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Conspiracy Theories About Charlie Kirk's Murder Explode Online; Poll Shows 51 Percent Of Republicans Say Country Is One Wrong Track; Trump Repeats False Claim That Jan. 6 Select Committee Deleted And Destroyed Evidence And Information; Architect Of Epstein's Sweetheart Deal Testifies On Capitol Hill; Confusion, Delays As RFK's Handpicked Vaccine Advisers Meet. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired September 19, 2025 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[13:32:28]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CO-ANCHOR OF "CNN NEWS CENTRAL": The assassination of Charlie Kirk has sparked an unprecedented burst of baseless conspiracy theories online, both on the left and the right. CNN's Marshall Cohen joins us now. He's tracking this all for us. Marshall, I've seen some of this stuff on my feed. I imagine it's quite rampant.

MARSHALL COHEN, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: It is getting really ugly, Boris. And the data analytics from PeakMetrics shared information with me that shows just how deep this is getting, two million posts in the first week after Charlie Kirk's death that specifically referenced conspiracy theories, believe it or not, that's actually double the amount that they saw in the first week after the assassination attempt against Donald Trump last year. One of the disinformation experts that I spoke to said that this is actually the worst he's ever seen.

There's a few ideas for why that might be. There, of course, was that very close up graphic viral video of the shooting that created a visceral reaction in so many of the people that saw it. Very painful to watch, just stirring those emotions. And also it came at a time when 71 percent of Americans, according to a Reuters poll, believed that our American society itself is broken. Put it all together, Boris, and that creates a situation where conspiracies can flourish.

SANCHEZ: What is being propagated on the left?

COHEN: Both sides here. We'll start with the left. There have been some truly unhinged claims that Donald Trump, get this, Donald Trump orchestrated this to distract the American public from the Jeffrey Epstein scandal. Obviously that's insane. And then other folks coming from the left liberal pundits have been trying to connect the suspect to far-right white supremacist groups that had been clashing with Charlie Kirk, even though there is mounting evidence that the suspect disliked Kirk's conservative views.

SANCHEZ: And how about on the right?

COHEN: Yeah, on that side, you've got folks like Steve Bannon and Laura Loomer, allies of the president, that have been pedaling the idea that even though the authorities have made very clear that they believe the suspect acted alone, they are claiming these Trump allies, that he was actually part of a "terror cell," that there's a broader conspiracy, a national conspiracy being covered up. Also on the right, some figures have been leaning very hard into anti-Semitic tropes to blame Israel, claiming that Israeli spies took out Kirk because he was starting to waiver from his longstanding support for the Jewish state.

Boris, one of the experts I spoke to said, none of this makes sense, obviously, but it doesn't need to make sense because on the internet, the incentives are totally backwards.

[13:35:00]

These podcasters, influencers and grifters need to churn out all these inflammatory takes, so that they can get more followers, keep their audience engaged, keep selling merch, and keep the money flowing.

SANCHEZ: Yeah. Always goes down to money. Marshall Cohen, thank you so much for bringing us that report. Brianna?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CO-ANCHOR OF "CNN NEWS CENTRAL": A new poll from the Associated Press, which was taken in the days following the killing of Charlie Kirk, shows Republicans are growing more pessimistic about the direction of the country. 51 percent now say the U.S. is on the wrong track, and that is a big 22 point shift since June. We're joined now by CNN's Senior Political Commentator, Adam Kinzinger. He's also a former Republican Congressman from Illinois who served on the January 6th Committee.

All right, Congressman, a lot has happened since June. Of course, yes, the Charlie Kirk assassination, but a lot of other events as well. Why do you think we're seeing this shift among Republicans since then?

ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it's pessimism generally. I think, look, the tariffs, we have not seen, really, or felt inflation coming down. The economy has basically stalled out, seemingly, and so I think all of that kind of comes to play. The summer is a tough time anyway. You have the Epstein file issue, where the president could obviously release them all today if he wanted to, but is trying to find reasons not to. And I think all of this kind of comes together in this narrative or in this feeling that people have of just like, stuff doesn't feel good, stuff doesn't feel right.

And I do think the Charlie Kirk murder certainly took a bite out of that right track direction because people just feel like, where are we heading? We see violence and so I think it all just accumulates to this.

KEILAR: And on the firing -- or not the firing, the suspension of Jimmy Kimmel, he's very much in limbo right now. It's being characterized as a firing certainly by President Trump, although it is not, we're waiting to see what happens. It was really interesting to hear Republican Senator Ted Cruz. He was saying that FCC Chair Brendan Carr sounded like a mafia boss with his threats against ABC affiliates and Disney. Let's play this, so you can hear it.

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SEN. TED CRUZ, (R-TX): He threatens it. He says, we can do this the easy way or we can do this the hard way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.

CRUZ (via telephone): And I got to say, that's right out of Goodfellas. I understand, Jimmy Kimmel has mocked me so many times I cannot count. The corporate media, they are dishonest. They are liars. I hate what Jimmy Kimmel said. I am thrilled that he was fired. But let me tell you, if the government gets in the business of saying --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What you can and can't say.

CRUZ (via telephone): -- if we don't like what you, the media, have said, we're going to ban you from the airwaves if you don't say what we like, that will end up bad for conservatives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: What's your reaction to that?

KINZINGER: Well, he is actually thinking long term. I mean, the idea that Republicans are going to be in charge of government from here to eternity, it's not true. We've seen history. Democrats will take over at some point. And what I think Ted Cruz is rightly worried about is this idea, OK, well, if Democrats take over and then they do exactly what we've done, what does that mean for stations that we like? The big thing is this. And anybody that's actually in the House or the Senate knows this, even if they don't want to say it.

The government is not in the licensing broadcaster business because they want to control content, because they want to keep things from saying meanie things about Donald Trump. It's simply to control spectrum, so that you don't have like two stations in one community trying to use the same spectrum. That's what it's about. And then of course, there's certain community standards like nudity or whatever that can be enforced. But the idea that all of a sudden now, Brendan Carr is just worried. He's worried about this.

By the way, I know Brendan Carr, he never expressed any of this when we were on the Energy and Commerce Committee, and I talked to him all the time. And then Donald Trump comes out and very openly says, I'm glad Kimmel got fired. He was mean to me. There's other people that are mean to me, and other people that are going to get fired. That just shows a thin-skinned guy that is just trying to use the levers of government. And unfortunately, corporate media, in some of these cases, has just simply acquiesced to it because they're concerned about the business side of this.

KEILAR: Yesterday, and I ask you this because you were on the committee, the January 6th Committee, President Trump repeated a claim that he has been making about the committee. Let's listen to this.

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DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Congressmen, who, when they got the information, they found out they were guilty and they deleted and destroyed all information, everything. You couldn't get any of it. Somebody's got to be held responsible. So Biden, what he did is they knew, I don't think he knew, but somebody knew. I don't think Biden had a clue about anything, if you want to know the truth.

[13:40:00]

But they gave a pardon to those Congress people. They gave a pardon. Those people are so guilty.

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KEILAR: What is your response to what he is alleging there, Congressman?

KINZINGER: Well, I hope Brendan Carr goes after his lies now because it's just absolute lies. I mean, first off, there's a January 6th Committee report that you can read. Secondly, unless they took it down, you can Google it on the internet and see every bit of supporting evidence and everything that we produced as a committee. It's on the internet, including all the transcripts and everything else. This was a made-up lie that he has no interest in finding out if it's true or not. He doesn't care. It's all about the messaging.

Let's also add on that the president has always said that he wanted 10,000 National Guard troops there on January 6th. Gosh, he really did. But Nancy Pelosi and the mayor didn't allow it. Well, Nancy Pelosi and the mayor have no charge of the National Guard as we're seeing in Washington, D.C. right now. The president of the United States controls the D.C. Guard. So he claims he requested the D.C. Guard, but then he didn't have the authority. But now he has the authority to use the D.C. Guard. It is lie after lie. And honestly, everybody knows that. And so, like even responding to it feels like you're just kind of yelling in the wind.

KEILAR: Congressman -- former Congressman Adam Kinzinger, thank you so much for being with us today. You bet. And next, the former U.S. attorney behind Jeffrey Epstein's controversial 2008 plea deal is testifying before the House Oversight Committee. A member of that committee will join us next, and we're going to ask her what has been shared so far?

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[13:46:17]

SANCHEZ: We are continuing to closely follow today's deposition of Alex Acosta, the former U.S. Attorney in South Florida, who struck that sweetheart plea deal with the late convicted sex predator Jeffrey Epstein back in 2008. He's voluntarily answering questions of the House Oversight Committee as part of its investigation into the Epstein files. We want to discuss with a member of the House Oversight Committee, Democratic Congresswoman Yassamin Ansari of Arizona joins us right now.

Congresswoman, thank you so much for being with us. Can you share what you've learned from Alex Acosta so far?

REP. YASSAMIN ANSARI, (D-AZ) OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE: I just stepped out of the transcribed interview with Alex Acosta. We'll be heading back in. We've had several hours of questioning where primarily we are trying to, first of all understand, why Alex Acosta struck such a sweetheart deal for Jeffrey Epstein? Why he helped Jeffrey Epstein evade the law? And I'm going to be quite honest with you, thus far, Alex Acosta does not seem to be a credible witness to me.

He is extremely evasive, very difficult to get straightforward answers out of him regarding what happened during this time, what he knew of the relationship between Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein? Why he only focused on a single state? Prosecution did not charge Jeffrey Epstein for federal crimes. And also, and I think most importantly, we asked him about whether or not he was aware that during that extremely light sentence of 18 months, of which Jeffrey Epstein only ended up serving 13 months, was Alex Acosta aware that Jeffrey Epstein went on to rape and abuse young girls at that exact time, which is something that I heard directly from one of those girls, now a woman, a couple of weeks ago during our closed-door testimony.

So, and he claims to not know anything about that. He is not showing any remorse. He does not seem to think that he did in fact strike a sweetheart deal. He thinks that justice was in fact served in this case. So I intend to go back in there with many more questions, but thus far, I'm -- I have more questions than I did when I walked into the room this morning.

SANCHEZ: When you say that he's being evasive, Congresswoman, is he pleading the Fifth? Can you give us a more sort of specific view of the way that he's trying to answer these questions, if at all?

ANSARI: Absolutely. Oversight Democrats are asking a lot of questions about, again, what -- what it -- looking back in hindsight, what does he think about the deal that was made, what he -- what sort of communication he may have gotten from either Donald Trump himself or from Jeffrey Epstein and his associates or wealthy individuals? He says a lot of things like, I don't remember. This was 20 years ago. I need to -- really, a lot of -- a lot of prefacing before getting into the questions, members have had to say multiple times to him, this is a yes or no question, being quite evasive.

The other part that's been notable to me as well is when you ask him questions about the details of the case. Like, for example, who was interviewed, what kind of contact happened at the time with the victims, the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein? He has repeatedly said that he does not know those details. That in his position, he was not briefed on the minutiae of the case, which is quite frankly, very hard to believe given the gravity of the case and given the fact that Jeffrey Epstein was of course such a high-profile individual at that time in our society. So, just quite evasive and frankly, not remorseful.

[13:50:00]

SANCHEZ: You mentioned, Congresswoman, that Oversight Democrats were putting forth some pressing questions. Chairman Comer predicted that the deposition would be very challenging for the former Trump labor secretary. I wonder if you get the sense that Republicans are also pressing him.

ANSARI: When I was in the room, there were a couple of Republican members sitting in the back. I was not -- we were going back and forth between Republican questions and Democratic questions. I don't think that they are pressing him in the same way. I think another really important line of questioning to be asked and requires a response is why did Donald Trump appoint somebody with zero experience, that is relevant to be the labor secretary in -- during his first administration? He -- these are the questions I intend to ask when I return to the room.

Why was he given that appointment? Why did he resign? What sort of public -- what sort of pressure did he feel regarding the Jeffrey Epstein case? I don't know if I'll get a clear response from him, but I think these are really important questions. And also, I want to remind folks that while Alex Acosta is a very important part of this investigation underway, he's also just a small part of it. There is a massive cover-up underway in real time right now. And something that we are working on is following the money. Why are the -- why did the DOJ just provide us with very redacted files, with financial transactions that we need to be aware of in order to get to the bottom of everything?

SANCHEZ: I just want to ask, because you did make the claim that the president is taking actions partly through deploying National Guard in Washington, D.C. and everything that goes with that. You've accused the administration of trying to distract from the ongoing investigation into Jeffrey Epstein to cover up the president's connection to his former friend in Palm Beach. Do you have specific evidence that the president committed wrongdoing as an associate of Epstein?

ANSARI: That's not what we're looking for. We want the unredacted full Epstein files. And Donald Trump has the power, of course, as President of the United States to release those files at any moment. He could do so today, and he refuses to do so. His Department of Justice is slow rolling providing these documents that have been officially subpoenaed by the Oversight Committee and Congress. So it's not a matter of whether Donald Trump is guilty in crimes related to Jeffrey Epstein, his White House is now covering up the truth of this even when they have been subpoenaed by the United States Congress. So that is the problem, that is the cover-up and the cover-up is a crime in and of itself.

SANCHEZ: Congresswoman Yassamin Ansari, we have to leave the conversation there. Appreciate you sharing your time and perspective.

ANSARI: Thank you for having me.

SANCHEZ: So the American Medical Association has just reacted to new vaccine recommendations from Secretary Robert Kennedy Jr.'s handpicked panel, its message next.

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[13:57:56]

KEILAR: Delays and confusion at the latest CDC meeting of a key Vaccine Advisory Committee. It's now meeting for a second day debating established immunizations. The members who are all handpicked by known vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. have chosen to push back a decision on the Hepatitis B shot for newborns. Yesterday, the same committee voted to recommend against using the combined measles, mumps, rubella, and chickenpox vaccine in children younger than four.

These votes come just days after ousted CDC Director Susan Monarez testified that Kennedy directed her to commit in advance to approving every committee recommendation "regardless of the scientific evidence." CNN's Medical Correspondent Meg Tirrell is at this meeting in Atlanta that is being so closely watched. Meg, what does the science say about the changes that they're making to the immunization schedule?

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, there is a lot of debate about that, and certainly the presentations coming from the CDC, the staff scientists there don't really jive with the interpretations of that science by this panel of handpicked advisers from Robert F. Kennedy Jr. And we should note, this sort of just came to a head in some discussion from a liaison to the vaccine committee from the American Medical Association, who told this vaccine committee just now, "We're concerned about how vaccine recommendations are being developed by this new panel."

She says data is being selectively used to justify specific conclusions rather than considering all of the available evidence. And that is something that you are hearing from a lot of folks, both as liaisons to the panel and also just external public health experts worried about how this panel is considering scientific evidence.

KEILAR: Meg, there is a big concern that the new guidance could impact what vaccines doctors offer and what insurers are going to cover.

TIRRELL: Yeah, absolutely. And so the vote yesterday for the measles, mumps, rubella and varicella or chickenpox vaccine, it doesn't change things extremely dramatically. Those vaccines will still be available, but now chickenpox is recommended to be given separately from the MMR vaccine for the first dose under the age of four.