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Hearing Resumes Over National Guard Troops in Chicago; GOP Senator: Terrible Optics from Trump $23 Million Ask from DOJ; Government Shutdown is Now Second-Longest in U.S. History; Amazon Aims to Replace Half a Million People with Robots. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired October 22, 2025 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN HOST: We're currently waiting for a hearing to get back going in Chicago where federal prosecutors and Chicago officials will discuss the next steps related to President Trump's deployment of the National Guard in the city. The President wants to send troops into Chicago, but city leaders sued and were granted a temporary restraining order. That order, though, expires tomorrow.

The President is also asking the Supreme Court to intervene.

Joining me now is former Democratic Illinois Congressman and retired Army Major General William Enyart. He's a former Adjutant General of the Illinois National Guard and Commanding Air and Army National Guard. Thank you for taking the time.

[14:35:00]

You know, I just want to start with what we were just -- we're waiting for this hearing to get back going. But you're the former head of the National Guard in Illinois. How are you processing this current dynamic that we're seeing between the Trump administration and not just Illinois, but other states in this country right now?

MAJOR GEN. WILLIAM ENYART (RET.), FORMER ADJUTANT GENERAL, ILLINOIS NATIONAL GUARD: Well, this is certainly an interesting dispute between the states and the federal government, and it looks to me like a vast overreach for the federal government. And, in fact, the U.S. District Court judge in Chicago has found just that, and she was affirmed by, essentially affirmed, by the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals, also headquartered in Chicago. And it was a unanimous vote there with one of the appellate judges being appointed by Trump. So, clearly, the president has not met any of the requirements in order to mobilize the Guard and bring them in in this situation.

JIMENEZ: But, you know, an appeals court in Oregon -- or for Oregon, I should say, ruled allowing the Trump administration to deploy National Guard troops to Portland. Timing still unclear, as there are a few other things to sort out, but also plays into what he said recently, that, quote, I can send the National Guard if I see problems. How do you see it, and how do you view President Trump's understanding of his relationship with the Guard? ENYART: Well, I think there's a real, very real problem there. The president thinks he has virtually unlimited powers, and he doesn't have unlimited powers. There are statutes that govern this.

In fact, the Constitution governs some of these issues. So the president needs to be reminded that he is not a king, he does not have unlimited powers, and that in order to deploy the Guard, certain requirements need to be met. Among them are that, in the Chicago instance, there is no rebellion, there is no invasion by a foreign power, and the local authorities have the situation well in hand, as was found by the trial court judge.

And you need to remember that appellate courts don't find facts. They determine whether the trial judge has ruled properly, but they're not a fact finder, and neither is the Supreme Court, and they shouldn't be, because they don't have the evidence before them. They simply have the record before them.

So the president is clearly going far beyond any authorities that he may have and needs to be reined in by the appellate courts and by the Supreme Court.

JIMENEZ: You know, you recently testified at the end of September to the Senate Judiciary Committee, and I'm quoting a little bit of it here. But you said that to misuse our troops is to, quote, breach those bonds of trust, and quote, we're one trigger pull away from another Kent state, don't let it happen.

And to be clear, to this point, we haven't seen anything close to that, but with these latest tensions, it's obviously a very serious framing that, given your resume, I can't ignore. Why do you see it that way?

ENYART: Well, you know, first of all, the National Guard is not trained in civilian police enforcement. The National Guard is a combat force. In fact, at one point during the Iraq war, the Army National Guard provided more than half of the combat power for the United States Army in Iraq.

We are trained to be soldiers. We also have another duty. Our first duty is to defend the United States of America against foreign adversaries.

Our second duty is to provide a trained, ready force for the governor to use when he sees fit, when that governor sees fit, not when the president of the United States sees fit. And typically, those have been earthquakes, tornadoes, floods, along the Mississippi River here in Illinois, or hurricanes.

So those are the missions that we train for, the missions that we have been equipped for. We're not trained nor equipped to be civilian law enforcement officers.

JIMENEZ: And, you know, in Tennessee, the governor did green light the National Guard to Memphis, which goes in tandem with the president. Do you see that scenario any differently, especially with a governor sort of being commander-in-chief of a non-federalized National Guard?

ENYART: Well, that is a more complex situation than it is in Chicago, where both the mayor and the governor are saying that the Guard is not necessary. So what are the reasons that the Guard might be called up in Memphis? What the president has claimed his reasons are, and he's really had two different reasons.

One is crime is out of control and that we need the National Guard to stop this crime. So that's reason number one.

[14:40:00]

Well, that -- crime is not any more out of control than it was a year ago or four months ago, six months ago, ten years ago. And in fact, crime rates have decreased. And as I mentioned before, the National Guard is not a police agency.

The second issue is, well, he's claiming that he needs to protect ICE agents and he needs to protect federal property. Well, the Illinois State Police and the Cook County Sheriff's Department, the local police authorities, are doing an excellent job of protecting that property.

Now, we've got established protocols in how you call the Guard up. When a local situation needs National Guard reinforcements, the mayor, the local chief executive, either the mayor or the county executive, makes that determination, calls the governor, and asks for help. Trump is reversing that entire thing.

He's sitting a thousand miles away and decided that he wants to call the National Guard up. It's the local authorities who are responsible for making those requests because, after all, they have eyes on the ground.

JIMENEZ: Sorry to jump in, but that's typically what we see is the local officials' requests, and then when a Guard is actually deployed to help with the situation. I've got to leave the conversation there. Retired Major General William Enyart, thanks for taking the time.

ENYART: Absolutely. Good to be with you.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: New today, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is taking another step in his communications crackdown at the Pentagon. According to a memo that was signed by the secretary and obtained by CNN, the Pentagon is now ordering nearly all Defense Department personnel to get prior approval before talking to Congress or state lawmakers.

The memo says quote, "Unauthorized engagements with Congress by [Defense Department] personnel acting in their official capacity, no matter how well-intentioned, may undermine Department-wide priorities critical to achieving our legislative objectives."

The move comes after dozens of reporters, including from CNN, turned in their press passes last week over the Pentagon's restrictive new media access rules, which forced them to sign a pledge not to obtain or use any unauthorized material, even if the information is unclassified.

Still ahead, CNN's new reporting that some GOP lawmakers are now calling on President Trump to jump in and help jumpstart the stalled process in the government shutdown. We'll break down the strategy as the impasse reaches day 22.

[14:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: New today, at least one Republican senator is now publicly pushing back as President Trump reportedly seeks $230 million from the Justice Department for past investigations into him. Here's North Carolina's Tom Tillis.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): I think it's terrible optics, particularly right now. We're talking about a quarter of a billion dollars transferring maybe to the President when we're in a shutdown posture. So it's at very best bad timing, but I think it's horrible optics.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: All right, Marc Short joins us now. He's served as former Chief of Staff to Vice President Mike Pence, White House Legislative Affairs Director during the first Trump administration and is currently Board Chair of Advancing American Freedom. Good to see you.

MARC SHORT, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO VP MIKE PENCE: Thanks for having me.

JIMENEZ: So let's just pick up where Manu left off there with Senator Tillis. Because there are lawmakers a little nervous, wary of President Trump seeking $230 million from his own Justice Department in the middle of a government shutdown potentially. I just wonder how you interpret what we've learned to this point and what you would be saying to the President right now.

SHORT: I think the timing's wrong. I think you're probably right on that. I think as well that the family has certainly accrued a lot of wealth from transactions with crypto and other things with foreign investors currently during this administration.

So I think it looks odd when you're accumulating enormous wealth and asking taxpayers to pay off those bills in the midst of a shutdown. And there are also a lot of people that incurred hefty legal bills as a result of January 6th that are not getting compensation.

KEILAR: And speaking of the shutdown, yes, I was going to say just the timing, but then you outlined a series of other things as well there. On the shutdown, there's this Reuters-Ipsos poll that shows 50 percent of Americans think Republicans deserve most of the blame for the shutdown, 43 percent for Democrats. What do you think right now of this breakdown, of how Americans are seeing who's to blame? SHORT: Well, Brianna, I think it's one of the reasons that we've been so prolonged and probably not going to resolve this for probably another 10 days until we get to that November 1st time when premiums go out. Because traditionally I think Republicans have instigated these shutdowns and they've gotten a lot more of the public blame. Right now it's pretty divided, and I think Republicans feel like, look, we passed a bill to fund the government. Democrats are trying to hold it hostage. They need to come to the table.

I think Democrats look at that poll and say, you know, a lot of Americans want to see Obamacare subsidies extended. If we can make it to November 1st, we're on the winning side there.

And so I think you continue to see, not just impasse, but actually lack of conversation to resolve it.

JIMENEZ: Well, and, you know, that divide, you know, close but divided as far as that poll goes. I mean, there's no indication that it stays the same, and obviously both sides are calculating, you know, how long can we wait this out to get what our side wants. But there are calls for President Trump to get involved, to take a more direct role in the negotiating aspect of this.

We haven't quite seen that to this point outside of a few comments here and there. Is that something you would support at this point, or how do you see it?

SHORT: From a White House perspective, I think they've handled it exactly right. I think they've handled this, you know, frankly, better than the first administration.

[14:50:00]

I think right now the President, what the American people see, is the President engaging in ceasefire success in Gaza and the Middle East. They see the President negotiating with Zelenskyy and wanting now to enter onto a trip in China and address major trade issues. They see him on a much higher level as opposed to the dysfunctional Congress.

JIMENEZ: On that point, do you worry that some could say, yes, there are wins in that, but, you know, he's getting ready to go to South Korea, he's been focused on Ukraine, he has the Israel win as well, that he's focused on all these other priorities. What about us, the government workers and Americans?

SHORT: Sure, but I do think that that's predominantly a dysfunctional Congress, getting that passed. And so I think that from a White House perspective, just the sheer politics, Omar, I think he actually looks like he's more international, and I think he rises above it. I think it's the right approach politically for him.

KEILAR: But if they want him to get involved, right?

SHORT: Well, I think that's a mixed blessing.

KEILAR: Because let me -- let's just look at this, because you've been -- you know The Hill and you know the White House, and they have different interests on The Hill, right? They're feeling different kinds of pressure --

SHORT: Yes.

KEILAR: -- from this. And you say it is a mixed blessing, but they're feeling the squeeze up there.

SHORT: They are, but here's why I think it's a mixed blessing, is because I think the reality is that government-run health care has proven to be a disaster. It's proven to be bankrupt, and it's a failure. But I think that the White House is probably more willing to cut a deal with Democrats to extend the subsidies --

KEILAR: Which government-run health care is a disaster?

SHORT: Obamacare. Obamacare has proven to be a disaster, and I think you basically -- you know, we started with basically telling insurance companies to get on board -- the Democrats did -- to say we're going to have subsidies for you for 400 percent of poverty level.

That was extended of that during COVID. You now have 12 million subscribers who didn't get any sort of claim, yet that money is still passed on to insurance companies of $35 billion that taxpayers are funding. It's been a total disaster.

KEILAR: It's private health care, let's be clear. I mean, just to be clear, it's not government --

SHORT: There's so -- there's no such thing anymore.

KEILAR: I hear what you're saying.

SHORT: There's no such thing as private versus public.

KEILAR: I don't know.

SHORT: There's so much government support for it now.

KEILAR: I'm on Tricare, and I've been on private, and there's a huge difference, so I will tell you that.

SHORT: There's so much government support of it across the board now.

KEILAR: No, that's right. There is obviously --

SHORT: It's hard to argue there's really anything that's private anymore.

KEILAR: There was a mandate, there are subsidies, so now there are tentacles, but they're not the same thing.

SHORT: But there's nothing as such as private anymore. It is all intermingled with government support now.

KEILAR: The formulary is different. We will keep going on this, Marc Short, in the commercial break, our newest podcast. OK, Marc Short, thank you so much.

Still ahead, science fiction becoming a workplace reality. Amazon's plan to replace hundreds of thousands of jobs with robots. We'll have details when we come back.

[14:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JIMENEZ: A new report from the New York Times says Amazon is planning to replace more than a half a million jobs with robots, according to internal company documents seen by Times reporters. Amazon, though, is pushing back, telling CNN the documents don't give a complete picture of its hiring strategy. The company also denies it's telling staffers to avoid the term robot and use the word "cobot" instead to imply collaborating with humans in a bid to avoid fallout with those humans.

Let's turn to a great human, CNN tech reporter Clare Duffy. Clare, can you just tell us about Amazon's reported automation plans, what we know about it, and what we don't?

CLARE DUFFY, CNN TECH REPORTER: Yes, Omar, according to these documents that the Times obtained, Amazon believes its AI investments are going to make it possible to avoid hiring 600,000 people it would otherwise need to hire over the next eight years. Despite the fact that the company plans to double the amount of products it's selling in that time. This report also includes that Amazon is looking to automate 75 percent of its warehouse operations in the coming future, and this could be a really significant impact on the human workers. Amazon is one of the country's biggest employees -- employers.

Now, Amazon is pushing back on this, as you said, saying this paints a misleading picture of its hiring strategy. Here's what a company spokesperson told me.

She said, "The materials appear to reflect the perspective of just one team and don't represent our overall hiring strategy across our various operations business lines -- now or moving forward. No company has created more jobs in America over the past decade than Amazon."

But the thing is, we've heard things like this from Amazon before. Amazon CEO Andy Jassy said back in June in a memo to employees that he believes efficiencies created by the company's AI technology will allow it to have a smaller human workforce in the future.

And as I talk to experts in this space about what this is likely to look like in the near term, a lot of what I'm hearing is that big tech companies like Amazon will likely just be able to stop hiring more employees and continue their growth trajectory. And this is something we're already seeing if you look at Amazon's hiring over the last five years.

I think we've got some charts we can bring up. You can see that Amazon's human workforce has essentially flattened out while its revenues continue to climb. And so I think that's the sort of thing, just slower hiring by these companies that we're likely to see in the coming years, although those bigger layoffs and human job losses could be a sort of longer-term future reality that people are going to have to deal with.

JIMENEZ: And Clare Duffy, yes, showing that chart of human workforce, I think already setting the standard for what we may be examining in the time to come. There's the chart there. Human workforce flat, Amazon revenues up.

Clare Duffy, appreciate it.

END