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The Shutdown Fits a Larger Pattern; Rep. Pete Sessions (R-TX) is Interviewed about the Shutdown; Trump Embraces A.I.; Trump Meets with NATO Chief on Ukraine; Andre Dickens is Interviewed about the Atlanta Airport Incident. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired October 22, 2025 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Chief data analyst Harry Enten is here.

How little is happening?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: Yes, you know, I'm going to quote the great scholar, Billy Preston, nothing from nothing leaves nothing.

What are we talking about here?

Well, nothing is getting done in Congress. But the truth is, if you look back at congresses at this point in a presidency, we were already dealing with an historically unpopular Congress anyway. At this point in a presidency, we have only got in this -- get this, just 36 -- just 36 laws actually signed, 36 bills signed into law. That is the fewest, the fewest at this point in any presidency dating back since 1953. Way less than the median of 87.

And so the bottom line is, nothing's getting done in Congress right now, but nothing was getting done in Congress right now, so what difference does it make anyway I think in the minds of a lot of the American people.

BERMAN: Put that in some historical perspective for us, Harry.

ENTEN: OK. So, you know, we see this right now. This is nothing unusual because the bottom line is bills and resolutions passed throughout full congresses. You go back basically since 1973, the fewest, 274. That was the last Congress.

And get this. I went back even further. I jumped in that Delorean time machine. You could go back all the way to the Civil War and you wouldn't find a congress that was less productive than the last one. The median, 478. You don't have to be a mathematical scholar to know that 274 is way less than 478. We're talking about 200 fewer laws passed and signed than the median.

BERMAN: Not your grandfather's congress, you might say.

ENTEN: That's exactly right. BERMAN: All right, so the shutdown, as it goes on, the lingering

question is, who -- the political question, because there are real people being hurt here.

ENTEN: Yes.

BERMAN: But the political question is, who is getting blamed?

ENTEN: Who is getting blamed? You know, we speak about the fact that this Congress, not necessarily doing so much, obviously, that might lay at the hands of that Republican House. But here's the -- here's the nugget to take away. Take Donald Trump out of the equation. Who is to blame for the shutdown? Here it is, 50 percent Republicans, leading that 43 percent Democrats. This is the rare poll where you don't want to lead. And in this particular case, the GOP in Congress is leading the blame game.

And more than that, I will note, the one big thing that they passed, John, was, of course, the big, beautiful bill. And that remains under water at this point by more than ten points. I was just looking at the average of polls. So, the bottom line is, they're winning the blame game, but they're losing on the bill that, of course, they're essentially betting their stakes on in this Congress of actually getting something done.

BERMAN: Another way of saying this is, what they're not doing is unpopular. But what they did is also unpopular.

ENTEN: That's exactly right. No matter where you turn, no matter which way the world turns, everything this GOP Congress has done has basically been unpopular. Whether they're doing it or not.

BERMAN: Like sands through the hourglass. Although I guess that was "Days of Our Lives," not "As the World Turns."

Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: But one of the best soap operas of all time.

Let's go to this.

No matter who is to blame, the shutdown remains. Joining me right now is Republican Congressman Pete Sessions of Texas, who will be joining me on camera very soon.

There you are, Congressman. It just took a minute to get the cameras to do what we need them to do.

I appreciate you being here.

So, CNN has new reporting of Republicans now on the record to say that the shutdown does not and will not end until President Trump gets involved. CNN has quotes from Tommy Tuberville saying, "if he gets involved, he can move it." Jeff Van Drew saying, "we absolutely need him. He has the strength and skills to get it done." And Senator Jim Justice saying, "at the end of the day, to move this needle and get this thing off the bubble, President Trump will have to get involved."

Do you agree with them?

REP. PETE SESSIONS (R-TX): Well, I would say that he's one-third of the equation. We have the -- the House, the Senate and the president. And as, Kate, as we remember back in 2013, this whole incentive for the Affordable Care Act was started during the shutdown by President Obama. He had a signing bonus. He's the one that said, we're going to add something that had not been through the legislative process, but I want that now. And Republicans said, we have to open up the government. And so, we consented, in essence, by what we did.

So now, politically, what was won has now been lost. But that in -- that means the president's got to want to sign it, too. And I think the president's been busy doing a lot of things. And it's now time that we focus on exactly this activity, reopening the government.

BOLDUAN: Do you agree, though, that -- that this things not going to go anywhere until Trump gets more involved than he is?

SESSIONS: No. I -- what I think is, is that the signals that come to at least the speaker come directly from the president. And at some point there's got to be a bottom line where you're going to compromise, where you're going to find common ground, where you're going to start talking with each other in terms of resolving this. And this is that long process of why, from the very beginning, you have to be able to talk with each other and avoid public spats, oppose getting each other's feelings hurt.

[08:35:08]

The president, of course, has a strong idea, but I don't know that he's focused on it to be what he calls the art of the deal yet. It's now time.

BOLDUAN: Yes, I think it's now time. I think a lot of federal workers would agree as well.

Let me ask you this about the speaker, Mike Johnson. He's taken a lot of heat for, at this point, not swearing in the congresswoman-elect, a Democratic congresswoman-elect, Adelita Grijalva. It's now been a month, 28, 29 days since that special election. The attorney general of Arizona is now suing to try to force that she be sworn in. I want to play for you what the attorney -- the attorney general of Arizona told Erin Burnett last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRIS MAYES (D), ARIZONA ATTORNEY GENERAL: She was duly elected by the people of Arizona, and we now have 813,000 Arizonans who are being taxed without representation in our state because Mike Johnson refuses to swear her in. So, you know, we didn't want to have to file this lawsuit, but it's been four weeks now, Erin, since she was elected. Four weeks where she has not been able to do her job, serve her constituents.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Congressman, should Adelita Grijalva be sworn in right now?

SESSIONS: What happens is, by -- not just by precedent, but what happens is, they are presented to the body. And the body accepts this, not by a vote, but they accept this when we are in regular order. And we are not in regular order right now. And the sergeant at arms still has that office open. People who are ready, willing and able to help.

The bottom line is, this is political. Would I want it if I were on the other side? Yes, I would. But the speaker of the House has made a determination that we will not be open for regular order. We're open for pro forma. And I don't know that there is anyone that has ever been brought in on a pro forma basis.

So, I think he has his right, not only to say that it will be done to present her to the body, and as soon as we end this shutdown, that will be one of the first orders of business.

BOLDUAN: I mean, you're being -- you are being more candid and I will say clear-eyed and realistic than I think a lot of Republicans have been about it, because you would want to be sworn in, and you would want to serve your constituents had you been elected and waiting four weeks, you know, isn't acceptable, no matter if --

SESSIONS: Well, that's true. But there also is precedent to say that the House would be in -- if it happened in the middle of August, we would not accept that. We would not accept that because they'd have to wait --

BOLDUAN: Right, but it was -- it was supposed to be a one-week recess, and he has repeatedly extended it. He could bring the House back in. He could if he wanted to.

SESSIONS: He -- well, any speaker can -- has those powers. What I'm saying is, the facts of the case is, we're in pro forma. We're not in regular order. Until every member is called back, which is a standard that I can also sustain, I think the speaker is well within, not only his rights, but the precedent of the House I think would stand.

BOLDUAN: Noteworthy that Congressman Pete Sessions is standing in the halls of Congress right now. So, if regular order was called, you're there. You could be ready to work.

It's good to see you, Congressman. Thanks for coming in.

SESSIONS: That -- that would be great. Thank you very much.

BOLDUAN: That would be great. Understatement of the year.

Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, ahead, President Trump is increasingly embracing A.I. to mock not only political opponents, but everyday Americans who oppose him. The latest is that A.I.-generated video that most of the world saw portraying Trump as a crowned fighter pilot dumping what looks like feces on American citizens peacefully protesting him and his policies.

CNN's Tom Foreman has more on how the president is using fake videos as part of a political strategy now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KENNY LOGGINS, MUSICIAN (singing): I went to the danger zone.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): With the unauthorized use of a popular song and an unabashed taste for trolling, President Donald Trump has once again posted an A.I.-generated video ridiculing millions of Americans who oppose him and energizing those on his side.

GREG GUTFELD, FOX NEWS: Something as absurd as protesting kings in a country without kings doesn't merit anything more than a meme with poop landing on protesters.

FOREMAN (voice over): Fake videos of former President Barack Obama being arrested, Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries as a mariachi, and a dark promise to keep firing federal workers as the government shutdown grinds on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE, MUSICIAN (singing): Father time has come.

FOREMAN (voice over): The White House shrugs off the parade of presidential propaganda as just good fun.

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: He likes to share memes. He likes to share videos. He likes to repost things that he sees other people post on social media as well.

[08:40:01]

And I think it's quite refreshing that we have a president who is so open and honest.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will make America great again.

FOREMAN (voice over): Trump's campaign to retake the White House last year sizzled with A.I. created images, including this one claiming mega pop star Taylor Swift endorsed him, although she actually ended up backing Democrat Kamala Harris. And these after Trump lied about Haitian immigrants in a debate.

TRUMP: They're eating the dogs, the people that came in. They're eating the cats.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE, MUSICIAN (Singing): Trump gods (ph) are shining bright, golden future a brand-new life.

FOREMAN (voice over): As president, Trump posted this A.I. video months ago suggesting he would turn war-torn Gaza into a beach resort. And this one of him dancing with billionaire Elon Musk, and more, and more, and more.

"The New York Times" found Trump has posted A.I.-generated images or videos at least 62 times on his Truth Social account since late 2022.

FOREMAN: It's all counterfeit. Much of it patently untrue. Yet top Republicans show virtually no qualms with Trump's fakery.

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): He is using satire to make a point. He is not calling for the. Murder of his political opponents. And that's what these people are doing.

FOREMAN (voice over): Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BOLDUAN: Tom Foreman, thank you so much for that.

Ahead for us, we're hearing from the officers who helped stop a possible tragedy inside of one of the world's busiest airports. How they managed to stop a man who threatened to, quote, "shoot up" the Atlanta airport.

And just incredible video from an operating room. Take a look at this. A woman playing the clarinet while undergoing surgery.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:46:13]

SIDNER: Today, President Trump is set to host the NATO's secretary general this morning. We are hearing from Ukrainian President Zelenskyy, who says President Trump's call for Ukraine and Russia to stop at the current front lines is a good compromise.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: After our conversation you saw messages, public messages from Trump. He proposed, stay where we stay and begin conversation. I think this -- that all is good compromise, but I'm not sure that Putin will support. And I said it to president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Russia, meanwhile, launched a deadly wide scale air assault on Ukraine overnight. Amid those hit, a kindergarten in Kharkiv, where firefighters there shown rescuing some of those children. Also hit, major cities like Kyiv and Ukraine's energy infrastructure, as well.

And this morning, Vladimir Putin, overseeing a training exercise for nuclear forces in Russia. Timing is obviously everything.

Joining us now is CNN global affairs analyst Brett McGurk and also retired Army Brigadier General Steve Anderson.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.

Brett, first, I'd like to get your response to what you make of Zelenskyy's comments where he says, look, this is a good compromise, to stop where they are right now to start these ceasefire negotiations.

BRETT MCGURK, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, Sara, it's great to be here.

So, once again, Ukraine and President Zelenskyy is accepting a proposal from the Americans, freeze the lines. Let's have a ceasefire. He's clearly accepting that. And what is Vladimir Putin doing? He is overseeing nuclear exercises, including the test of a -- of a --the Yars missile, which can fly 7,000 miles.

Putin does not do anything by chance. He is signaling that he is prepared to escalate this conflict. I think that is obviously what he's doing.

A couple of things going on, though. Sara. EU leaders will get together tomorrow to consider a proposal to basically use Russian assets that are frozen in European banks as collateral for a loan to Ukraine. That's a very important initiative. I think something the United States can get behind to put more pressure on Russia. The president, of course, has called on the EU to do more. That's good. And the president is meeting today with the NATO secretary general.

Bottom line, the president and the U.S. are trying to get the pieces together for a ceasefire to stop this war, but that's going to require some deliberate pressure on the Russians. And, once again, Putin is saying he's not ready to do that. So, that's where we stand. It's where we've been for the last nine or 10 months.

SIDNER: Brigadier General, you know, just a few days ago there was what appeared to be the Trump administration leaning towards giving long range missiles to Ukraine. Those tomahawk missiles. That all changed after a phone call with Putin and Trump. Do you think that Putin is playing Trump here?

BRIG. GEN. STEVE ANDERSON, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Absolutely, Sara. I mean he did it a couple of months ago in Alaska and he's doing it again. And I don't understand his strange hold that he's got on President Trump. I mean, you know, Vladimir Putin is essentially a paper tiger. Their military is not that effective. I mean a snail that had left the Ukraine east border three and a half years ago would be in Poland by now. I mean that's how ineffective his military is.

You know, the United States needs to get behind Zelenskyy, get behind Ukraine, who's fighting for all of us. And there's really three specific things I think that I would recommend to President Trump.

Number one, we need to give him the Tomahawks they've asked for. Number two, we need to get American and NATO contractors approved for deployment within Ukraine so they can help maintain some of the equipment that we've given them. And the third thing is, we need to get Ukrainian drones manufactured in the United States. We need to use our manufacturing capability.

[08:50:02]

President Trump wants to increase manufacturing in the United States. This is a great way to do it. Leverage the technology that the Ukrainians are using. I mean every two weeks the technology is turning over. They're now changing protocols mid-flight during -- in flying drones. That's how rapidly they're changing. So, we need to do those things, get behind Ukraine right away.

SIDNER: Brett, I'm curious what you think of something President Zelenskyy also assessed, saying that now that the threat of -- of Trump approving those Tomahawk missiles seems to be gone, that Putin's really just lost interest in diplomacy. Is he right?

MCGURK: Well, I think you continue to dangle the fact that we might provide Tomahawks. But look, the United States is providing a lot of material through NATO. It's getting into Ukraine. I think -- I have called for a long time, you've got to put more pressure on the Russians. Diplomacy without leverage and power is like music without instruments. That's a -- that's a saying in diplomacy. Very true. Especially with the Russians. I've negotiated with them. So, I very much agree, you got to have a deliberate approach here. You got to put pressure on the Russians.

But I think it's clear to -- it's good to have a very clear position, freeze the lines where they are and get behind that position and stick to it and do not have a summit in Budapest, which is -- might be being planted. The president rightfully said yesterday, right now that's on hold unless you know you're going to come to an agreement in that summit.

So, look, I think you got to put the pressure on, economic, military. The general is right, the Russians are under tremendous pressure. They've taken over a million casualties in this war. Putin's war of choice. He is suffering badly. He cannot sustain it forever. But the Ukrainians have a hard time sustaining it as well. So, we got to be behind them, put leverage behind the diplomacy, try to get that ceasefire. That's the only play. And you've got to keep working at it.

SIDNER: Brigadier, I know that we also heard from Pete Hegseth, the defense secretary, not too long ago, talking to NATO defense ministers in a meeting and saying, look, you can't achieve peace if you just use strong words and wave your finger. You have to have strong and real capabilities that adversaries respect. So, what happened that signaling to NATO sounded like the United States was behind giving some real capabilities. What do you think happened?

ANDERSON: Well, I think we're seeing schizophrenic diplomacy. I mean, it changes every day, every week. And it's really, really confusing.

NATO is going to start figuring out that the United States is not a reliable partner. And they are starting to step up their game. And it's sad because the NATO alliance, for 80 years, has kept this world safe, has empowered incredible economic growth in the United States and all over the world. And -- but, you know, the United States is not proving to be a reliable partner. And NATO is going to step up their game and they're going to fill the void.

SIDNER: Brett McGurk, Brigadier General, thank you both so much for coming in and talking through this with us this morning.

MCGURK: Thanks, Sara.

SIDNER: John.

BERMAN: All right, new this morning, officials in Ireland say anti- immigration protesters burned a police van near a building housing asylum seekers in Dublin, a day after a man was arrested for an attack on a young girl nearby. More than 500 people were reportedly involved in the protest. They also attacked officers there known as the Garda.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL MCNULTY, GARDA CHIEF SUPERINTENDENT: This was not a peaceful protest. The violence exhibited was totally an attempt to intimidate and injure. During the evening, there were sustained attacks on Garda cordons, which included physical violence, bricks thrown and fireworks discharged at Garda members and the arson of a Garda van.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: The protest came after police say a man had been charged following an alleged serious assault of a young girl. There were reports the man had a deportation order issued against him earlier this year.

In Minnesota, mom to the rescue. As her daughter was being dropped off, a mother noticed smoke and flames coming from under the bus. She and the driver quickly worked to get everyone off. All 22 elementary school students gathered on her front porch as they waited for the fire department to arrive. The mother said it moved pretty fast. It was probably within 15 minutes that the thing was engulfed. It was crazy to see the tires and hear the tires -- fire, she said, and hear the tires explode. Look at that.

All right, that's a patient with Parkinson's disease playing the clarinet while undergoing brain surgery. I think Sanjay has talked a lot about this. The London hospital says the operation took four hours implanting electrodes in the patient's brain. The BBC says they had her play to fine-tune the position of the electrodes that they were placing deep inside the brain there. They could tell if they were doing a better job because the playing got better, right. And it did improve immediately. And she sounded just great.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: It really is remarkable to see in those medical advancements.

So, let's turn to this right now.

New this morning, one of the officers who helped thwart a potential mass shooting at the busiest airport in the world is now speaking out, saying her training kicked in at the perfect moment.

[08:55:03]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OFFICER MYESHA BANKS, ATLANTA POLICE DEPARTMENT: It might sound, you know, strange, but as a police officer, and all the training, I was -- I was scared. It was -- it was fearful for a second. Just knowing the size difference, just knowing, you know, there are -- there are things that can possibly happen. And you have those scenarios in your mind as a trained police officer. You think of what can happen in seconds. I mean it moved so fast. So, as I put my hand on his back, that's when I knew, OK -- OK, it's time. It's time to put the cuffs on him. It's time -- this is the person.

I felt that whatever he had in his mind that he was going to do, I was there to stop it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And thank goodness for Officer Banks and the others, because, as a reminder, just take in these details. You're looking at body camera video right there. The family of Billy Joe Cagle called police Monday morning to report that he was armed, live streaming, and headed to the Atlanta airport, and that he said he was going to possibly, quote, "shoot up the airport."

And surveillance video shows him walking around a crowded terminal before he is confronted by Officer Banks, by officers. Now, police say he was not armed when they found him, but they did find his truck parked right outside the terminal. And inside, an AR-15 with 27 rounds of ammunition. He is now facing federal charges.

Joining us right now for more on this is the mayor of Atlanta, Andre Dickens.

Mayor, thanks for being here.

How close was this to disaster? The details are remarkable.

MAYOR ANDRE DICKENS (D) ATLANTA: Yes, thank God that this crisis was averted. Thank you to Officer Banks and Gibson and to their major and -- and -- and for everyone involved in this. This could have been another mass shooting in the United States of America. And at this time, it could have been at the world's busiest and most efficient airport, Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport, right there with 27 rounds. This man had said that he wanted to shoot up the airport. And so, thankfully, his family called Cartersville Police Department, where they live, and Cartersville called Atlanta Police Department. And the -- the busy airport, everyone still got to work to try to figure out, who is this guy. Because they were walking around with just his driver's license, looking for a man that fits this description. And thankfully, they found him and took him down. And when they went to his vehicle, which was right on the curb, they saw an assault weapon with 27 rounds that could have killed 27 people.

BOLDUAN: The security experts that I've been talking to since this, one, applauding everyone involved. And thankfully, for the family, they -- they saw something, if you will, and said something. But they also raised -- when you talk about the truck, they've talked about this since it happened, is that one big question mark that sticks out in their mind, why was he able to park his truck right outside the terminal on the curb, especially knowing from the surveillance video we've seen he was inside the terminal for 30-ish minutes before approached by police.

DICKENS: Yes, so he parked outside the airport terminal. And before he came back in, he had already received a ticket. So, there was a ticket waiting for him to come back. But we were notified by Cartersville Police Department that there's an individual that fits this description that is inside of the terminal, and he means to do harm to all these people. And so, the training of the officers, the training of the staff, everyone went to work to be able to find this individual.

And, yes, his truck was out there with, you know, a ticket on it because he was illegally parked. But no one that gives the tickets are the ones that knows that he had an AR-15 inside of there, and that he was going to try to come back and shoot up the airport.

We're just grateful that, you know, we have 300,000 passengers every single day, 110 million a year, and this crisis was averted.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Absolutely, Mayor.

With that in mind, do policies and practices, do you think, would you like to see, need to be changed at Hartsfield Jackson in the wake of this? Even just looking at, I don't know, the truck issue being parked outside, rather than a ticket, maybe something more happens.

DICKENS: Well, first of all, we -- I mean we have to fix mental health in this country. And we have an obsession with guns. So, we have an open carry law here in the -- in the state of Georgia. People can walk around anywhere in this state, whether it's a school, a daycare. They can walk around the world's busiest airport with an assault weapon. And we have to deal with that in this state.

Luckily, we brought down violent crime and homicides are 44 percent down. But people can have access to guns, and there are so many people that are mentally challenged in America and in Georgia that, you know, a man that's in our region, not a man that lives in the city of Atlanta, but he's, you know, an hour away from Atlanta. He can drive into the world's busiest airport and, you know, could inflict harm. And so, we have to come to an agreement. It's not a partisan issue.

[09:00:00]

Mental health is showing up in so many places.

If you think a month ago, a mentally deranged man shot up the CDC and ended up killing a Dekalb County officer.