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Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-MD) is Interviewed about Bolton's Indictment; Polls on the NYC Mayoral Election; New York Mayoral Debate; Misty Copeland Takes Final Bow; Commander Overseeing U.S. Forces in Caribbean Retires. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired October 17, 2025 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Just moments ago we learned that former National Security Adviser John Bolton just arrived at the federal courthouse in Maryland. The former national security adviser, also ambassador to the United Nations, is there to surrender, we believe, on charges having to do with the retention of classified documents -- alleged retention of classified documents. Bolton says he is just the latest target of the president's, quote, "weaponizing" of the Justice Department.

With us now is Congressman Jamie Raskin, a Democrat from Maryland. Oh, I believe we just -- now we have the shot back. OK, we lost it. We have it back. I see your face.

The good news, Congressman, is you appear to be with us temporarily. If you can hear me, what is your reaction, Congressman, to these charges against Ambassador Bolton?

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Well, it seems like retention of classified documents is the go to charge for people who had once worked for Donald Trump, who have fallen out of favor with him. And, you know, apparently there are sloppy practices generally in the government that might affect a lot of people, including Donald Trump himself.

Remember, we still have not seen that Jack Smith report, which was all about Donald Trump deliberately taking and deliberately keeping all kinds of classified documents, then, you know, refusing to turn them over, fighting with the government about it and so on.

So, you know, it's hard to know what to say about this, other than there is no way that had Bolton not broken with Donald Trump, he would be facing these charges today. In other words, he's going to have a very strong claim of selective and vindictive prosecution because its only being brought because he said that Donald Trump was, you know, melting before Vladimir Putin, was constantly mixing government business with personal money making business and so on. I mean, he wrote a whole book saying, if Trump were to be elected again, the second term would be far worse than the first term. And so, there's no doubt that revenge is being exacted against him for those kinds of statements. BERMAN: Well, you say no way and no doubt, but it is our understanding

that in this case, having to do with Ambassador Bolton, this case is being brought and driven by career prosecutors who have been at this, or involved with this case, for some time, including during the Biden administration.

RASKIN: This is true. And perhaps it will survive, you know, motions to dismiss at the very beginning, you know. But, on the other hand, there were career prosecutors who had repeatedly refused to proceed with the exact same charges going back several years.

So, given that it needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, given the doctrine of lenity, which is that the law is to be construed in favor of criminal defendants rather than in favor of the government, you know, he's going to have some strong arguments going in.

But your -- your point is correct, we haven't seen all of the evidence yet. And apparently he may have been sloppy in some cases.

BERMAN: Yes. And again, just to talk about this case, what we have seen in the indictment is a claim here that might get to intent or at least knowledge that what you're doing might be questionable. This is in the indictment. "On or about July 23, 2018, Bolton sent individuals one and two a 24-page document which described information that Bolton learned while national security advisor. Less than three hours later, Bolton sent individuals one and two a follow-up message that stated, none of which we talk about. In response, individual one sent a message that stated, shhhhh."

Again, you were a lawyer and taught constitutional law. But what -- what kind of -- what does this evidence do potentially to this case?

RASKIN: So, in isolation, that just seems very damning. But we don't -- we don't have the full context, obviously. And I think that Bolton -- the strength of Bolton's argument is going to lie at the preliminary motion stage where they are moving as a matter of law to dismiss the whole indictment on the grounds that this had been considered several times before. It had been rejected by career prosecutors. And that this is clearly selective investigation and prosecution given, for example, what took place with the Signal chat group where there was a reporter actually there. There were people who definitely were exposed to that classified information but the Department of Justice didn't pursue it.

So, they're rolling the dice on the prosecution.

BERMAN: Right.

RASKIN: But, who knows, you know, how a judge is going to regard it, and who knows how a jury is going to study the evidence.

BERMAN: We will watch this case unfold. And again, Ambassador Bolton, believed to be at the courthouse as we speak.

I do want to ask you, this weekend there are expected to be thousands, tens of thousands, if not more people participating in these "No Kings" protests. Demonstrations planned across the country. I want you to listen to how Speaker Mike Johnson described them.

[08:35:03]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): They have a hate America rally that's scheduled for October 18th on the National Mall. It's all the pro- Hamas wing and the, you know, the Antifa people. They're all coming out. Some of the House Democrats are selling t-shirts for the event. And it's -- it's -- it's being told to us that they won't be able to reopen the government until after that rally, because they can't face their rabid base.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Now, you spoke in Philadelphia in the first "No Kings" rally. What's your response to the speaker?

RASKIN: Well, first of all, there are going to be millions of people out, not just tens of thousands or hundreds or thousands. Secondly, hate America rally is absurd. That's the exact opposite. People are going out because they love America and people want to stand up for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. You know, Frederick Douglass said that the limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of the people who are being victimized. And people just don't want to put up with it anymore.

I -- if I were him, I would not be talking about hate America when Donald Trump travels over to Egypt, talking to dictators and admiring their society and comparing us negatively to them, saying that, you know, America is a mess compared to their society. America is a free society, and we're going to hang on to our freedom.

BERMAN: Congressman Jamie Raskin, from Maryland, we do appreciate your time today. Thanks for bearing with us through the -- the technical glitches. Thank you.

Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: So, New Yorkers have less than three weeks to decide who they want to be their next mayor. The Democratic nominee, Zohran Mamdani, is leading former governor of New York. Andrew Cuomo is trying to fight to win voters back, now running as an independent. Last night, they faced off for the first debate of the general election.

So, what does it mean for the race and for the fight that we are seeing play out more broadly in the Democratic Party? CNN's Harry Enten running the numbers for you. He's here with us now.

Is there any sign that this race is tightening at all?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: No, there is no sign that the race is tightening at all, Kate Bolduan. If anything, Zohran Mamdani's lead is getting bigger, wider, larger. You look in September, in a three-way, Mamdani was at 45, Cuomo 15

points back, Curtis Sliwa, the Republican, at 17. Look at where we are now. Mamdani is actually up. He's up to 49 percent. Then you got Cuomo at 31 percent. So, a 15-point advantage back in September on the average. Now it is 18 points.

The bottom line is this, Andrew Cuomo needs something very big to change at this particular point. Unless, of course, he becomes Teddy Roosevelt overnight. Because if something doesn't change over the final two and a half weeks of this campaign, this race is pretty much over.

BOLDUAN: What is the historical kind of precedent for a comeback like this?

ENTEN: Yes, OK. So, I went back through the history books, Kate Bolduan. You know I love going through my spreadsheets more than anything else.

BOLDUAN: You do.

ENTEN: I love my girlfriend. I love my spreadsheets. I love cream soda.

What happens if we look at the historical spreadsheets? Look at this. Mamdani leads by 18 points right now. Look at the largest polling average miss since 1989. You know what it was? It was 11 points. You don't have to be a mathematical genius to know 11 points is less than 18 points.

So, if Andrew Cuomo is going to come back and win, either something like Curtis Sliwa has to drop out of the race, or you need a polling miss that is nearly twice as large as the largest miss on record. So, you're going to probably need something historically unprecedented for Andrew Cuomo to win this race if the polling average holds through Election Day.

BOLDUAN: There are lots of reasons why anyone picks one candidate over another, but what is some of what you're seeing why Mamdani's doing so well?

ENTEN: OK, why is Mamdani doing so well? Sometimes, Kate Bolduan, politics is simple. Life is never simple, but politics can be simple. And it simply comes down to this, Mamdani is the likable guy and Andrew Cuomo isn't. This is not a case of the lesser of two evils.

You look at the net favorable rating. Mamdani is at plus 15 points. Andrew Cuomo has been underwater in the average poll throughout this entire campaign at minus six points. Curtis Sliwa at minus 15 points. The bottom line is this, you know, for all the ideological arguments, and there are many to be made, if you watched that debate last night, as a neutral observer, you know I was talking with John Berman earlier today, and I think the general belief is that Zohran Mamdani, simply put, comes across as the nicer guy than Andrew Cuomo, the more likable guy. And at this particular point, the more likable guy looks very likely to win, which, to me, makes a lot of sense. BOLDUAN: All right, Harry Enten, thank you.

Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, one of the big issues candidates sparred over, how they would respond if President Trump sent the National Guard into New York City, which he has threatened to do.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CURTIS SLIWA (R), NEW YORK MAYORAL NOMINEE: If you were going to send the National Guard, you don't need to send them to New York City. There are other cities that could desperately use their help in dealing with their crime crisis.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE, MODERATOR: Thank -- thank you, Mr. Sliwa.

Mr. Mamdani, how would you respond?

ZOHRAN MAMDANI (D), NEW YORK MAYORAL NOMINEE: You know, I agree with Police Commissioner Tisch in that we do not need the National Guard here in New York City. We do not need them for the purpose of safety, because if it was safety that President Trump was so concerned about, he would send them to the eight out of ten states that have the highest levels of crime in this country.

[08:40:07]

But he won't because they're all run by Republicans.

What New Yorkers need is a mayor who can stand up to Donald Trump and actually deliver on that safety. When Donald Trump sent ICE agents on people in Los Angeles, Andrew Cuomo said that New Yorkers need not overreact. That is the furthest answer that New Yorkers are looking for. They are looking for someone who will lead, someone who will say that they will have their back, someone who will actually fight for the people of this city. And that's who I am because I'm not funded by the same donors that gave us Donald Trump's second term, which isn't something that Andrew Cuomo can say.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, Mr. Mamdani.

Mr. --

ANDREW CUOMO (I), NEW YORK MAYORAL NOMINEE: Yes. First, the answer in the subways is not more National Guard. I put the National Guard in the subways also. It's more NYPD is the answer.

But the National Guard is not -- he's not sending the National Guard to do any real function. It's control. It's power. He's trying to say these Democrats don't know how to run these cities, and it's a political gesture by sending in the National Guard. He has said, if the assemblymen is elected, he will take over New York. Forget the National Guard. (END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Joining us now is former New York City Mayor Bill De Blasio, who has endorsed Zohran Mamdani. Also with us this morning, CNN political commentator S.E. Cupp.

Thank you both for being here.

Mayor, you have a favorite, clearly. You have endorsed Mamdani. Mamdani was attacked for not having enough experience over and over and over again, mostly by the former governor. He also then returned the attack for not having integrity when he was talking about Mr. Cuomo. Did Mamdani deliver the way you had hoped he would?

BILL DE BLASIO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: A hundred percent. Sara, this was one of Andrew Cuomo's last chances to actually make this an election because Mamdani is running away -- running away with it right now. And here's the bottom line. Andrew Cuomo seemed like the grumpy old man all night. He was sour. He was bitter. And Mamdani was talking about things he would actually do for everyday New Yorkers, like freezing rent, free busses, better childcare.

Here's the thing. Cuomo could have said, I have a vision. He didn't do that. He just managed to sound entitled and bitter. And what I think Mamdani did very wisely would say, yes, you have a lot of experience. I'll give you that. But your experience included harassing 13 women, including sending seniors to their death in nursing homes during Covid.

And what was shocking was, every time either Sliwa, or the other candidate, or Mamdani said, you harassed 13 women, what do you have to say about it, Cuomo never apologized. He never showed empathy. He never showed concern. He said it was political charge.

People in New York City were listening for some heart and soul, and they didn't get it from Andrew Cuomo last night.

SIDNER: S.E., what did you see? Was there a defining moment in this debate, or did everyone sort of do what they needed to do on this stage? Because there's a lot of talk about how Sliwa did as well. He seemed to do -- do well in this debate too.

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. And not to mention, I'll agree with -- I'll agree with Bill, Andrew Cuomo also walked right into the harassment issue by naming Bill Clinton as his favorite president. I couldn't believe the sort of out of touch-ness on that issue. But there he was.

Yes, I think everyone did what they needed to do. I think Bill's right, Zohran Mamdani looked like the happy warrior. He landed some good lines against Andrew Cuomo on integrity and corruption and sexual harassment. But I also think Andrew Cuomo landed some good lines on Mamdani on inexperience. And Mamdani himself walked into a couple of inexperience issues as well. He had to admit he had just learned, like, about Jewish suffering. He had just learned about some issues involving cops. I think if you're 33 years old without a lot of experience, admitting you're learning stuff right now, when you want one of the biggest jobs in the country, wasn't great.

Both Mamdani and Cuomo kind of ignored Curtis Sliwa. And so that left Curtis Sliwa kind of put the two of them together. He kept tying Cuomo and Mamdani together, saying, one's the architect, the other's the apprentice. I think if you were interested in an alternative to Cuomo and Mamdani, Curtis Sliwa looked really good. He's very authentic. He's a lifelong New Yorker. He had some actual policy ideas. I thought he did really well.

And no offense to Harry, we love Harry Enten, but all the polls had Cuomo winning the primary. I don't know that this race has -- is as inevitable as the polls today suggest. And the last poll we got after Eric Adams dropped out showed Cuomo gained ten points. So, I'm looking for the next poll after this debate to see if this race has tightened at all.

SIDNER: It is a good job to wait and see, correct?

[08:45:01]

It's always a snapshot in time, right?

I did want to go back to something that you said, S.E., and talk about some of the issues.

Mamdani did go on Fox and broadly apologize to police for -- for calling them racist, wicked and corrupt. He also was asked about Gaza and particularly whether he thinks Hamas needs to lay down its arms. Let's take a look at that, because he was asked about that in the debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But you won't say that Hamas should lay down their arms and give up leadership in Gaza?

ZOHRAN MAMDANI (D), NEW YORK CITY MAYORAL NOMINEE: I don't really have opinions about the future of Hamas and Israel beyond the question of justice and safety. And the fact that anything has to abide by international law. And that applies to Hamas. That applies to the Israeli military. It applies to anyone you could ask me about.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you believe about Hamas and how lasting peace will be achieved?

MAMDANI: Of course I believe that they should lay down their arms. I'm proud to be one of the first elected officials in the state who called for a ceasefire. And calling for a ceasefire means seizing fire. That means all parties have to cease fire and put down their weapons.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Clearly, he did not say the same thing. And I'll go to you, S.E., first. Did he handle that well? Because on Fox he -- it was more -- a lot of people saw it as mealy mouthed, but he clarified during this debate. CUPP: Oh, a little. He did a little. This is a tough issue for him.

He's been massaging it over the past few months. Again, what he said about learning just recently about Jewish suffering and how his words were landing among Jews, which is a very large voting population in New York City, I think did not help him. If this is an issue that's important to you, I think you heard what you wanted to in this. If you are on the side of Palestinians, I think he did well for you. If you're on the side of Israel, I think he kind of didn't -- didn't help himself there.

But what we know from polling is that he's actually winning on this issue in New York -- New York City with voters. And it's not a top issue. Affordability and crime and housing, those are the top issues. So, I don't know that he helped himself, but I don't know that it was determinative.

SIDNER: Yes. I got to ask you, Mayor, what you think when it comes to why Democrats, many of them seem to be very afraid of Mamdani. We're not just hearing criticism from Republicans. We're having Democrats say, I don't -- they don't want to endorse. They don't want to touch him yet. Why do you think that is?

DE BLASIO: Sara, that's actually only a few Democrats at this point. In the beginning, I agree with you, right after the primary there were a certain number of people standing back. Bluntly, it's a few of the national Democrats, Chuck Schumer, Hakeem Jeffries, who I really think should get the message from the voters of New York City and get with Zohran Mamdani.

Look at Governor Hochul. She expressed concern in the beginning, and then she endorsed him energetically. And she said, this is someone I can work with. She also heard the voices of New Yorkers. People are saying, we need a change. This status quo is broken.

And one of the things in the polling, and I agree with S.E. entirely, don't ever rely on polling too much. We learned that lesson in 2016. But one of the things we are hearing loud and clear is New Yorkers think Mamdani understands them, is on their side, gets what their lives are like, especially on the question of affordability. That is the issue. The rent is too high. Everything is too difficult to pay for. He's winning because he relates to people. He connects with people. So, those Democrats who are standing aside are going to be left out in the cold.

And the other thing I'd like to say to the polling question, Zohran Mamdani has an incredible turnout machine. He has volunteers like I've never seen before. And what polling never captures is who is actually going to show up to vote. I guarantee you, in those days leading up to the election, doors are going to be knocked on, phone calls. People in New York City are going to be turned out to vote for Zohran because there's actually an incredibly devoted group of volunteers on his side.

SIDNER: All right, thank you, Mayor, and thank you to you, S.E., as well.

Over to you, John.

BERMAN: All right, next week American ballet dancer Misty Copeland will take her final bow with the American Ballet Theatre. She made history in 2015 as the first African American woman to be principal dancer there. Anderson Cooper shows how Copeland is opening doors for young dancers across the country.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MISTY COPELAND: With ballet, the reason I got into it was because of the joy that it brought me. This beautiful escape.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Ballet star Misty Copeland broke barriers as the first black female principal dancer with the American Ballet Theatre. Now she's working to make the artform more accessible for the next generation.

COPELAND: I started the Misty Copeland Foundation in 2021. Really with the idea of bringing dance to under-resourced, underserved communities.

I wouldn't be who I am if I hadn't been introduced to this incredible artform at a Boys and Girls Club.

[08:50:01]

I just felt like, we have to keep this going and give other children the same opportunity.

COOPER (voice over): Be Bold is a free after school ballet program offered at community centers in the Bronx and Harlem, serving more than 500 children of color ages five to 12.

COPELAND: It's really with the idea of introducing them to moving their bodies, the vocabulary of basic ballet technique, and live music. What's different about this from just your traditional ballet class was that this framework was made with black and brown children in mind.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The majority of other kids don't get to do this stuff like I do. I've learned how to respect myself and others, and I've learned to just be yourself.

COPELAND: It's not about creating professional dancers. That would be fantastic. But this is about creating future leaders.

There's so many incredible skills that you learn by being a part of dance, but ballet in particular. It's dedication, it's discipline, it's community, it's empathy.

COOPER (voice over): Misty's foundation recently expanded classes to include people over 50, demonstrating that ballet is truly for everyone.

COPELAND: Eventually, I want to have this program in community sites all over the United States, and maybe beyond. You know, we say we want to take over the world one plie at a time.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: People over 50. Imagine that.

All right, to learn more, go to cnn.com/heroes.

And on the subject of heroes.

SIDNER: Oh -- oh, OK.

BERMAN: Yes, you were named a hero.

SIDNER: John Berman, you said you weren't going to do it, but you did it. Thank you to the American Cancer Society, who is excellent and a great resource.

BERMAN: Hero.

SIDNER: Thank you, John.

All right, we are standing by this morning as former Trump National Security Advisor John Bolton is at federal court after being charged for improperly dealing with top secret documents. We will see what happens in court this morning and have a live report from there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:56:19]

BOLDUAN: New this morning, the military commander overseeing the Pentagon's escalating attacks on boats off Venezuela's coast, that -- he is retiring. This is barely a year into his role -- his time in that role. And one source tells CNN that tensions had been simmering for weeks between Admiral Alvin Holsey and Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, and that Hegseth did not believe the admiral was moving aggressively enough to take on and target alleged drug traffickers in the Caribbean. There have been at least six U.S. strikes on boats, alleged drug boats, in the Caribbean. The latest one disclosed just yesterday. Some of the crew on board that boat are believed to have survived that strike.

Also this week, President Trump confirmed that he is now authorizing the CIA to operate covertly inside of Venezuela, linked to all of this. But he did stop short of saying that the intent is regime change. Venezuela's president disagrees.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICOLAS MADURO, VENEZUELAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Never before had any previous government, since the CIA has existed, publicly said that it was sending the CIA to kill, to overthrow and to destroy countries.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Joining me right now is CNN's senior military analyst, retired Admiral James Stavridis, former supreme allied commander.

It's great to see you, Admiral.

In addition to being former NATO supreme allied commander, you also spent years with U.S. Southern Command. Years working on issues related to this region, and Venezuela included specifically.

On that admiral retiring, what do you make of it?

ADM. JAMES STAVRIDIS (RET.), CNN SENIOR MILITARY ANALYST: Very strange. Hard to come up with an analog. Closest I can come up with maybe 20 years ago, another admiral, Admiral Fox Fallon, stepped down from a role at U.S. Central Command because of disagreements with the administration about how to approach Iran. But extremely rare to see a combatant commander, particularly in the middle of military operations, walk away from the job.

Kate, I'd say three things could be at play here. Number one, he may have personal medical issues, family issues. He doesn't want to share them, but now is the right time for him to step away. Number two, we've seen Secretary Hegseth push out a lot of senior military leaders, including the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the former chief of naval operations. Perhaps he's been pushed out of the role but in a -- in a less public way. And third, and finally, the speculation I'm hearing is that he disagreed with the policy choices. And in that scenario, as a senior military officer, you essentially have the choice of executing the mission you're given or putting your stars on the table. Perhaps he did the latter. I don't know.

BOLDUAN: Yes, but important and impactful nonetheless.

This week also, Admiral, we learned that the president, as I mentioned just a moment ago, he authorized the CIA to conduct covert operations inside Venezuela. He also said that he's considering carrying out land operations on the country. Everyone seems to agree, and for good reason, cracking down on drug trafficking is a good thing. But what happens if he moves in like he is suggesting?

STAVRIDIS: Let's start with the forces that are on station right now. They are significant. There are six to eight big warships down there, a couple of thousand marines and sailors, dozens of those Tomahawk missiles that Vladimir Putin rightfully is quite worried about. And, oh, by the way, a squadron or two of F-35 Lightnings, the fifth- generation fighters based out of Puerto Rico.

[09:00:05]

That's a lot of firepower, Kate. It's more than you need, frankly.