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Soon: Trump Set to Welcome NATO Chief to White House; U.S. Strikes Boat Alleged of Drug Trafficking in Pacific; Rep. Katherine Clark (D-MA) Discusses About Obamacare; Govt Shutdown Now 22 Days, 2nd-Longest on Record; Leavitt Accuses Dems of "Intentionally Causing" Shutdown. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired October 22, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN HOST: ... for what we may be examining in the time to come. There's the chart there. There's a chart there. Human Workforce flat, Amazon Revenues up. Clare Duffy, appreciate the reporting, as always.

A whole lot more news. We are following a new hour of CNN NEWS CENTRAL starts right now.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: President Trump hosting NATO Secretary General at the White House today as Russia launches another deadly attack on Ukraine.

Plus, the U.S. military expanding its campaign against alleged drug- smuggling vessels. Another boat has been taken out, and this time it's in the Pacific. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth says two people on board were killed.

And a fight over NASA's future turns into an online brawl. Why Elon Musk is bashing one of the President's cabinet members?

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

Next hour, President Trump is welcoming NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte to the White House, and their meeting is coming as the administration is reversing course on that idea of a second summit between Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Trump says another summit between the two could be a, quote, "waste of time." The Kremlin, though, says preparations are ongoing. We have CNN's Kristen Holmes at the White House.

Kristen, some mixed messages there from the two. What are officials hoping to accomplish in this NATO meeting today?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, clearly, Ukraine and Russia is going to be at the center of all of this. We know that Rutte just met with a number of bipartisan senators on Capitol Hill and essentially said that when it comes to the war in Ukraine, he believes that Donald Trump is the only person who can bring peace. But as you noted, we are in a back-and-forth here and have been. Now,

Rutte was also specifically asked about the White House's reversal in its stance, essentially if he was concerned that Trump had urged Zelenskyy to go softer on Russia, and he ignored those questions.

But just to give a timeline here of where we stand, right now we are told there are no plans for this meeting to happen in any capacity in the immediate future. That doesn't mean it's off the table completely. But remember, President Trump had said a meeting with him and Vladimir Putin was going to happen in two weeks or so or happen very quickly.

So likely here, the center of this conversation is going to be what exactly was talked about in the meetings with Zelenskyy and on that phone conversation with Putin and where to go from here. I think that was pretty telling, what we heard from President Trump yesterday after days of touting, sitting down with Putin, this idea that he didn't want to waste his time.

Now, of course, we realize he's meeting with the Secretary General of NATO. Likely also on the agenda will be how to best protect Ukraine, which is something that Rutte cares deeply about.

KEILAR: All right, Kristen Holmes, live for us at the White House, thank you. Omar?

JIMENEZ: We're also following some breaking news. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth announcing the U.S. carried out a new military strike on an alleged drug trafficking boat, this time in the Pacific Ocean. Officials say the operation on Tuesday killed both people on board, but it marks the eighth known U.S. strike on an alleged drug smuggling vessel since the beginning of September, but the first in the Pacific.

I want to talk more about all of this with retired Army Major Mike Lyons. So, let's start there, what do you make of this apparent expansion of the military's campaign against alleged drug trafficking into the Eastern Pacific?

MAJOR MIKE LYONS, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Omar, it should come as no surprise that the administration finds a target out in the Eastern part of the Pacific and -- and goes after it. Two major highways coming from South America on -- on the -- on the water to America. One is through the Caribbean, where we saw the initial strikes take place, but out on the other side of that, in the Eastern part of the Pacific, up along the -- the Western side of the Mexican coastline is another highway there.

Not a lot of islands to hide behind. It's probably a fast boat that had to -- to try to maneuver out of it, but it's showing capability. This administration is always looking to project power, project deterrence. It said it was going after narco-terrorists, so this should not come as any surprise that they've expanded this capability onto that -- that -- that Eastern side of the Pacific, the other side of the highway.

JIMENEZ: And as we've sort of been talking about here, this is hardly the first time a strike has happened in this manner, though predominantly in the Caribbean to this point. You know, the SOUTHCOM commander is resigning. We -- we don't know why he's stepping down, but we do know Hegseth did not believe Admiral Holsey was moving quickly or aggressively enough to combat drug traffickers in the Caribbean.

[15:05:03]

Just -- what do we know about the leader of Indo-Pacific Command, and -- and is that a dynamic that would prompt someone to step down or feel like they can't move forward with their job in a proper way?

LYONS: If the Admiral felt that he couldn't do that, if he couldn't -- if his heart wasn't in it, he wouldn't -- he wasn't ready to accomplish the mission, and he knows the intent of the Commander-in- Chief (INAUDIBLE) Secretary of War, then he should step down.

So, I -- I think that's -- that's a positive step if that is all to come to be. I know he was there for a while, very highly competent Admiral, and obviously wouldn't be in that job if he wasn't the right person to begin with. But for -- as he's looking at the missions and looking at what they were doing, perhaps he had a problem with it. So, we'll have a new leader in there, and we'll see how long these missions go on. We'll see if it deters the narco-terrorists from bringing drugs and paraphernalia from South America through those venues.

JIMENEZ: And that has been the sort of purported mission from the Trump administration to this point, at least what they've projected. And -- and one of the things that Secretary Hegseth wrote was just as Al-Qaeda waged war on our homeland, these cartels are waging war on our border and our people.

Look, no one -- I don't think anyone is disputing that -- that cartels can bring violence or -- or dangerous organizations. But what do you make of -- of that comparison in particular?

LYONS: Omar, these are tactical strikes. That's first and foremost. If you're going after the strategic capability of the -- the narco- terrorists and those cartels, you -- you have to go after the sources. You have to go and -- you have to go where they produce the drugs. You have to go a little deeper besides this transportation, the supply chain.

I think they all know that. So, this is, again, an easy way for the administration to project power. But if they're going to defeat these kinds of -- of operations, for example, that the drug cartels are doing, it's going to take strategic kind of things and not just these little tactical victories, which again, are no match. There's no match of these small boats against the Navy assets that we have in the sea there.

JIMENEZ: Well, and, you know, some of the criticisms of these strikes to this point is -- is to the outside world -- it seems like these are -- are purposely publicized, perhaps in a -- in a deterrent fashion, as we've talked about. But also, that it's sort of shoot first, ask questions later in -- in the sense that, you know, they were survivors of another alleged drug boat attack and they were repatriated as opposed to questioned over potentially their role in -- in a form of cartel that would be targeted here.

And really the -- the question seems to be now, the Trump administration produce a classified legal opinion seeking to justify these legal strikes and they treat the drug traffickers as enemy combatants who can be summarily killed without any kind of judicial review. Is there room here for additional oversight by Congress or -- or otherwise, or -- or does this fall squarely in the executive branch here?

LYONS: Yes, I think there could be. I -- I think, you know, their ends justify the means excuse here right now is -- is what they're going with. And these are really one-off missions that we're seeing. They're not large-scale operations. Surely it's to say that they fall under the laws of land warfare is likely a stretch, but the President and the executive branch has this power to do this. And he's extending that as -- as far as he can take it right now.

He has a secretary of war who's all into this for sure. He's into putting out those press releases. He's into showing U.S. capability to take these -- these boats out. So, I'm going to let the lawyers decide. I know how legal that's going to be. There will -- there will be people that argue that even though it's an international waters, these don't pose a threat until they actually hit the United States. By that time, this administration says it's too late.

JIMENEZ: It's usually a smart call to let the lawyers decide. So, I will -- I will second you on -- on that front.

Major Mike Lyons, appreciate the time and perspective as always.

LYONS: Thanks so much.

JIMENEZ: Still to come, the government shutdown in its 22nd day with no end in sight. Democrats insist it's up to Republicans and the President to negotiate with them. The Democratic Minority Whip will join us live.

Plus, opening statements are underway in the trial of the former Illinois police officer who killed Sonya Massey, a black woman who had called 911 for help. We'll bring you details there.

And later, the Louvre reopens to tourists as the museum's director speaks out about why they weren't able to detect and stop the thieves who stole millions of dollars' worth of jewels, that and much more coming up on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:14:02]

KEILAR: Roughly 1.4 million Americans are now facing day 22 of being furloughed or working without pay and if Congress doesn't fund the government in the next several days, many will miss their first full paycheck. Time is also running out for 42 million Americans who rely on SNAP benefits to feed their families. Money for the food assistance program runs out next month and WIC, which helps nearly seven million pregnant women. New moms and children could also run out of money in weeks.

Democratic Whip Congresswoman Katherine Clark is joining us now.

Congresswoman, first off, just how much of an Obamacare subsidy extension is acceptable to Democratic leadership?

REP. KATHERINE CLARK (D-MA): Yes. Listen, I will tell you the same thing that we have been telling the American people and the Republicans here in Congress. Come and negotiate with us. Let's figure this out.

[15:14:57]

We are desperately trying to get them to return to the Capitol to do their jobs, and come, and negotiate and avoid this health care crisis that they have imposed on the American people. But we are not being met with anything that we can accept, reject, continue to work on together. They're just absolutely refusing to even come to Washington.

And it is such arrogance, it is such disdain for the people who sent them there that their response is, listen, we passed our budget and we took tremendous cuts from health care, from the food programs you just referenced, in order to fund permanent tax breaks for the very wealthiest Americans and corporations. And we are not going to come even to the table to discuss how we can reprioritize the needs of American people who are telling us over and over they are not making it in this economy.

So, come to the table. Let's have those discussions. I wish we had some offer, even the promise of getting together in order to make those discussions happen and get us to solutions.

KEILAR: Okay. I didn't hear an answer to the question, but I want to ask you about something else, which is White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt just posted a clip of an interview that you did on Fox last week. You were answering a question from Fox's Chad Pergram about blame for the shutdown. I want to look at the post here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLARK: I mean, shutdowns are terrible and -- and -- and, of course, there will be, you know, families that are going to suffer. We take that responsibility very seriously, but it is one of the few leveraged times we have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Leavitt is looking especially at that last bit you said there, saying that Democrats, quote, "are now admitting that they are intentionally causing American families to suffer with their reckless government shutdown." What's your response to that?

CLARK: Well, that is right out of her playbook of half-truths, taking things out of context and not being straight with the American people. And she knows what I said. And I will tell you and your viewers.

This is a point where we can no longer support the budget of the Republicans that takes away health care from millions of people, makes life harder and more expensive for every American, all to give their permanent tax breaks to the very wealthiest while driving up our deficit. We voted no to their budget in March. We voted no to their budget in July. And we voted no to their budget at the end of September.

This is exactly what we have been saying to them. They made a promise. The President's words love -- he would love and cherish Medicaid. They would lower costs for Americans on day one.

And what they are doing is the exact opposite. They have taken terrible cuts, not only to the health care for Americans, to the food programs, but also to federal workers. And now somehow we're supposed to believe they have this -- they are the newfound champion of federal workers and people who work for a living in this country when we have 60 percent of households that aren't able to afford the basics. Democrats are saying, come to the table.

And to directly answer your last question, I am not going to negotiate on TV when I have Republicans who won't even show up. That's not an insult to me. That's an insult to the people who sent them here to represent them, to be their voice in these corridors that are empty of my colleagues. That is just showing absolute disrespect for the hardworking people of this country who are watching this president and his loyalists in Congress make life so hard for them.

So, that is what this no vote on their budget is about. It is about ...

KEILAR: Right. I will say ...

CLARK: ... making sure that we address this issue.

KEILAR: ... we know -- Congresswoman -- Hakeem Jeffries, I will note, has ruled out a one-year extension. So, there has been some talk about what will not be accepted. You talked about the things at stake, and we covered certainly what was in that budget and the cuts in that budget. But there's also a lot at stake in this shutdown. And last year, there were more than 1.1 million people in Massachusetts using SNAP, which is commonly referred to as food stamps.

My colleague John Berman spoke to Democratic Senator John Fetterman this morning about who's to blame in all of this. And here's what he said.

[15:20:05]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): I don't care if it's the Republicans doing that or my own party doing those things. I think that's the truth, that our government must be open and we can negotiate all of these very important kinds of priorities. (END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Fetterman said he's fighting for both the 2 million Pennsylvanians who are on SNAP and also the 420,000 Pennsylvanians who are receiving the ACA subsidies that you all are demanding an extension to. And he says it's fundamentally wrong to shut the government down, which is something Democrats have argued in the past when Republicans are doing it.

At this point in time, because of this budget, we hear you. We hear Democrats saying it's different. It's not fundamentally wrong. Explain that. I mean, why -- why? And why do you think that John Fetterman has it wrong here?

CLARK: Here's the difference between this shutdown and this administration and from others that I've served under and that we've certainly seen in recent history. We have a president who, from the moment he took office, has been using the budget, which it is federal law and under the Constitution, that we here in Congress set the budget as his private slush fund. He takes it from programs he doesn't like. He gives it to programs he does like. We've watched this very recently in the Department of Education, where he has decimated special education funding in this country, something that many, many parents and schools deserve and need in order to provide for all of our students.

He has done this over and over again. And so, at each point in this budget process, we have said, you have to abide by the law. You have to respect that we are voted and elected to represent people. And that when Congress sets budgets, setting the levels for SNAP, for -- for our veterans' benefits, for health care in this country, that is something that you should abide by.

Not only does he not do that, he uses his bully pulpit to take more from the American people.

KEILAR: So, is Senator Fetterman wrong?

CLARK: I believe that we are in a situation here where if Senator Fetterman sees no difference in how this administration is approaching this budget and acting lawfully and constitutionally and putting the needs of the American people first and any other administration, I certainly disagree with him about that. Because what we're seeing here is a Speaker Johnson in the House when we said we cannot, we -- you know, we have opposed this budget at every single point, but let's not shut down government. Let's come together and talk about this. His response, he has shut down the House. He has shut down the House and said, I simply don't care. I don't care what happens to federal workers. I don't care what happens to these SNAP programs. I don't care what happens to people's health care.

And so, the idea that somehow when they control the House, the Senate, and the White House, that this is on Democrats is really a preposterous one to me. And they have -- you have seen them try to cover for their inexcusable strategy of taking health care funding, of taking food programs away from our kids and our seniors in order to fund tax cuts. That is the strategy. That is what they are doing.

And the fact that they are inflicting even more pain and injecting further cruelty by threatening to not repay people who -- federal workers who are working without pay, it just further shows the callousness on which they view working people. At the same time, we have a president who ...

KEILAR: Congresswoman ...

CLARK: ... what is he talking about? He's talking about building a ballroom. Let that sink in for working people in this country.

KEILAR: Democratic Whip Katherine Clark, thank you so much for being with us.

CLARK: Thank you, Brianna.

KEILAR: And a mea culpa from the director of the Louvre, what she said about the quote, "terrible failures" that led to that stunning jewelry heist.

[15:24:51]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:29:28]

KEILAR: The Louvre in Paris is back open to visitors just days after thieves stole eight pieces from the French crown jewels worth more than $100 million. And as the hunt for the thieves and the jewels continues, the museum's director faced French lawmakers today amid growing criticism over the Louvre's security. CNN Senior International Correspondent Melissa Bell has the latest.

MELISSA BELL, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The director of France's Louvre museum has been defending herself in front of a Senate committee explaining that she tendered her resignation in the wake of Sunday morning's dramatic heist. It had been refused, she said, by the culture minister.

[15:30:04]

Both women are saying, the culture minister and the director of the Louvre, that the security systems function ...