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Jack Smith Insists Politics Played No Role in Trump Cases; How Scammers Are Stealing Millions Using Crypto ATMs; South Carolina Reports 5 More Measles Cases as Outbreak Grows. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired October 15, 2025 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Former Special Counsel Jack Smith broke his silence about investigating President Donald Trump yesterday, the same day that House Republican Jim Jordan called him to testify about his team's, quote, partisan and politically motivated prosecutions of President Trump. Before a crowd at the University College London, Smith doubled down that politics had nothing to do with his cases against Trump or anyone else.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACK SMITH, FORMER SPECIAL COUNSEL: The idea that politics played a role in who worked on that case or who got chosen is ludicrous. And Andrew, you know, and this is another thing that I think if you're not inside the U.S. Department of Justice, the idea that politics would play a role in big cases like this, it's absolutely ludicrous and it's totally contrary to my experience as a prosecutor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Joining us now is Dave Aronbert, a former state attorney for Palm Beach County, Florida. Dave, thanks so much for sharing part of your afternoon with us. I want to get your thoughts on what our senior legal analyst, Elie Honig, said about this.

He believes that Smith took actions to, quote, rush the case and get Donald Trump tried artificially, quickly so he could get him tried before the 2024 election. Do you agree?

DAVE ARONBERG, FORMER STATE ATTORNEY OF PALM BEACH COUNTY, FLORIDA: I disagree and I have a lot of respect for Elie Honig. You know, Jack Smith never even mentioned the election when he took the appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court and was thwarted by the court. The court stepped in and said, no, we're going to put a hold on the January 6th prosecution in Washington, D.C. Jack Smith never mentioned the election in any of his briefs. He stayed out of politics, but he did want this case to be tried expeditiously. That's what a prosecutor does. There is nothing in Jack Smith's background that shows that he's political in any way.

In fact, the criticism from the left has been that Merrick Garland was too timid and then waited too long to appoint an apolitical special prosecutor. So what was he supposed to do? I mean, he was supposed to wait it out and drag this on any further. I don't think Jack Smith should be criticized for going too quickly. I think Merrick Garland can be criticized for going too slowly.

SANCHEZ: What about this 165 page document that Smith filed in October of 2024, about a month before the election? He offered new details into his investigation. And then he also soon after released a nearly 2,000 page document, heavily redacted, just putting out information about the case close to the election.

You don't think that was inappropriate?

[15:35:00]

ARONBERG: I believe in transparency and so does Jack Smith. And it was the U.S. Supreme Court that took action to make sure that none of these trials would take place before the election and then gave President Trump unprecedented immunity. So the fact that Jack Smith put out stuff so that the public can have access to a case that was thwarted because of the U.S. Supreme Court's intervention, I don't think is inappropriate.

Is there anything to suggest that Jack Smith has acted politically before? Has he ever spoken about these cases? Remember, he could have gone out and spoken about the case. He could have tried to take the jury poll.

He said nothing. He was out there with his thermos in one hand and his Subway sandwich in the other hand saying nothing. So, no, I don't think it was inappropriate.

I think it's about transparency. When he knew that all this stuff would never go to trial because of the U.S. Supreme Court's intervention, which I'm sure he thought was inappropriate.

SANCHEZ: I'm leaning toward asking you for sourcing on the Subway sandwich portion of the remark, but I think there are more pressing matters. And that's the question of the House Judiciary Committee chairman, Jim Jordan, requesting this interview with Smith. We had a congressman earlier from California, Kevin Kiley, saying that previous special counsels have been brought before the Judiciary Committee to answer questions.

Do you anticipate that a hearing like this is going to happen?

ARONBERG: It could and perhaps it should. But be careful what you wish for, Mr. Jordan, because if you bring Jack Smith before the committee, then you're going to reopen old wounds. He can talk about the evidence in the case and why this was not a hoax.

This was not a politicized prosecution. And perhaps they think this is going to be a Robert Mueller situation when, sadly, Robert Mueller wasn't in the right state of mind to testify before Congress at the end of his investigation. But Jack Smith, as you saw from that interview with Andrew Weissman, is still at the top of his game.

So, yes, go ahead. Call him before you subpoena him. Put it on national TV. They're not going to like what he says.

SANCHEZ: And I also wanted to get your thoughts on Smith talking about career prosecutors at DOJ being asked to do things that they personally believe are wrong and that, in his words, because they're not political people, they're not going to do them. Are you anticipating an exodus of career Justice Department employees?

ARONBERG: I hope not. The justice system depends on these highly qualified, highly experienced career prosecutors for serious crimes being prosecuted by the DOJ, crimes that affect all of our national security and safety of our streets. And if you lose all those experienced prosecutors, then it's like a get out of jail free card for federal criminal defendants.

I hope that doesn't happen and we'll see. But Jack Smith is right to be concerned with the appointment of Lindsey Halligan, which didn't go to the proper channels and may result in the dismissal of the case against not just James Comey, but also perhaps Letitia James, because her appointment didn't seem to satisfy the rules, at least when it came to James Comey. And when it comes to Letitia James, it doesn't look like the evidence is sufficient to promote that case.

SANCHEZ: Dave Aronberg, always appreciate seeing you and getting some perspective. Thanks for being with us.

ARONBERG: Thanks for having me.

SANCHEZ: So this might look like an ordinary ATM, but this is a crypto machine, and apparently it's part of a scam that has gotten millions of dollars from Americans. Coming up, CNN is investigating the scammers that have been targeting innocent people, the warning signs you should look out for and why this is becoming increasingly common.

[15:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: President Trump's threat of new tariffs on China sparked a brief flash crash in the crypto market Friday. Bitcoin fell roughly 14 percent and Trump's meme coin was crushed, falling 63 percent. The mini crash wiped out about $19 billion in investments.

Crypto prices have since rebounded, but the dramatic moves come just as a scam in stealing money from Americans, telling them to turn their cash into crypto at ATMs. In just the first six months of the year, the scam has cost victims around $240 million. Our Kyung Lah has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no, no, no, no.

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You are watching a victim get scammed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're scamming you. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, they're not.

LAH (voice-over): One of thousands of Americans caught in a growing global crime spree that's no secret to police.

OFFICER: This is the police department.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't care.

LAH (voice-over): Or even store clerks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of people have been scammed recently.

LAH (voice-over): From Georgia --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody on the internet, some scam caller told him to do this.

LAH (voice-over): -- to Massachusetts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did they tell you to do?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Take $31,000.00 out and then put it into a Bitcoin.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh no.

LAH (voice-over): Texas --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know there's an elderly lady feeding thousands of dollars into the cryptocurrency machine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please, I have the bank on the phone and I'm in danger. This is Chase Bank.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ok, no you're not, ma'am.

LAH (voice-over): -- and Ohio.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much money have you already sent to them?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's $10,700.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesus Christ, oh man.

LAH (voice-over): I even talked to one of these scammers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to withdraw $9,500 from your account.

LAH (voice-over): And you'll see how he tried to steal ten grand.

LAH: This is a scam. You know it and I know it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am talking to the reporter?

LAH (voice-over): In all of these cases, these machines called crypto ATMs become the getaway car for the scammers who prey on victims like Gus Cason.

GUS CASON, SCAN VICTIM: After I stuffed in $100 bills, it would prompt you for everything that come up and I had him on the phone, too.

LAH: Had you ever seen this before?

CASON: Never been here before. Never been here after.

[15:45:00]

LAH (voice-over): Just outside Cedar Rapids, Iowa is where Gus Cason calls home. Age 71, a retired union worker and super fan of the band Nickelback.

Two years ago, as he was recovering from a stroke --

CASON: I got a phone call. Well, he told me he was president of the bank. I said, now you tell me. I want you to swear that you're not a scam. I swear I'm not a scam and all that. He convinced me. He was good. He was good.

I just had a stroke. I wasn't thinking right at all.

LAH (voice-over): The scammer told Gus that he would be arrested unless he withdrew $15,000 in cash and deposited it in that crypto ATM. It looks like a normal ATM, but a crypto ATM is different, put in cash and it converts it into cryptocurrency in an instant.

Victims like Gus have lost about $240 million so far this year, says the FBI, double the pace of last year.

CASON: I should have known better. I should have known better. I was stupid enough. I fell for it.

LAH (voice-over): The scammer took off with Gus' cash in the form of cryptocurrency. But the crypto ATM company also made money from the transaction.

Our investigation found the companies that operate crypto ATMs profit off the fees and markups, often at 20 to 30 percent that they charge on transactions, scam or legit.

And when police have seized the scammed cash out of the ATMs, the crypto ATM companies hit back hard in court to get that cash back, which is what happened to Gus Cason.

CHAD COLSTON, LINN COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE, IOWA: This is our evidence processing room.

LAH (voice-over): Major Chad Coltson and his deputies at the Linn County Sheriff's Office managed to recover the $15,000 in cash that Gus had put into that crypto ATM as evidence in a crime.

LAH: How confident were you that the victim would get that money back after you took it out of the machine?

COLSTON: So we were very confident.

LAH (voice-over): His confidence was short-lived. Bitcoin Depot, the company with the most crypto ATMs in the U.S. fought in court to get the $15,000 back.

The company points out its machines, like many crypto ATMs have multiple on screen warnings. Alerts of scams and requires that customers agree that they're only sending money to their own accounts. So in court, Bitcoin Depot won.

COLSTON: We ended up getting a communication from Bitcoin Depot. They said it was a glorious day, gentlemen, when can we come get our money, which was our victim's money.

A multi-million-dollar company is overjoyed that they get $15,000 and our victim is, you know, hurting. I mean, that's their life savings.

LAH (voice-over): Bitcoin Depot has used tough tactics to stop police from seizing money for evidence like threats to immediately litigate or suspending fee refunds in entire states if a single officer tries to seize cash.

LAH: Bitcoin Depot even sent an Amazon gift to mock one police department, a copy of the U.S. Constitution with a note calling the seizure of a scam victim's money a Fourth Amendment violation.

After we reached out to Bitcoin Depot about these messages to police, the company told us the messages were unacceptable and the employee responsible is no longer with Bitcoin Depot.

LAH: What do you think, Gus, that everybody seemed to get money, but you, who saved that money?

CASON: You know, Bitcoin had no business getting that money at all. I mean, really, when -- especially when it's a scam.

LAH: Do you think that's fair?

CASON: Well, hell no.

LAH (voice-over): Lawsuits from attorneys general accuse the top three crypto ATM firms of profiting from scams and not protecting customers.

Iowa's A.G., "More than half of all money taken in by Bitcoin Depot in Iowa over three years came from scams."

Washington, D.C.'s A.G., "At least 93 percent of deposits over several months from Athena Bitcoin machines came from scams."

Athena Bitcoin tells CNN it strongly disputes the allegations in the complaint and says it has strong safeguards against fraud.

Bitcoin Depot tells us, "We do not profit from scams, and the vast majority of our customers use our kiosks for lawful purposes." The company adds, "If it can't stop the transaction, it reviews every potential scam case individually for possible fee relief or refunds." But we spoke to nearly a dozen victims who were tricked by scammers while using Bitcoin Depot machines, and only one said she got a fee refund.

LAH: These scammers are so convincing that a lot of the victims actually say it's almost as if they're hypnotized. They are fully convinced that they're going to get in trouble if they don't insert all of this money into a crypto ATM.

We actually spoke to a scammer on the phone. He tried to steal $10,000 from me, and it wasn't until I told him that I was a news reporter that he hung up.

Kyung Lah, CNN, Las Vegas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KEILAR: Kyung Lah, thank you for that report.

[15:50:00]

SANCHEZ: Now to some of the other headlines we're watching this hour. Hundreds of workers at a NASA center in California are out of a job. The Jet Propulsion Laboratory is laying off some 550 employees across multiple areas. The facility's director says the layoffs are not related to the government shutdown but are a part of JPL's reorganization efforts.

The cuts follow the Trump administration proposal to cut some $6 billion from NASA's more than $24 billion budget.

Also, millions of Social Security recipients will have to wait to find out what's happening to their monthly checks in 2026. Once a year, people will find out how much their checks will be adjusted to account for inflation and today should have seen that announcement but, of course, the government shutdown has been delayed until October 24th.

The AARP and Senior Citizens League expect the cost of living adjustment to rise by roughly 2.7 percent. With the average check of about $2,008, it would mean an extra $54 a month.

And plans for President Trump's future presidential library running into some legal problems. A judge in Florida temporarily blocking the transfer of ownership involving the land for the site. A local activist filed a lawsuit arguing that Miami-Dade College, which owns the land, broke the law by voting to gift the property without giving the public reasonable notice.

An attorney for the college argued that the school did what was required.

Still ahead, more than 100 students under quarantine as a measles outbreak plagues two schools in South Carolina. The warning for parents and what we're learning about the latest cases when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: We have some news just in to CNN. The Israeli military says the Red Cross has received the coffins of two more deceased hostages. It's now in the process of handing them over to the Israeli military in Gaza.

We're also learning that Hamas's military wing says they have turned over the remains of all hostages they can access, insisting they would need special equipment to recover the rest. The ceasefire agreement required that all hostages, both living and deceased, be returned within 72 hours. There's now growing frustration within Israel that only seven sets of hostage remains have been returned so far.

Meantime, back in the United States, almost 140 unvaccinated children in South Carolina are quarantining as a measles outbreak is growing. State health officials have reported five more cases, bringing the total number this year to 16. Twelve of those are directly linked to this outbreak. Officials say the five new cases came after people were exposed to the virus in a school setting.

CNN medical correspondent Meg Tirrell joins us now. Meg, what can you tell us about this current outbreak?

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Boris, this is ongoing. 139 kids at these two schools are being excluded from school, asked to quarantine because they're thought to have been exposed to measles and they're not thought to have been vaccinated against measles.

As you noted, this is part of an ongoing outbreak of 12 cases centered in Spartanburg County in South Carolina, which is in the northern part of the state. And it's one of the counties that has the lowest vaccination rates among school-aged kids. At about 90 percent for the county, but if you actually look at these two schools, one of them, a charter school, has a vaccination rate of 17 percent of its students. And so that leaves a lot of students potentially vulnerable to getting measles.

Now, the state health department is trying to encourage vaccination and is also warning that because there seems to be undetected spread in the community, there could be more cases. Take a listen to what the state epidemiologist said today in a briefing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. LINDA BELL, DIRECTOR, SOUTH CAROLINA HEALTH PROGRAMS BRANCH: We want people to be aware that we have unrecognized transmission and evidence of transmission in the community so that exposures can be unexpected, can be unpredicted. And for this reason, we continue to encourage everyone now that we are seeing transmission in South Carolina that everyone should consult with their healthcare provider. Make sure that they're up-to-date on their measles vaccinations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TIRRELL: Now, they note that those five new cases that were added just in the past few days were from people who'd been exposed as a result of that school setting. But they note that it's actually a bit of a success story because those folks had been in quarantine and so they're not thought to have exposed other people. Still, though, there is this undetected community spread they suspect is happening and so they are warning folks and trying to get more measles vaccinations out into the community including through mobile health clinics, guys.

SANCHEZ: Meg, South Carolina not the only active measles outbreak right now in the United States, right?

TIRRELL: That's right. There are quite a few active measles outbreaks happening. Of course, we saw the giant outbreak in Texas earlier this year but there are other big outbreaks happening.

One on the border of Arizona and Utah that there's been 77 cases this year in Arizona, 56 in Utah, nine hospitalizations all together between those two states for measles. In Minnesota, there have also been 118 students who are in quarantine in that state because of potential measles exposures who are not thought to have been vaccinated. I'm told by the state health department that exclusion period for those kids ends today.

That state has 20 cases of measles and so you can see this bar chart. We are at the highest numbers of measles cases for the year to date, 2025, since before measles was declared eliminated in this country in the year 2000 -- guys.

SANCHEZ: Yes, an important story to keep an eye on. Meg Tirrell, thank you so much.

[16:00:00]

Before we hand things over to Kasie Hunt, we have a quick programming note for you.

Tonight on CNN, Kaitlan Collins is going to moderate "SHUT DOWN AMERICA," a CNN town hall featuring Senator Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the Congresswoman.

This on the 15th day of the shutdown and after yet another failed vote in the U.S. Senate, the ninth one. Again, that's live tonight at 9 p.m. Eastern, only on CNN.

"THE ARENA" with Kasie Hunt starts right now.

END