a healthy six-year-old and eight-year-old child died.

And what did Robert F. Kennedy Jr. do within weeks of that death, that first death? He was on national news saying the following: Measles vaccine kills people every year, which is false. Measles vaccine causes blindness and deafness, which is false. Right there, Senator Cassidy should have stood up, walked into President Trump's office and said, this is not the guy. He is giving false information in the midst of a pandemic that is killing people and we can't have him. That didn't happen.

SANCHEZ: I also want to get clarity on something that Secretary Kennedy said yesterday. Listen to this.

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KENNEDY JR.: I'm looking at kids as I walk through the airports today, as I walk down the street, and I see these kids that are just overburdened with mitochondrial challenges, with inflammation. You can tell from their faces, from their body movements, and from their lack of social connection. And I know that that's not how our children are supposed to look.

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SANCHEZ: Mitochondrial challenges. What is that?

OFFIT: One thing Robert F. Kennedy Jr. said that I completely agree with is he said, don't get your medical advice from me. That I agree with. But there he is giving medical advice, being able to see just walking in an airport, a child with a mitochondrial defect, amazing.

SANCHEZ: Yeah. Do you have any idea what that means?

OFFIT: No, I don't. He makes stuff up and that's what he is doing here.

SANCHEZ: Dr. Paul Offit, appreciate the expertise. Thanks for joining us.

OFFIT: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Up next, back to the latest in Minneapolis. We have messages of support pouring in, including from parents who've been through this uniquely American nightmare before, School shootings in Uvalde and at Sandy Hook. They'll be joining us in just moments.

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SANCHEZ: The trauma and pain from yesterday's school shooting tragically is all too familiar for so many families in the United States. And that was reflected by this sign at the growing memorial outside the Annunciation Catholic School. It reads, "We get it. With love, Uvalde." Joining us now live is Brett Cross. His son Uzi Garcia was one of the 19 children gunned down in the 2022 elementary school shooting in Uvalde, Texas. Also with us is Nicole Hockley. She's the mother of Dylan, a six-year-old who was one of 20 first graders killed at Sandy Hook Elementary School back in 2012. She's also the Co- Founder and CEO of Sandy Hook Promise, a group that's working to protect children from gun violence.

I appreciate you both sharing parts of your afternoon with us. And I imagine, Nicole, that this moment brings up a lot of memories for you. What is it like to watch another shooting targeting young kids? NICOLE HOCKLEY, SIX-YEAR-OLD DYLAN KILLED IN 2012 SANDY HOOK SHOOTING: It's awful. It tears your heart open again. It makes you nauseous and sick to your stomach because it's immediately triggering from my own personal experience and from both of my sons what they experienced. And it's also just -- you just want to hug the community because you know that they're just at the start of a journey that they'll be on for the rest of their life in terms of trying to answer questions and trying to find a way through this. And it's just something that you would never wish on anybody. And yet, more and more people are experiencing this, especially heartbreaking because we don't need to. It's so preventable.

SANCHEZ: Brett, you and I have spoken previously during other shootings like this one. I mean, what is it like for those who are fortunate to not have the --