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Federal Workers Express Shutdown Concerns; Gov. Matt Meyer (D- DE) is Interviewed about an Alliance for Public Health; Joel Gold is Interviewed about A.I. Dangers. Aired 9:30-10a ET
Aired October 16, 2025 - 09:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[09:30:52]
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, reality is setting in for federal employees. Those who have to show up to work without being paid for it. There are millions of them, and often they are made to feel like political targets, even -- and faceless and nameless and even as they go to do their work without notoriety or recognition. Well, now some are taking their frustrations to social media to have their say. TikTok even.
CNN's Clare Duffy tracking this one.
Clare, what are you -- how pervasive is this? Like how many people are speaking out?
CLARE DUFFY, CNN TECH REPORTER: Well, yes, this is a big trend, a growing trend, especially as we see this budget fight largely play out on this broader scale among lawmakers on Capitol Hill. We're starting to see federal workers wanting to tell their own stories and give people a sense of the human impact of this shutdown.
There are now almost 10,000 posts on TikTok under the hashtag federal employees, as we've seen this trend grow. And it's everything from federal workers showing a day in the life of a furloughed federal employee, to people showing their grocery shopping trips as they're having to pull back on their spending and try to be conscious of how -- what they're buying for -- for food as they're not getting their paychecks.
We're also seeing people trying to address misconceptions around government work and what this shutdown means for government employees. I spoke with Ashton, who's an air traffic controller, who said that he's been answering a lot of questions that show up in his comments about why he can't just stop going to work as an air traffic controller.
I also spoke with Aubrey. She's a public health employee who works for the government. She said, "I really want people to see that federal workers are real people and their lives are being impacted. I felt like no one was hearing us or seeing us." So, you're getting a sense of just how TikTok is opening up this
window into the human impact of this really major news story. And, of course, there are some people who are also hoping to make a little extra money on TikTok as they have no timeline for when they'll be getting their next paycheck. But I think it really underscores the power of TikTok, not just as a news source where people can hear from journalists, like you or I, but also of real people who are impacted by these sorts of events.
BOLDUAN: I -- the element of like answering questions of -- in kind of like answering to misconceptions about the shutdown and what it means for federal workers I think is a fascinating trend that we've not seen with past shutdowns at all. It will be interesting how it develops.
It's good to see you, Clare. Thank you so much.
DUFFY: Thank you.
BOLDUAN: Sara.
SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, thank you.
More than a dozen Democratic governors pushing back against changes at America's top public health agencies. We'll talk with one of the lawmakers who is behind this alliance.
And from courtside to the catwalk, two WNBA stars hitting the runway for the Victoria's Secret fashion show.
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[09:37:51]
SIDNER: New this morning, 15 governors are coming together to launch a new initiative to safeguard public health. It is called the Governors Public Health Alliance, a bipartisan alliance aimed at addressing health threats across state lines and protecting the health of millions of Americans across the country.
Joining me now is one of those governors in that alliance, Governor Matt Meyer of Delaware.
Thank you so much for being here.
Give us a sense of why this was so imperative. What sparked this alliance?
GOV. MATT MEYER (D-DE): Good morning. It's great to be here.
The Governors Public Health Alliance is absolutely critical. My wife is an emergency room physician. Last night she was working in Core A (ph), treating the most sick people in our largest emergency room. The decision she's making and the science she's basing treatment on needs to be based on science and on expertise, not based on politics. There's too much politics coming out of RFK's CDC. And so governors have come together, as states should, to say, how do we protect our citizens. So, that's what we're doing. We're hoping it's bipartisan long term. And this is something that's ultimately going to protect the American people and I think even today is going to save lives.
SIDNER: With federal funding being stripped away from programs like WIC, I mean, what will this alliance do for citizens in these states with -- with this funding getting smaller and smaller? Do you have the money to try and help people?
MEYER: Well, listen, these are challenging times when our federal administration doesn't seem to mind taking away health insurance for millions of people, which, of course, spikes emergency room wait times, increases the line that you and I will see when we go with some critical injury or someone in our family goes, doesn't seem to mind that the -- the health guidance being issued is talking about random social media theories about Tylenol and vaccines that just aren't backed up by science.
So, the first thing we want to do is bring people together, not in a partizan way, but in an American way, to say, we have gotten to where we are based on tremendous, tremendous innovations in healthcare that have saved lives.
[09:40:03]
My father had cancer. Without being in America, I don't know if he would have survived. We want to make sure we restore that America, that sense of health care to say, hey, let's get experts around the table. Let's make sure we're leading the way to -- to so that doctors and medical practitioners, nurses, med techs have the best experts backing up the science that they're using in treating the residents of our respective states.
SIDNER: Can you give me a sense of how deeply Delaware has been hit by Donald Trump saying, look, he's going after specific programs and defunding specific programs in states that are run by Democratic governors. How has that hit Delaware?
MEYER: Well, listen, my goal as governor is to make sure it doesn't hit Delawareans, make sure it hits -- it hits me. We're trying to create what we say is a wall of protection around our state with this alliance, the public -- Governors Public Health Alliance. What we're trying to do is say, we're expanding the border. So, it's not just the border around the state of Delaware, but it's a number of states collaborating together to make sure we're protecting people so that the -- the egregious increases that are proposed in health insurance costs at a time when what I'm seeing across Delaware is families, working families, Democratic families, Republican families, urban, suburban, rural families who are struggling to make ends meet. It's not a time to dramatically increase health insurance costs. We're seeing families on Medicaid, American families, many of them working families, who are at threat because of the details of the regulation of losing their health insurance. And we have this guidance that I referenced, RFK guidance, which really, for the first time in my lifetime, for the first time probably in American history, is not really based on science. So, we need to make sure that physicians, that nurses, that those treating you and your loved ones are basing everything they do in the law and on science.
SIDNER: All right, Governor Matt Meyer, thank you so much for joining us this morning, live from Delaware.
John.
BERMAN: All right, it is being called an unregulated experiment on billions of people. A very real look at the very real question, is A.I. making you crazy?
And then a new episode of the CNN original series, "Tony Shalhoub Breaking Bread" airs Sunday. Here's a preview.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Speaking in foreign language).
TONY SHALHOUB, HOST, "TONY SHALHOUB BREAKING BREAD": Panisse are small discs made from chickpea flour and seasoned with sea salt, reminiscent of a potato chip, and served in paper cones.
Aha!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Voila!
And you can have your panisse with aioli. Aioli is a special mayonnaise we have here.
SHALHOUB: With garlic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Yes.
SHALHOUB: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then we -- and then we don't talk to each other anymore because we -- we will smell garlic.
SHALHOUB: We can only talk to each other, but not to others.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You like it?
SHALHOUB: Ah, that is so good.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, it's crispy outside. Very soft inside.
SHALHOUB: I can't stop eating these.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's part of the tradition.
SHALHOUB: I see. You have to eat --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you haven't eaten too many of them, you're not a true (INAUDIBLE).
SHALHOUB: If you're not feeling a little weird --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, simply (ph), you'll be done when you have too many in your stomach.
SHALHOUB: Yes, I'll know. I'm sure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: God, that looks so good. My stomach is grumbling.
Be sure to tune in. A new episode of "Tony Shalhoub Breaking Bread" premieres Sunday at 9:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific right here on CNN.
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[09:48:00]
BOLDUAN: A.I. psychosis, it's becoming more than just a trendy headline. It is now a real and growing concern as A.I. seamlessly is blending into more and more aspects of our lives. A brand new docuseries is taking a deep dive into the impact of the rapid rise of A.I., the collision of culture, technology and the human mind, and the dangers of it.
Take a look.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ChatGPT gaslight me into thinking I was digital Jesus.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are compelled to build this knowing full well that it could mean our destruction. And then there's something within our consciousness saying, (EXPLETIVE DELETED) we have to stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think of it like a constrictor snake. You know, it's just every breath you take, it just constricts a little bit more. Every little bit of information you give it, it constricts more around you.
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BOLDUAN: That is coming from Sean King O'Grady's new docuseries. It's called "Suspicious Minds." It's set to premiere tomorrow. And featured throughout are the authors of the groundbreaking book of the same name, "Suspicious Minds," written by brothers Ian and Joel Gold, who first brought to light the phenomenon known as "The Truman Show" delusion.
And Dr. Joel Gold is here with me now.
We were talking in the break. This is fascinating. And I will say, after watching the first couple episodes, fascinating and very scary.
You -- I think it was you who described it in the first episode as a live, unregulated experiment of billions of people.
Doctor, what is A.I. psychosis? How is it, I don't know, manifesting? And how real of a problem is this right now? DR. JOEL GOLD, CO-AUTHOR, "SUSPICIOUS MINDS: HOW CULTURE SHAPES MADNESS": We're trying to figure out how big a problem it is, but we're concerned. First, briefly, what is psychosis in general? It's not an illness unto itself. It's a series of symptoms. Delusions, these fixed false beliefs that people hold on to tenaciously despite evidence to the contrary, hallucinations, hearing voices, seeing things that aren't there and disorganized thought and speech. So, these can be found in any number of disorders, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, substance use, even some medical illnesses.
[09:50:02]
But what we've come to realize is now people who are interacting with artificial intelligence are developing these delusions in ways that we really don't understand well. And that's really concerning.
BOLDUAN: When it's all moving so fast, which is part of the problem.
One of the fascinating parts about this is how this project came about. It was first an exploration of the influence of social media on the mental health crisis. And then through a series of events became more of a focus on -- on this. This -- this, you know, this unfolding crisis involving A.I. How does this all relate to what you first coined the phrase of is "The Truman Show" delusion?
GOLD: A number of years ago my brother, Ian, a philosopher, and I wrote this book, "Suspicious Minds: How Culture Shapes Madness." And it started out as a book about these patients, "Truman Show" delusion patients, who believe that their lives were, in fact, reality television shows. There's always been an impact of technology on, not just the content of delusion, but even possibly inducing delusion.
And so, the book eventually became more about the social world and how the social world can shape the way that people express illness, and possibly even develop psychotic illness. And Sean approached us because he -- he liked the book and thought that it would be a really interesting docuseries. We were really excited to do that, along with the people at Wonder Mind, Mandy Teefey and Selena Gomez, who were executive producing the show. And initially it was about delusion more broadly. But then we had all these explosive headlines about artificial intelligence and psychosis.
BOLDUAN: Yes.
GOLD: So, we thought it would be a good idea to pivot and observe these experiences from people who are having psychotic episodes interacting with A.I.
BOLDUAN: And like in -- in like real time.
GOLD: Exactly. Exactly.
BOLDUAN: And that's the bit about -- Sean poses this question, is A.I. -- and says as you explore it, is, is A.I. making us crazy, or is it just feeding onto existing underlying vulnerabilities? Where do you land on this thing? GOLD: That is always the question, right? The issue here is,
artificial intelligence is a technology like none we have ever seen.
BOLDUAN: None. No.
GOLD: And ways that we can't really fully comprehend. And it's evolving at such a pace. Daily we hear new things about it. So, as people who believe that the social world does impact people actually becoming psychotic, the idea that A.I. is drastically, radically changing our social lives, it's hard for us not to really believe that it is going to have these impacts.
BOLDUAN: Yes.
GOLD: Some may be beneficial, but the risk factors are huge, and we need to study them.
BOLDUAN: You say, and this is sticking with me, you can't remember a time when you felt less confident about where the world will be in six months, let alone six years or 60 years, and just how fast this is moving. How do you protect against this? What is the responsibility of the tech companies with the products they're putting out?
GOLD: Again, such an important element. Tech companies need to take responsibility. If any other corporation releases a product, they're responsible for the potential dangers of that product. If a pharmaceutical company releases a drug, they have to test it for safety before the FDA is going to approve of it. But tech companies, who are motivated, like all companies, by profit, not our mental health, if they just release these A.I. products into society without really knowing what the impacts might be on our mental health, and possibly even inducing psychosis in some of it, us (ph), even if it's a small, small fraction, we're still talking about very large numbers of people. And so, they need to take responsibility, but only if we, as people and the government, kind of force them to, because I'm not so sure that they're going to do it of their own goodwill.
BOLDUAN: This is -- it's -- it's amazing that this conversation hasn't started already, but it's such an important thing that you're exploring in this and speaking out about.
Dr. Joe Gold, it's really great to meet you. Thank you so much.
The -- his book called "Suspicious Minds," that is out, of course. And "Suspicious Minds," a docuseries, as I mentioned, premieres worldwide tomorrow.
John.
BERMAN: All right, this morning, video of an encounter between a federal immigration agent and a man who says he's a U.S. citizen. The agent chases the 19-year-old man through a Chicago Walgreens before eventually tackling him outside. A woman then yells at the agent that the man on the ground is her brother-in-law, and that he is here legally.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's a citizen. He's a citizen. He's a citizen. He is a citizen. That's my brother-in-law.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get (EXPLETIVE DELETED) away from me. You don't know what's going on, so get the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's a citizen. He's a citizen.
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[09:55:00]
BERMAN: It all began earlier when agents crashed into an SUV while conducting an operation on Chicago's east side. The people in the SUV ran, and the chase led into the store. The teenager in the video was taken into custody and later released.
One person died, dozens more injured when a car bomb exploded outside a shopping center in Ecuador. Officials say an organized crime group planted the bomb in retaliation for the shutdown of an illegal mining operation. The explosion is being investigated as an act of terror.
Shifting gears in a big way. A new look for the 2025' Victoria's Secret fashion show. Big time athletes, including Olympic gold medalist Suni Lee and WNBA star Angel Reese. Don't know why I got tongue tied right there. Reese told "USA Today" --
BOLDUAN: How could you?
BERMAN: That she worked with a walking coach, but Lee said she did not do much to prepare so that she could walk the runway as her normal self.
BOLDUAN: I would totally ask for a walking coach. We need walking coaches, actually.
SIDNER: I just am worried about getting tongue tied.
BERMAN: What do you -- I mean, how do they -- what do they -- how do they coach you how to walk?
BOLDUAN: I know what you're trying to do here, and I'm not going to fall for it today.
(CROSS TALK)
SIDNER: All right, we're just going to end it here. Like you said, humina, humina, humina.
BERMAN: Yes, exactly.
BOLDUAN: Oh, is that what he was saying? I get it now.
SIDNER: "THE SITUATION ROOM," up next.
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