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Interview With Fmr. Sen. Jeff Flake (R-AZ); Trump Administration Targets 'Left-Wing Extremism'; Drone Warfare Escalates in Ukraine. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired September 15, 2025 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: New details about the murder of Charlie Kirk, the FBI director revealing details of a note he says the suspect wrote before the shooting, as Vice President J.D. Vance is hosting the late activist's podcast. We will tell you what the V.P. said.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And a threat to cooperate, or else. President Trump says he will declare a national emergency again in Washington, D.C., if the city doesn't cooperate with his immigration crackdown, as Memphis braces for the arrival of the National Guard in that city.

And Russia swarming the skies with drones, and the Pentagon is playing catchup -- how the U.S. is scrambling to modernize the military.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SANCHEZ: We start this afternoon with Vice President J.D. Vance getting behind the microphone honoring Charlie Kirk on his radio show, also echoing President Trump's message targeting far left extremists in the wake of Kirk's death.

Let's start with new details that he's giving us about his meeting with Kirk's widow, Erika. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: She gave me a hug and she was heartbroken as, of course, she would be and she said that she loved him so much. And I said: "Erika, he loved you so much. He died way too young, but he died a happy man because of you, because of the family that you gave him, because of the home and the life that you guys had built together."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: From the personal to moments later the politics. Vance held the line on the White House messaging following this tragedy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VANCE: We have to talk about this incredibly destructive movement of left-wing extremism that has grown up over the last few years and I believe is part of the reason why Charlie was killed by an assassin's bullet. We're going to talk about how to dismantle that and how to bring real unity, real unity that can only come when we tell the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Putting the politics on hold for now, we're learning new details about the suspected shooter.

And CNN's Josh Campbell joins us now live, because, Josh, this detail coming from FBI Director Kash Patel about a note that was apparently destroyed, but then recovered. Apparently, this is an indicator potentially of the shooter's motive.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

And everything we're learning about this investigation, it appears to be a very strong case, evidentiary-wise. We're hearing from the FBI director this morning saying that authorities had found some indication that the suspect had written a note essentially saying that he wanted to harm Charlie Kirk.

We're also learning from the FBI that DNA that was found on items located near the firearm when it was recovered reportedly matched the DNA of the suspect. There's also obviously the surveillance footage that we have been reporting on. There is also the statements from the defendant's family, as well as his partner, who is cooperating with authorities.

So bottom line, Boris, even though the suspect himself is not cooperating with police, they're building this case and they certainly want to find out what that motive is, not only to help with this case, to help prevent other types of acts of violence like this. And it's something that certainly Charlie Kirk's family, his supporters and anyone in this country concerned about the rule of law certainly wants to know why this happened.

And that's what authorities are trying to get to the bottom of.

SANCHEZ: And, Josh, there is renewed scrutiny on the leadership at the FBI, specifically Director Patel. You're hearing from current and former law enforcement officials about things that they have seen regarding firings, regarding his actions.

What are they sharing with you?

CAMPBELL: Yes, this is so unusual.

And the theme that we're hearing from law enforcement sources is that this is something that typically FBI directors have not done. I was in the FBI. I served under three directors. You didn't see the FBI director out there essentially laying out in real time specific investigative facts of a case, because there's going to be a prosecution.

The Justice Department typically tries to avoid what they call pretrial publicity, which could actually hurt their case. But we have seen Kash Patel out there laying out all of this information. Interestingly, there is a political dynamic apparently in this investigation as well.

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And that is because Patel has come under scrutiny both for, for example, tweeting out that a suspect had been in custody and then having to backtrack on that. Take a listen here to some of what we have heard from him recently, where he is essentially touting his own abilities, while also heaping a lot of praise on the president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: I made an executive decision on investigative and operational need, and it turned out to be the right move. I even walked into the wooded area in the ravine, so I knew from my investigative experience what I could bring to the table.

Having the support of President Trump and the full support of the White House was what we needed for these resources to happen. I want to express my deep gratitude to President Trump, the vice president, and the entire White House, who have been so incredibly supportive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMPBELL: Now, one theory for this posture is that perhaps Patel is trying to counter some of those mistakes. He's faced a lot of criticism, even from the right, about the handling here.

So that has been unusual. The final point I will note, Boris, is, for those in law enforcement, there's this kind of trope in Hollywood that the FBI shows up on the scene and they take over an investigation. That's about 95 percent false, but there is that 5 percent where that does happen at times.

And I bring that up because here in this instance, where we're seeing FBI officials essentially touting the work that they did, despite the fact it was the father that actually turned in his son, that is something that could certainly frost the local law enforcement, who they are obviously critical to these things as well.

And you can imagine that some of those police officers who have been working this case from the beginning might see the FBI director parachuting in and then trying to take credit for this, something that might rub them the wrong way. So, a lot of interesting dynamics in this investigation, authorities plow ahead to try to get the public answers.

SANCHEZ: Josh Campbell in Los Angeles, thank you so much -- Brianna. KEILAR: We're joined by Adam Lankford, a professor of criminology at

the University of Alabama.

Thank you so much for being with us. You are hearing investigators pointing to gaming and dark Internet culture as a factor here. We heard the governor talk about that as well. As a criminologist, how do you see that operate as a factor in a crime like this?

ADAM LANKFORD, PROFESSOR OF CRIMINOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA: Yes.

Well, one of the interesting things is, for a long time, video games were blamed as if they made people want to engage in violence. The research I have done suggests it's more complicated than that. Typically, in cases of ideologically motivated killings, I have seen gaming that leads to extremism, participation in these kind of dark areas of the web, where people gain these extremist ideas.

And then what really stands out as an interesting finding is, there are a lot of people who are essentially satisfied to spew hatred online, to be verbally aggressive. What actually happens with these killers is they get bored of the online hatred, and then they want to take it in the real world.

So that's really kind of where the hatred differentiates them. So a lot of people have this kind of hate, but very few, fortunately, commit this type of violence.

KEILAR: There is a mental health evaluation that's pending. What is that process like and what are authorities looking for there?

LANKFORD: Sure.

Well of course, this individual is going to be assessed, probably assessed by defense attorneys, but potentially assessed by both sides, to really see if there was any deep psychological problem that kind of can help explain what goes on.

One of the things I found in prior research is, when you look at ideologically motivated targeted violence and people without that ideological motive, they're often pretty similar in terms of commonly having some degree of mental health issue, sometimes being suicidal or self-destructive, sometimes having childhood trauma or a crisis or other personal issues.

So I guess one of the things that's interesting is ideology is a part of this, but when we think about motive, there's absolutely a part of this that's a personal motive as well.

KEILAR: The suspect's roommate with whom the alleged shooter had a romantic relationship is transitioning from male to female. That is what Governor Cox has said. And the roommate, we should note, is cooperating with investigators, but the roommate's gender has sparked so much conversation. I know you're probably aware of this.

How are you viewing this topic and how should investigators be thinking about it? LANKFORD: I think the kind of simple explanation would be to say,

well, the attacker in this case was upset by Charlie Kirk's comments about transgender issues, that that would explain why Kirk was shot and the very moment he was shot, right, when it came to what he was saying.

And that would explain the motive of the perpetrator as well. I think it's probably more complicated than that. Certainly, there were potentially tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people who would consider the things Charlie Kirk said to be upsetting. Very few engage in violence for that reason.

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And the fact that this suspect apparently did this without even the knowledge of his roommate suggests, again, that it was not some sort of conspiratorial or collective effort, but rather the acts of a lone individual.

KEILAR: Yes, that was an interesting fact to learn about this, that the roommate was unaware.

Adam Lankford, really appreciate your insight. Thank you so much.

LANKFORD: Sure. Thank you.

KEILAR: Boris.

SANCHEZ: Bipartisan calls to calm rhetoric coming from both sides of the aisle, especially this weekend in "USA Today."

Republican and former Senator Jeff Flake and former Democratic Congresswoman Gabby Giffords teamed up to send a message. Giffords, of course, was a member of the House until she was shot in the head while attending a constituent meet-and-greet event in 2011.

Together, they urged the nation's leaders to show the way to stopping violent factionalism, adding -- quote -- "Irresponsible rhetoric or behavior from people in power has the potential to lead us down an even darker path."

Joining us now is one of the co-authors of the op-ed, former senator for Arizona, Jeff Flake.

Senator, thanks so much for being with us.

I wanted to get your thoughts on the rhetoric broadly, but there was one specific post that I saw over the weekend that blames Kirk's political opponents for his murder and calls for, I guess, the most extreme form of factionalism. It appears to be a call for secession.

This is Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene saying -- quote -- "There is nothing left to talk about with the left. They hate us. To be honest, I want a peaceful national divorce."

What do you make of those remarks? FMR. SEN. JEFF FLAKE (R-AZ): Well, I think that's -- those are the

kind of comments we need to avoid. And I hope that people in positions of authority, elected officials, in this case, the House, would not use such irresponsible rhetoric on the right or on the left.

And so that will only inflame people even further.

SANCHEZ: I wonder how you go about addressing what Utah Governor Spencer Cox describes as conflict entrepreneurs, these folks, whether lawmakers or activists or media figures that say these things in order to get a reaction because it gets attention and because it is incentivized with influence. How do you disincentivize that rhetoric?

FLAKE: Well, let me just say Governor Cox's comments throughout have been pitch-perfect, and he has -- this isn't a new issue for him. He's been going around the country with a theme of disagree better, knowing that we will have disagreements, but that we need to do it civilly.

So I thought that he was just right. You know, what we need to do, there are going to be those discordant voices out there who are trying to gin up things, conflict entrepreneurs. They're going to be there. What we need to do, those of us in positions, particularly those in elected office, need to drown those out or to condemn them and move on and use other rhetoric that is more enlightening and affirming.

So, I mean, we have got to come together here. We have seen too many of these tragedies. To say that it's just a problem of the left is incorrect. It's not just a problem of the left. It's a problem on both sides of the aisle.

SANCHEZ: I also wonder how much of this you attribute to individual responsibility, because those kinds of comments are profitable in part because there's a receptive audience for that kind of message.

So how should we think about the moral responsibility of our own discourse, especially if it's not coming from our leaders?

FLAKE: Well, that's what we need to do.

And when I speak on college campuses, which I unfortunately was on that same campus at Utah Valley University the day before the shooting, what I always tell college students is to reaffirm those elected officials who are doing the right thing, who are using the proper rhetoric, and to comment and to compliment people when they do things good in public office, because, believe me, having spent 18 years in elected office, you don't often hear that as an elected official.

And when you do, you tend to do better yourselves. So I think it's a responsibility of all of us. Certainly, those who are just listening and who have access to social media -- and that's everyone -- they need to reaffirm good rhetoric, good comments by elected officials and that goes a long way.

[13:15:04] SANCHEZ: How much responsibility do you put on the social media companies that benefit from getting likes and clicks and shares from this kind of material and contributing to a climate of demonization? Should these companies be held more accountable and how so?

FLAKE: Well, you would hope that they would do that on their own, to set industry standards.

I know there's been talk of that. There have been certain promises made that it will be done. I hope that that is how it's done. You don't want government intervening when it doesn't have to. But this cannot continue. These algorithms that just reaffirms people's biases just lends itself to this.

So, yes, I hope that the industry will come together and say this is something we need to tackle on our own.

SANCHEZ: Senator, you noted having spent a lot of time on college campuses after you left Congress. I wonder if what you have seen has made you hopeful about students that have the qualities that make good leaders for future generations of Americans?

FLAKE: Yes, you bet.

And that's why it's so reaffirming to me to go on college campuses. I do that frequently. And, yes, I'm very encouraged by what I see. I see less likelihood of college-age students to place the blame on the other side completely. We hear this rhetoric from elected officials often saying it's them, that this shooting, instead of attributing it to one individual, it's them.

It's the other side. It's our political opponents. It's those evil people over there, and that it's somehow coordinated. When irresponsible elected officials say those kind of things, it simply gins up that kind of attitude among the general public. And so where I place responsibility is among those who were in elected office who had the bully pulpit and who can set a better example, to disagree better and not to assume that the actions of one individual are somehow some coordinated conspiracy on the other side, because that just isn't the case.

SANCHEZ: Well, former Senator Jeff Flake, we appreciate your time and perspective. Thanks for joining us.

FLAKE: Thanks for having me.

Ahead this hour: a drone dilemma. Hear how the U.S. military is racing to catch up with the realities of modern warfare.

And the mayor of Memphis, Tennessee, contradicting President Trump, as the city braces for the arrival of National Guard troops, the city the latest target of Trump's crackdown on crime.

Plus, we're live in Puerto Rico, where Bad Bunny's historic residency is being credited for an economic boom across the island.

Those stories and much more coming your way.

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KEILAR: It has been exactly one month since the Alaska summit between President Trump and Russian President Putin aimed at ending the war in Ukraine, but now a Kremlin spokesman says there has been no progress towards setting up a trilateral meeting that would also involve Ukrainian leaders.

On the battlefield, Russia claims its troops are making further advances along several locations on the front lines. Ukrainian President Zelenskyy disagrees with that assessment, but acknowledged over the weekend that the battlefield situation remains difficult.

I'm joined now by our CNN military analyst retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton.

OK, so we're hearing some different stories about where things are on the battlefield, but tell us a little bit about that and the significance of what Russia is saying here.

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: So, basically, Brianna, what you're seeing is, this area right here -- of course, is the Donbass region. This is what Russia wants to capture. So their major advances are in these areas right here.

The Ukrainians have recaptured areas along this area, and they have done so throughout the course of this war. But when you go into the Donbass region specifically, this is the area where there's going to be a lot of -- where there already is actually a lot of fighting, Kostyantynivka.

And what they're trying to do here is, this area is the ring of fortifications that the Ukrainians have. What the Russians want to do is, they want to capture this area, and then that will then open up everything in this direction to the Russian forces that are massed here in the red area on this map.

So that would be a key goal for the Russians to do. They are not successful in doing that. And, in fact, right now, the Russian forces are basically tied up in areas along here, and they are not able to advance very far, although there is definitely fighting in Kostyantynivka and also in the town of Pokrovsk.

KEILAR: So they're quite locked up in there, right? And when you look at this war, this war, the hallmark of it, I think has really been the drones, right?

So talk to us a little bit about the drone technology and also how America is looking at this.

LEIGHTON: Yes, absolutely.

So the reason drones have, of course, become a big thing is because of the incursions in Poland and in Romania. In fact, the last incursion in Romania, the drone, the Russian drone flew for 50 minutes in Romanian territory, was not shot down, but that was a deliberate decision by the Romanians not to do that.

So, taking a look at the technology, these are the Shahed drones. These are pictures from Iran. The Shahed drone is a delta wing basically unmanned aircraft, and it is designed by the Iranians, made by the Iranians until they licensed the Russians to make them as well. So the Russians have these en masse, and you see how many are lined up here in the launcher.

And every time they invade, they use these drones to go after certain targets in Ukraine, it's basically a mass formation. Now, we responded at the beginning of the conflict by providing the Ukrainians with several drones, among them the Switchblade 600, which was an armed drone. It's basically a short-range drone, goes about 20 miles for about 40 minutes.

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And it's really a low-speed-type aircraft, but it's an unmanned aircraft that is designed to do things like kill tanks. But there's, of course, a lot of -- there are a lot of developments there. And the more modern aspect of this is what the Ukrainians are doing here. So this is basically a montage of a first-person-view drone that the Ukrainians are producing.

And they're fielding this on the front lines. It looks a bit kind -- like some of the drones that you see in hobby stores that you can buy fairly easily, fairly cheaply. But what they have been able to do is, they have been able to fuse intelligence, not only what the drone itself sees, but what they're also seeing through other means, satellite imagery.

They will be able to put all that together. Plus, when you look here, this Ukrainian soldier is pointing out a target over on the right-hand side of the screen. And what that's doing is, it's allowing the operator to then focus in and hone in on a specific area. It could be a tank. It could be an anti-aircraft weapon. All of those kinds of things become legitimate targets for these drones.

And the Ukrainians have developed drones that are actually quite effective. They are basically using -- in fact, the company is called Swarmer. And they're using swarm technology, in other words, swarming of drones, putting them together, so that they can actually be used in a key element.

So what do they do with these? Well, they do things like attack refineries all the way up in this place near St. Petersburg. That is the result of what the Russians have -- what the Ukrainians have been able to do to the Russians. They have also been able to go into an area right here, which is just to the northwest of St. Petersburg.

That's a major oil port. So they're destroying a lot of the oil refineries and the refining and production capability of the Russians using their drones and their missiles that the Ukrainians themselves are developing. And it's having a lot of effect there.

KEILAR: So far into Russia. And it's cheap and deadly. And these things are omnipresent. They're just everywhere.

LEIGHTON: Exactly, cheap, deadly. And that really is a form of asymmetric warfare that we need to respond to, because the U.S. is basically, as you implied earlier, behind in the way we do drone production and how we respond to this, because this is the modern form of warfare and we have to get ready for it.

KEILAR: Yes, that's the future.

Colonel, thanks for taking us through that. Really appreciate it.

And coming up: In a highly unusual move, the head of the FBI just revealed key details surrounding the investigation of Charlie Kirk's murder. We will discuss with a top Utah public safety official next.

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